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Forgive Us Our....

ChezC3

ChezC3

Relentless Thinking Fury
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Here's an interesting phenomenon I've noticed back when I was kicking it around with protesters...

When in a Methodist Church, a Bible-based church, a Nazarene Church, the Our Father has the words "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who'd trespass against us"

This is the same as in the Catholic Church.

Now, when I went to a Reform Church, (Dutch reform, them crazy Calvinists) it was "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors"


Now, I know some Hollanders, they can pinch a penny those people can....so this makes me wonder...

Is this change in wording found in any other denomination? Or is it exclusive to the penny pinching Dutch?

and if so, why?
 
ChezC3 said:
Here's an interesting phenomenon I've noticed back when I was kicking it around with protesters...

When in a Methodist Church, a Bible-based church, a Nazarene Church, the Our Father has the words "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who'd trespass against us"

This is the same as in the Catholic Church.

Now, when I went to a Reform Church, (Dutch reform, them crazy Calvinists) it was "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors"


Now, I know some Hollanders, they can pinch a penny those people can....so this makes me wonder...

Is this change in wording found in any other denomination? Or is it exclusive to the penny pinching Dutch?

and if so, why?
Click to expand...

Means the same thing stated either way. Debts, trespasses and similar words in this case refer to sins.
 
ChezC3 said:
Now, when I went to a Reform Church, (Dutch reform, them crazy Calvinists) it was "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors"


Now, I know some Hollanders, they can pinch a penny those people can....so this makes me wonder...

Is this change in wording found in any other denomination? Or is it exclusive to the penny pinching Dutch?

and if so, why?
Click to expand...

I don't know if it's found in other denominations, but I don't think I'd read too much into it, as sins, trespasses, debts, and other representations of wrongdoing are just different terms for the same concept. I prefer one of the simpler terms myself: missing the mark. Iow, forgive me when I don't aim and shoot perfectly, as I forgive others for their imperfections as well.
 
humbolt said:
Means the same thing stated either way. Debts, trespasses and similar words in this case refer to sins.
Click to expand...

Since when did having (or collecting on) a debt become a sin?
 
lizzie said:
I don't know if it's found in other denominations, but I don't think I'd read too much into it, as sins, trespasses, debts, and other representations of wrongdoing are just different terms for the same concept. I prefer one of the simpler terms myself: missing the mark. Iow, forgive me when I don't aim and shoot perfectly, as I forgive others for their imperfections as well.
Click to expand...

I think 'missing the mark' is like someone attempting to do good. It sounds more appropriate to me.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Since when did having (or collecting on) a debt become a sin?
Click to expand...

Debt in this case refers to a debt in sin in much the same way a trespass refers to one venturing into an area which is forbidden. In both cases they are referring to sin. The intent of the prayer in this section is to make the supplicant aware that forgiveness of sin by God is in proportion to the supplicant's forgiveness of others who have sinned against the supplicant. Prolly could've said that a little better...
 
ChezC3 said:
Here's an interesting phenomenon I've noticed back when I was kicking it around with protesters...

When in a Methodist Church, a Bible-based church, a Nazarene Church, the Our Father has the words "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who'd trespass against us"

This is the same as in the Catholic Church.

Now, when I went to a Reform Church, (Dutch reform, them crazy Calvinists) it was "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors"


Now, I know some Hollanders, they can pinch a penny those people can....so this makes me wonder...

Is this change in wording found in any other denomination? Or is it exclusive to the penny pinching Dutch?

and if so, why?
Click to expand...

Sometimes translation is a subjective thing. For example, the old Greek version of the Lord's Prayer says, "Give us this day our supersubstantial bread". The word that was translated into Latin as, 'supersubstantialem' didn't exist in Greek, it was invented for the translation of the Aramaic word. Presumably, it didn't make sense to the monk or whomever was making the translation to English so 'daily' was substituted. You'd have to look at the Greek or even Aramaic source to decide if 'trespass' or 'debt' is more accurate.
 
grip said:
I think 'missing the mark' is like someone attempting to do good. It sounds more appropriate to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I really think that for the most part, people have good intentions, even when they do something really stupid. It all just depends on who, how, and where you are, at any given point in time.
 
lizzie said:
Yeah, I really think that for the most part, people have good intentions, even when they do something really stupid. It all just depends on who, how, and where you are, at any given point in time.
Click to expand...

Even when someone steals they're trying to help themselves to be happy. Most ignorant actions ARE out of good intentions. Very few people wake up each morning saying "I want to be miserable today and spread it around."

I remember a saying "Lord help us from good intentioned people."
 
ChezC3 said:
Here's an interesting phenomenon I've noticed back when I was kicking it around with protesters...

When in a Methodist Church, a Bible-based church, a Nazarene Church, the Our Father has the words "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who'd trespass against us"

This is the same as in the Catholic Church.

Now, when I went to a Reform Church, (Dutch reform, them crazy Calvinists) it was "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors"


Now, I know some Hollanders, they can pinch a penny those people can....so this makes me wonder...

Is this change in wording found in any other denomination? Or is it exclusive to the penny pinching Dutch?

and if so, why?
Click to expand...

I think they still mean "trespassers" or those that have wronged them. More people have wronged me financially than any other way, especially friends and family.
 
lizzie said:
I don't know if it's found in other denominations, but I don't think I'd read too much into it, as sins, trespasses, debts, and other representations of wrongdoing are just different terms for the same concept. I prefer one of the simpler terms myself: missing the mark. Iow, forgive me when I don't aim and shoot perfectly, as I forgive others for their imperfections as well.
Click to expand...

I was just interested in the fact that and when I say that I know Hollanders, I mean from the Netherlands, not 2 or 3 generations removed, but knowing their frugal ways and having their denomination catered word wise to equating debt with sin, which, I don't know about you, but I don't necessarily make the connection, I was wondering if there was more to it, theological justification perhaps which equates the two, or if it was just a matter of word choice, trying to be different. (as Calvinists do tend to do to varying extents)
 
ChezC3 said:
I was just interested in the fact that and when I say that I know Hollanders, I mean from the Netherlands, not 2 or 3 generations removed, but knowing their frugal ways and having their denomination catered word wise to equating debt with sin, which, I don't know about you, but I don't necessarily make the connection, I was wondering if there was more to it, theological justification perhaps which equates the two, or if it was just a matter of word choice, trying to be different. (as Calvinists do tend to do to varying extents)
Click to expand...

I do make the connection, but my interest in religion over the past 35 years, has exposed me to many different concepts regarding what "sin" is, so I tend to not focus so much on words, but more on concepts.
 
humbolt said:
Means the same thing stated either way. Debts, trespasses and similar words in this case refer to sins.
Click to expand...

I was told that, but there has to be something more, I'm figuring, that, and please, I mean no offense, but that was the answer I got and figured it was what is simply told to children who couldn't understand higher theological discourse.

"It is because it just is..."
 
grip said:
I think they still mean "trespassers" or those that have wronged them. More people have wronged me financially than any other way, especially friends and family.
Click to expand...

you and me both, bro...
 
Grand Mal said:
Sometimes translation is a subjective thing. For example, the old Greek version of the Lord's Prayer says, "Give us this day our supersubstantial bread". The word that was translated into Latin as, 'supersubstantialem' didn't exist in Greek, it was invented for the translation of the Aramaic word. Presumably, it didn't make sense to the monk or whomever was making the translation to English so 'daily' was substituted. You'd have to look at the Greek or even Aramaic source to decide if 'trespass' or 'debt' is more accurate.
Click to expand...

I actually was aware of that bread translation discrepancy. But yeah, I was trying to figure out if it was a variation from the vernacular or as is often the case a self serving reinterpretation...
 
ChezC3 said:
I was told that, but there has to be something more, I'm figuring, that, and please, I mean no offense, but that was the answer I got and figured it was what is simply told to children who couldn't understand higher theological discourse.

"It is because it just is..."
Click to expand...

I have no doubt there are volumes written concerning the choice of words here. I don't think it's necessary, but that could be a child's view.
 
lizzie said:
I do make the connection, but my interest in religion over the past 35 years, has exposed me to many different concepts regarding what "sin" is, so I tend to not focus so much on words, but more on concepts.
Click to expand...


and see, my journey has shown me more of what sin isn't...

:shrug:

go figure, huh?

I hear ya on the word thing though, but as words convey what's more important -- experience -- the meanings I believe, do have, well, ...meaning.

:)
 
humbolt said:
I have no doubt there are volumes written concerning the choice of words here. I don't think it's necessary, but that could be a child's view.
Click to expand...

"like a child..." Jesus taught, eh?

Like I said, no offense...
 
ChezC3 said:
Here's an interesting phenomenon I've noticed back when I was kicking it around with protesters...

When in a Methodist Church, a Bible-based church, a Nazarene Church, the Our Father has the words "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who'd trespass against us"

This is the same as in the Catholic Church.

Now, when I went to a Reform Church, (Dutch reform, them crazy Calvinists) it was "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors"


Now, I know some Hollanders, they can pinch a penny those people can....so this makes me wonder...

Is this change in wording found in any other denomination? Or is it exclusive to the penny pinching Dutch?

and if so, why?
Click to expand...



Jesus gave a parable using debt as an analogy. It's still about mercy and forgiving those who'd wronged us....that God may show the same to us.



Matthew 18

23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars.[c] 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.

26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.

28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars.[d] He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.

29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.

31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.

35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters[e] from your heart.”


------------------------


Luke 7

Parable of Two Debtors

40 And Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he [a]replied, “Say it, Teacher.” 41 “A moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?” 43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.” And He said to him, “You have judged correctly.”


---------------------------------------------


It's also stated as such, the Lord's Prayer that's given by Matthew.


The Model Prayer

5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:


Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.

10
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.

11
Give us this day our daily bread.

12
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.

13
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c]

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
 
Last edited:
tosca1 said:
Jesus gave a parable using debt as an analogy.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm familiar with the passage, but I'm working on the literal words right now as they can easily be taken at face value for this particular instance. Also, when instructing the disciples on how to speak to the Father, it wouldn't be a time from parable, he would be instructing, that is using his words literally.

Luke the words are sin and indebtedness. In Matthew they actually say debt and debtors, now seeing as Matthew was a tax collector, well, I can kinda see where the debt debtor deal would play. Luke though, that actually equates the two, sin and indebtedness.

So trespass is actually the odd man out yet is most commonly used.

Is it a case than that debt and sin are hand and hand? That if you are in debt, you are in a state of sin?

This is actually the first time I've thought about this with enough gusto to put it in type, so if you have any other passages that could help draw a conclusion one way or the other, I'd appreciate it.


Does debt = sin?

Like I said, I'm looking for the literal answer first, not an analogous or metaphorical one.

and if possible from the RSVCE, or RSV as that is suppose to be the common scholarly used edition...
 
Grand Mal said:
Can't you leave even one thread untarnished by your plodding juvenile hacking?
Click to expand...

You started it with your juvenile comment that I responded to.

As if all good-intentioned people are bad news. Get real.
 
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