choosing the right church

I want to get people's honest take on this as I struggle with it and am curious about other points of view.

I believe in God and Jesus, but I have trouble going to church for a few reasons.

1. The people, they are insufferable. I have been in 20 or so churches looking for a good fit and without a doubt, I find the same people in slightly different clothes. I am a person who is highly sensitive to people and my bull**** antenna is very good and I instinctively understand people very deeply very quickly (my friends think its a bit creepy when I tell them what they are thinking, but I tend to know what the people around me are thinking almost all the time and with a high accuracy). When I go to church, I find nothing but lies and bull****. The people put on a mask and never reveal who they are but instead what the expectations of the situation need them to be. There are exceptions of course, but its all so formulaic, certain types of support and love are expected and people put their game face on and go through the motions. The truth is, people are flawed and they should let themselves show that they are flawed or else there is nothing for people to connect to each other with. (I have a problem with this everywhere and its why I have been lonely most of my life, because I never had tolerance for social convention (instead, I go for truth) and ignoring that scares people and puts them way out of their comfort zone)
2. As a result, I am distracted and have trouble connecting to the moment and finding the spiritual feeling of church. Truth be told, I tend to do better in the shower in the morning when I have my me time and can pray and ask questions and get answers and wisdom. In the quiet times is when I do well, not in groups which distract me and throw off my center.
3. Whenever I pray for help to do this, I get this "its not my path and don't worry about it" feeling, but it still bothers me as as far as I can tell, its what I am supposed to be doing. I can tell when I ask over and over, I get an annoyed and shut up feeling back, so I am trying to find a way to get past it (in other words, get over myself and my doubts and do what is right for my path)

What is your take? I may or may not listen, but my experience thus far is that Churches take me away from God rather than closer because of the feelings of frustration I get from them. I would be happiest just being among friends with a nice cup of coffee and talking sincerely and spontaneously than some formulaic approach to things which may or may not happen to match up with my mood at the moment. Anyone else have experiences like this?

I am the creative, social, and spontaneous type that doesn't do well in structured environments (yet at the same time, I am well rounded, my right side tends to come up with my goals while my left side tends to get engaged in how to achieve those goals, I am also a good engineer, but I am dominant right side, slightly). I respond best to fluid and ever changing situations and I think that is my main problem in this realm.

tacomancer said:

I want to get people's honest take on this as I struggle with it and am curious about other points of view.

I believe in God and Jesus, but I have trouble going to church for a few reasons.

1. The people, they are insufferable. I have been in 20 or so churches looking for a good fit and without a doubt, I find the same people in slightly different clothes. I am a person who is highly sensitive to people and my bull**** antenna is very good and I instinctively understand people very deeply very quickly (my friends think its a bit creepy when I tell them what they are thinking, but I tend to know what the people around me are thinking almost all the time and with a high accuracy). When I go to church, I find nothing but lies and bull****. The people put on a mask and never reveal who they are but instead what the expectations of the situation need them to be. There are exceptions of course, but its all so formulaic, certain types of support and love are expected and people put their game face on and go through the motions. The truth is, people are flawed and they should let themselves show that they are flawed or else there is nothing for people to connect to each other with.
2. As a result, I am distracted and have trouble connecting to the moment and finding the spiritual feeling of church. Truth be told, I tend to do better in the shower in the morning when I have my me time and can pray and ask questions and get answers and wisdom. In the quiet times is when I do well, not in groups which distract me and throw off my center.
3. Whenever I pray for help to do this, I get this "its not my path and don't worry about it" feeling, but it still bothers me as as far as I can tell, its what I am supposed to be doing. I can tell when I ask over and over, I get an annoyed and shut up feeling back, so I am trying to find a way to get past it (in other words, get over myself and my doubts and do what is right for my path)

What is your take? I may or may not listen, but my experience thus far is that Churches take me away from God rather than closer because of the feelings of frustration I get from them. I would be happiest just being among friends with a nice cup of coffee and talking sincerely and spontaneously than some formulaic approach to things which may or may not happen to match up with my mood at the moment. Anyone else have experiences like this?

I am the creative, social, and spontaneous type that doesn't do well in structured environments (yet at the same time, I am well rounded, my right side tends to come up with my goals while my left side tends to get engaged in how to achieve those goals, I am also a good engineer, but I am dominant right side, slightly). I respond best to fluid and ever changing situations and I think that is my main problem in this realm.

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There are churches today with 'modern' or "community" or something like that in the name, that take a different approach to worship services than the established formula (which is after all just traditional, rather than scriptural) and a more casual and open atmosphere... perhaps you should seek some of those out.

I feel your pain. I'm plain-old-Goshin, same today as tomorrow and same here as there, diamond in the rough with shiny spots but flaws too. I don't like plastic people either, and you'll find some of those in any venue.

I've also had trouble finding a permanent home church. We've been through a lot of them locally, and have had trouble settling somewhere.

I want a preacher who preaches the Word and preaches it straight... but with a minimum of his personal opinions and prejudices inserted. He should be a "real guy" and not a plastic saint.

I like the people to be real too. Plain not put-on; friendly but not intrusive.

Don't really like extremism of any sort; nor Prosperity Gospel-ites; nor New Age Feel-Good Everything Is Fine mushy mush types either.


It ain't easy, bein' cheesy.

Goshin said:

There are churches today with 'modern' or "community" or something like that in the name, that take a different approach to worship services than the established formula (which is after all just traditional, rather than scriptural) and a more casual and open atmosphere... perhaps you should seek some of those out.

I feel your pain. I'm plain-old-Goshin, same today as tomorrow and same here as there, diamond in the rough with shiny spots but flaws too. I don't like plastic people either, and you'll find some of those in any venue.

I've also had trouble finding a permanent home church. We've been through a lot of them locally, and have had trouble settling somewhere.

I want a preacher who preaches the Word and preaches it straight... but with a minimum of his personal opinions and prejudices inserted. He should be a "real guy" and not a plastic saint.

I like the people to be real too. Plain not put-on; friendly but not intrusive.

Don't really like extremism of any sort; nor Prosperity Gospel-ites; nor New Age Feel-Good Everything Is Fine mushy mush types either.


It ain't easy, bein' cheesy.

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Yeah, I tried the alternative churches and I found the same people there too. All appearance and all trying to hide their real selves. I don't get it, if you hide who you are, where is the opportunity to grow? That's what I want, real people, real problems, real growth, not some shiny dog and pony show. Its my biggest beef with social conservationism, it all seems so based on lies from an interpersonal standpoint.

Heck, I know God is there. God lead me through the worst year of my life and basically put my personality back together after I lost it all, including myself this time last year (strangely, I am a very different person than I used to be, some of my traits are a full 180 from what I was). I have had God put me to sleep and fix stuff that was deeply wrong in my brain even. (you try desperately asking for an end to something you simply cannot take any more, waking up suddenly two hours later with a horrible headache and your brain functioning differently and the information feed your senses give you being much much richer and your connection yourself working right for the first time in your life, ever, wow, there is a reason I don't think I have aspergers any more, but I am not sure that I do any more and that is a miracle of miracles). Yet it bothers me because I cannot successfully do a simple thing like going to church without it just plain bumming me out and making my experience in this whole religion thing worse. That's what bothers me, that part of my experience is counter than what is supposed to be. and it makes me feel guilty as hell, I got an amazing number of gifts yet I feel like I am not reciprocating.

I refuse to believe I have some unique amazing experience nobody will have, people get amazing gifts all the time and I have seen some nasty stuff cured in my day, like people not being crippled any more.

This one piece just doesn't fix the puzzle and its driving me to frustration. ugh.

tacomancer said:

Yeah, I tried the alternative churches and I found the same people there too. All appearance and all trying to hide their real selves. I don't get it, if you hide who you are, where is the opportunity to grow? That's what I want, real people, real problems, real growth, not some shiny dog and pony show.

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Smaller churches are often better about that than big ones. People actually know each other. Sometimes VERY small, isolated churches get a little... weird... though.

A buddy of mine in another state got frustrated in a similar manner to you. He somehow got up a small group, like four or five households, to meet every Sunday at one person's house for a worship service, bible study and prayer meeting type thing with a casual and largely unstructured setting, and found it very satisfactory for many years. Just a thought.

maybe you should found your own group advertise your style of faith see if any ones interested in joining you for some talk or free style public or silent prayer

Goshin said:

Smaller churches are often better about that than big ones. People actually know each other. Sometimes VERY small, isolated churches get a little... weird... though.

A buddy of mine in another state got frustrated in a similar manner to you. He somehow got up a small group, like four or five households, to meet every Sunday at one person's house for a worship service, bible study and prayer meeting type thing with a casual and largely unstructured setting, and found it very satisfactory for many years. Just a thought.

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Addendum: "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together" does not, IMHO, mean you absolutely have to go to a building with a steeple on it. The 1st Century church mostly met in each other's houses, when they didn't have to hide out in the catacombs or something. It just means you should be part of some kind of fellowship of believers.

Goshin said:

Smaller churches are often better about that than big ones. People actually know each other. Sometimes VERY small, isolated churches get a little... weird... though.

A buddy of mine in another state got frustrated in a similar manner to you. He somehow got up a small group, like four or five households, to meet every Sunday at one person's house for a worship service, bible study and prayer meeting type thing with a casual and largely unstructured setting, and found it very satisfactory for many years. Just a thought.

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Thanks Goshin, that is real food for thought and I have found you always to be an honorable knight among men.

Goshin said:

Addendum: "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together" does not, IMHO, mean you absolutely have to go to a building with a steeple on it. The 1st Century church mostly met in each other's houses, when they didn't have to hide out in the catacombs or something. It just means you should be part of some kind of fellowship of believers.

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One of the greatest challenges in my life is being someone like me in the south. I am so unlike the typical southerner. I don't even like college football :2razz:. I would probably fit in best in Seattle or something where there is no pretense (sadly, most of the outcast groups, like the goths are just as bad about social convention, so I don't do well with them either). The south is all pretense. All my friends are misfits anyway who feel the same as me about religion. They love it and a good number of them are devout, but they don't fit in anywhere and don't do well in structured situations. Maybe there is some opportunity in this. I need to spend time on it actually ...

tacomancer said:

Thanks Goshin, that is real food for thought



One of the greatest challenges in my life is being someone like me in the south. I am so unlike the typical southerner. I don't even like college football :2razz:. I would probably fit in best in Seattle or something where there is no pretense. The south is all pretense. All my friends are misfits anyway who feel the same as me about religion. They love it and a good number of them are devout, but they don't fit in anywhere and don't do well in structured situations. Maybe there is some opportunity in this. I need to spend time on it actually ...

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Hey, now, no bashing on the South. There are plastic people in all regions.

Granted, I feel your pain on the football thing; I'm indifferent to it and sometimes people act like you're an Atheist or something when you say you're not interested in football.

Goshin said:

Hey, now, no bashing on the South. There are plastic people in all regions.

Granted, I feel your pain on the football thing; I'm indifferent to it and sometimes people act like you're an Atheist or something when you say you're not interested in football.

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Not to bash the south specifically and I agree, but the culture that my instincts put me in are not in this region, but I ain't moving cause my kids are here. (plus southern food is freaking amazing. I have had food from all over the world and I like southern simple cooking the best. not paula deen mayonnaise crap, but old ladies who make the best fried chicken ever type of stuff)

LOL, its horrible. People ask you who you support, and you inform them you don't really like football and they can't figure out how to maintain the conversation and blankly stare. So you sit there and probe until you can find something to have a conversation about, which may or may not work. I never feel that uncomfortable and maintain the polite conversation for their benefit, but so many people just can't deal with people not fitting the mold, heh.

tacomancer said:

Not to bash the south specifically and I agree, but the culture that my instincts put me in are not in this region, but I ain't moving cause my kids are here. (plus southern food is freaking amazing. I have had food from all over the world and I like southern simple cooking the best. not paula deen mayonnaise crap, but old ladies who make the best fried chicken ever type of stuff)

LOL, its horrible. People ask you who you support, and you inform them you don't really like football and they can't figure out how to maintain the conversation and blankly stare. So you sit there and probe until you can find something to have a conversation about, which may or may not work. I never feel that uncomfortable and maintain the polite conversation for their benefit, but so many people just can't deal with people not fitting the mold, heh.

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I know right? Or they'll ask about basketball or baseball, and I'm pretty much indifferent to all things "ball". (Well, I might actually watch if the Braves make the Series). I'd rather spend time discussing The Big Questions Of Life, or even listening to someone's weird take on UFO's, than most things "ball".

Well, I hunt a bit, but hunting isn't really something you spend a lot of conversation on, its just something you do.

If it isn't about ball, hunting or work, most men can't have a conversation...

Goshin said:

I know right? Or they'll ask about basketball or baseball, and I'm pretty much indifferent to all things "ball". (Well, I might actually watch if the Braves make the Series). I'd rather spend time discussing The Big Questions Of Life, or even listening to someone's weird take on UFO's, than most things "ball".

Well, I hunt a bit, but hunting isn't really something you spend a lot of conversation on, its just something you do.

If it isn't about ball, hunting or work, most men can't have a conversation...

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You so remind of my friend Andy. I bet you two would be best buds, even though he is an Alabama fan. The man is a philosopher at heart even though he looks like a bar bouncer and can kick about anybody's butt. Great guy and he does all sorts of things for me without me even asking. (like last week while I was out of town tending to my sick dad, he decided to fix my truck, because it needed doing). He and I don't exactly see things eye to eye, he is deeply conservative, but he is a really good caring person and that's all I really care about in RL people.

I can't give you personal advice, as church is not something that I am inclined toward, but I can tell you how my father would have arrived at a decision, which probably isn't common, but it worked for him. My father was a man of great faith as far as his religious life went. He did not look for socialization in church, but he went wherever things "felt right". He prayed about it, and he waited for guidance in the intuitive sense. He didn't actively seek a change, and when he found a church that he liked, he was highly devoted until a point came at which he just knew it was time to move on. That happened three times in his life. The last time was about 10 years ago. He had become increasingly dissatisfied with the direction his church was going in, because he found it to be superficial and leaning toward the glam side, which was everything my father was not. He was out in his garage one Saturday, working on some building project or another, and a young man just happened by in the neighborhood and came to introduce himself. He was new in the area, and was going to pastor a very small church just a few blocks from my dad's place. They talked for awhile, and my dad decided he liked this young man, for whatever reason, and started going to his little church, where my dad essentially became what I consider the backbone of it. My dad was one to go where he felt he was directed from within, rather than actively seeking outward.

tacomancer said:

I want to get people's honest take on this as I struggle with it and am curious about other points of view.

I believe in God and Jesus, but I have trouble going to church for a few reasons.

1. The people, they are insufferable. I have been in 20 or so churches looking for a good fit and without a doubt, I find the same people in slightly different clothes. I am a person who is highly sensitive to people and my bull**** antenna is very good and I instinctively understand people very deeply very quickly (my friends think its a bit creepy when I tell them what they are thinking, but I tend to know what the people around me are thinking almost all the time and with a high accuracy). When I go to church, I find nothing but lies and bull****. The people put on a mask and never reveal who they are but instead what the expectations of the situation need them to be. There are exceptions of course, but its all so formulaic, certain types of support and love are expected and people put their game face on and go through the motions. The truth is, people are flawed and they should let themselves show that they are flawed or else there is nothing for people to connect to each other with. (I have a problem with this everywhere and its why I have been lonely most of my life, because I never had tolerance for social convention (instead, I go for truth) and ignoring that scares people and puts them way out of their comfort zone)
2. As a result, I am distracted and have trouble connecting to the moment and finding the spiritual feeling of church. Truth be told, I tend to do better in the shower in the morning when I have my me time and can pray and ask questions and get answers and wisdom. In the quiet times is when I do well, not in groups which distract me and throw off my center.
3. Whenever I pray for help to do this, I get this "its not my path and don't worry about it" feeling, but it still bothers me as as far as I can tell, its what I am supposed to be doing. I can tell when I ask over and over, I get an annoyed and shut up feeling back, so I am trying to find a way to get past it (in other words, get over myself and my doubts and do what is right for my path)

What is your take? I may or may not listen, but my experience thus far is that Churches take me away from God rather than closer because of the feelings of frustration I get from them. I would be happiest just being among friends with a nice cup of coffee and talking sincerely and spontaneously than some formulaic approach to things which may or may not happen to match up with my mood at the moment. Anyone else have experiences like this?

I am the creative, social, and spontaneous type that doesn't do well in structured environments (yet at the same time, I am well rounded, my right side tends to come up with my goals while my left side tends to get engaged in how to achieve those goals, I am also a good engineer, but I am dominant right side, slightly). I respond best to fluid and ever changing situations and I think that is my main problem in this realm.

Click to expand...

I'm a born-again Christian. Before that I'd identify myself as a Christian - but was not really one. I only thought I was. It was only when I'd read and tried to understand the Bible have I discovered I never was a true Christian. I did my usual nightly prayers, attended mass when I can.....but I was far from God. I drifted off and fell victim to materialism, liberal ideas and became a relativist.

I wanted to join a non-denominational church (Living Truth), since it was their pastor, Evangelist Charles Price (whom I saw on his weekly tv program) who was instrumental in me reading the Bible. They advised me to find a church close to me since I have to worship with a group.

My purpose for embracing Christianity is to feel WHOLE (something was missing deep inside)...to have salvation and eternal life with God. I'm wary of false teachings. I want to be as true to the Bible as I possibly can. I've become a Baptist.

It's all about our reason for wanting to become a member of a church. What is your reason?

tosca1 said:

I'm a born-again Christian. Before that I'd identify myself as a Christian - but was not really one. I only thought I was. It was only when I'd read and tried to understand the Bible have I discovered I never was a true Christian. I did my usual nightly prayers, attended mass when I can.....but I was far from God. I drifted off and fell victim to materialism, liberal ideas and became a relativist.

I wanted to join a non-denominational church (Living Truth), since it was their pastor, Evangelist Charles Price (whom I saw on his weekly tv program) who was instrumental in me reading the Bible. They advised me to find a church close to me since I have to worship with a group.

My purpose for embracing Christianity is to feel WHOLE (something was missing deep inside)...to have salvation and eternal life with God. I'm wary of false teachings. I want to be as true to the Bible as I possibly can. I've become a Baptist.

It's all about our reason for wanting to become a member of a church. What is your reason?

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Well first of all, wanting to be a part of church and being a christian really have little to do with each other. Church is an institution and not necessarily the same thing as a fellowship, but a packaged form of attempt at that. If you are confusing the two, this is an issue of concern.

So I will answer two questions instead of one

1. Why do I want to be a member of the church? Because I feel like I am supposed to be. I have been given amazing gifts and help when I need it. Thus, I have built up a deep sense of faith and loyalty over the years. I simply trust God above all others after numerous examples of his faith in me (and everyone else failing, sometimes spectacularly, especially me). As such, I want to give back as I was given, going to church is a way to do that. It wouldn't be for me.

2. Why am I a Christian? Because there have been times when I am down and God is what was needed to get back up. Times when my strength gave out and God made a way. I don't necessarily need God to feel whole, I feel quite complete on my own and I feel no shame in that. I am pretty much complete in me. However, the only reason that is true is because God made me that way, I used to be a very different person that was nothing but the result of trauma and abuse. What I am today is incredible compared to that, but I had to go through some pretty intense suffering to shed the old sadness and hate and the truth is God caused that to happen to force me to grow and be complete because my personality always responds to trauma by overcoming it after a relatively short period of being down. Now a days, its hard to even get me in a bad mood or for me to feel really stressed anymore. I have faith because over and over, God guides me to good results and gives me wisdom to seek the right things for the right reasons and it works without fail, even when I don't understand it at the time. My need for God is that I am like a fine tuned engine with no pilot, if left to my own devices I will drive at full speed right into a ditch and then keep going because I have an incredible amount of emotional and physical strength, but I am also highly emotionally driven (I have good logical skills, but my emotional side is dominant and my logical side tends to be engage in figuring out how to get what I want emotionally, which its good at, but by and large I tend to respond to "ooo shiny, I want that!"). I have an IQ of nearly 150, I am good looking, I have a decent body that is also strong and is naturally athletic. But I also have this amazing ability, because of my strength and the resulting need to be active all the time, whether physically, emotionally, or intellectually to be doing something. When I am left to my own devices, I cause all sorts of trouble, when I am directed, good things happen. So I pray a lot because it works and in the end of the day, I usually have affected someone's life very positively and that is how I am used.
If left to my own devices and guidance, I tend to end up in bars or all sorts of hedonism because its a flaw and one that God has not seen fit to correct, but as was revealed in Paul, God needs you to be imperfect so he has a way to interact with you. But my ooo shiny side has its definite downsides. But it also means I am quite experienced in a lot of things and can meet someone at any level from the cream of the crop to the guy in the gutter, I have a way of getting along with everyone and being there when its time for that deep interpersonal conversation that always comes up with me and I get a chance to tell my story.

Are you looking for a church where you can be an active participant in the doing of good things? or perhaps a passive supporter of the leadership that does the good things? Do you want to share in the improvement of the group, be the teacher, or the taught?
Are you willing to do whatever is asked, even if it is a dirty job? Is humility a desired feature of your belief system?

UtahBill said:

Are you looking for a church where you can be an active participant in the doing of good things? or perhaps a passive supporter of the leadership that does the good things? Do you want to share in the improvement of the group, be the teacher, or the taught?
Are you willing to do whatever is asked, even if it is a dirty job? Is humility a desired feature of your belief system?

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Honestly, my ideal church is one that gets out of the building and serves. Feeds the poor, visits the sick, goes to the prison, etc. Full of nice people who are sincere, humble, and honest. Obviously someone has to vacuum and clean up for sunday and pay the bills so the power doesn't get shut off and preach the sermons, but for me the real meat is in the social work. That is where God's love is put on the best display and wins the most people over. Plus its what we are supposed to do.

I really don't care about doctrines of this verses that church or even the politics of religion as politics poisons religion and its beautiful simplicity. And the purity of love. I have yet to find a church that does this simple thing. Instead its all about bickering over who gets the choice sunday school post. Even the ones that try really hard, fall pray to the politics and insincerity that I just cannot stand. Love is its own force and meaning and the whole point behind this anyway.

I prefer not to intellectualize my religion or to politicize it and get all bent out of shape about things like abortion. I would rather go and do and put my religion in the environment that surrounds me right now. I am never confronted by things like abortion in every day life, but I know plenty of people addicted to meth who I would help if they would let me. Or perhaps help battered ladies get away from asshole husbands. Stuff like that.

I hope that makes sense. I am not sure how to phrase it any other way.

Maybe I just need to go back to habitat for humanity like I used to do and that will be my church or something. I dunno.

tacomancer said:

Honestly, my ideal church is one that gets out of the building and serves. Feeds the poor, visits the sick, goes to the prison, etc. Full of nice people who are sincere, humble, and honest. Obviously someone has to vacuum and clean up for sunday and pay the bills so the power doesn't get shut off and preach the sermons, but for me the real meat is in the social work. That is where God's love is put on the best display and wins the most people over. Plus its what we are supposed to do.

I really don't care about doctrines of this verses that church or even the politics of religion as politics poisons religion and its beautiful simplicity. And the purity of love. I have yet to find a church that does this simple thing. Instead its all about bickering over who gets the choice sunday school post. Even the ones that try really hard, fall pray to the politics and insincerity that I just cannot stand.

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Have you tried the quakers?

Red_Dave said:

Have you tried the quakers?

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Good question. I have to see if quakers are around here, those guys tend to be da bomb though. They are pretty much gold standard as far as I am concerned, sincere, humble, simple, etc. At least thats the reputation, I don't have any personal experience, so I may be in for a rude awakening, who knows.

tacomancer said:

Honestly, my ideal church is one that gets out of the building and serves. Feeds the poor, visits the sick, goes to the prison, etc. Full of nice people who are sincere, humble, and honest. Obviously someone has to vacuum and clean up for sunday and pay the bills so the power doesn't get shut off and preach the sermons, but for me the real meat is in the social work. That is where God's love is put on the best display and wins the most people over. Plus its what we are supposed to do.

I really don't care about doctrines of this verses that church or even the politics of religion as politics poisons religion and its beautiful simplicity. And the purity of love. I have yet to find a church that does this simple thing. Instead its all about bickering over who gets the choice sunday school post. Even the ones that try really hard, fall pray to the politics and insincerity that I just cannot stand. Love is its own force and meaning and the whole point behind this anyway.

I prefer not to intellectualize my religion or to politicize it and get all bent out of shape about things like abortion. I would rather go and do and put my religion in the environment that surrounds me right now. I am never confronted by things like abortion in every day life, but I know plenty of people addicted to meth who I would help if they would let me. Or perhaps help battered ladies get away from asshole husbands. Stuff like that.

I hope that makes sense. I am not sure how to phrase it any other way.

Maybe I just need to go back to habitat for humanity like I used to do and that will be my church or something. I dunno.

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Matthew chap. 25...in as much as you have done these things for the least of these, you have done it unto me....not quoted exactly, but you can find it in chap. 25 IIRC.

tacomancer said:

I want to get people's honest take on this as I struggle with it and am curious about other points of view.

I believe in God and Jesus, but I have trouble going to church for a few reasons.

1. The people, they are insufferable. I have been in 20 or so churches looking for a good fit and without a doubt, I find the same people in slightly different clothes. I am a person who is highly sensitive to people and my bull**** antenna is very good and I instinctively understand people very deeply very quickly (my friends think its a bit creepy when I tell them what they are thinking, but I tend to know what the people around me are thinking almost all the time and with a high accuracy). When I go to church, I find nothing but lies and bull****. The people put on a mask and never reveal who they are but instead what the expectations of the situation need them to be. There are exceptions of course, but its all so formulaic, certain types of support and love are expected and people put their game face on and go through the motions. The truth is, people are flawed and they should let themselves show that they are flawed or else there is nothing for people to connect to each other with. (I have a problem with this everywhere and its why I have been lonely most of my life, because I never had tolerance for social convention (instead, I go for truth) and ignoring that scares people and puts them way out of their comfort zone)
2. As a result, I am distracted and have trouble connecting to the moment and finding the spiritual feeling of church. Truth be told, I tend to do better in the shower in the morning when I have my me time and can pray and ask questions and get answers and wisdom. In the quiet times is when I do well, not in groups which distract me and throw off my center.
3. Whenever I pray for help to do this, I get this "its not my path and don't worry about it" feeling, but it still bothers me as as far as I can tell, its what I am supposed to be doing. I can tell when I ask over and over, I get an annoyed and shut up feeling back, so I am trying to find a way to get past it (in other words, get over myself and my doubts and do what is right for my path)

What is your take? I may or may not listen, but my experience thus far is that Churches take me away from God rather than closer because of the feelings of frustration I get from them. I would be happiest just being among friends with a nice cup of coffee and talking sincerely and spontaneously than some formulaic approach to things which may or may not happen to match up with my mood at the moment. Anyone else have experiences like this?

I am the creative, social, and spontaneous type that doesn't do well in structured environments (yet at the same time, I am well rounded, my right side tends to come up with my goals while my left side tends to get engaged in how to achieve those goals, I am also a good engineer, but I am dominant right side, slightly). I respond best to fluid and ever changing situations and I think that is my main problem in this realm.

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The reason most Christians seem to struggle with this is because the format is completely wrong and, actually, pagan in origin. The Church wasn't supposed to be a pulpit to pew preaching with a professional clergy to administer and take care of everything. The Church was supposed to be a community of believers that met in peoples homes. There was no professional leaders or pastors. Everybody participated in every part of their meetings and, what we call "offices" or "titles" today, were gifts to the first century Church. They loved each other, cared for each other and ministered to each other. According to scripture, Jesus is the "Head of His body" (the Church). If there are professional clergy, they claim to be the head of church. A body can have only one head. Our head IS Jesus Christ. When the first century Church met, Jesus actually manifested Himself in their meetings through His body.

tacomancer said:

Honestly, my ideal church is one that gets out of the building and serves. Feeds the poor, visits the sick, goes to the prison, etc. Full of nice people who are sincere, humble, and honest. Obviously someone has to vacuum and clean up for sunday and pay the bills so the power doesn't get shut off and preach the sermons, but for me the real meat is in the social work. That is where God's love is put on the best display and wins the most people over. Plus its what we are supposed to do.

I really don't care about doctrines of this verses that church or even the politics of religion as politics poisons religion and its beautiful simplicity. And the purity of love. I have yet to find a church that does this simple thing. Instead its all about bickering over who gets the choice sunday school post. Even the ones that try really hard, fall pray to the politics and insincerity that I just cannot stand. Love is its own force and meaning and the whole point behind this anyway.

I prefer not to intellectualize my religion or to politicize it and get all bent out of shape about things like abortion. I would rather go and do and put my religion in the environment that surrounds me right now. I am never confronted by things like abortion in every day life, but I know plenty of people addicted to meth who I would help if they would let me. Or perhaps help battered ladies get away from asshole husbands. Stuff like that.

I hope that makes sense. I am not sure how to phrase it any other way.

Maybe I just need to go back to habitat for humanity like I used to do and that will be my church or something. I dunno.

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There will always be some bickering....even the early church by the Apostles had that. I try to do less "potluck" parties to avoid any possible intrigues. Besides, we could do more with the time if we do less socials with one another...otherwise, it becomes more like a "clique."

But yes, I know what you're saying about actually going out to do some good works! A church has to go out to outreach to others - thus we spread the Word too by being examples of what Christianity is all about. Missionaries and volunteers who really go out of their way - even to dangerous and miserable places - are truly awesome and God-inspired. If only I could be as courageous as them....

You should try The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. No paid clergy, all volunteer, lots of organized service projects.

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tacomancer said:

I want to get people's honest take on this as I struggle with it and am curious about other points of view.

I believe in God and Jesus, but I have trouble going to church for a few reasons.

1. The people, they are insufferable. I have been in 20 or so churches looking for a good fit and without a doubt, I find the same people in slightly different clothes. I am a person who is highly sensitive to people and my bull**** antenna is very good and I instinctively understand people very deeply very quickly (my friends think its a bit creepy when I tell them what they are thinking, but I tend to know what the people around me are thinking almost all the time and with a high accuracy). When I go to church, I find nothing but lies and bull****. The people put on a mask and never reveal who they are but instead what the expectations of the situation need them to be. There are exceptions of course, but its all so formulaic, certain types of support and love are expected and people put their game face on and go through the motions. The truth is, people are flawed and they should let themselves show that they are flawed or else there is nothing for people to connect to each other with. (I have a problem with this everywhere and its why I have been lonely most of my life, because I never had tolerance for social convention (instead, I go for truth) and ignoring that scares people and puts them way out of their comfort zone)
2. As a result, I am distracted and have trouble connecting to the moment and finding the spiritual feeling of church. Truth be told, I tend to do better in the shower in the morning when I have my me time and can pray and ask questions and get answers and wisdom. In the quiet times is when I do well, not in groups which distract me and throw off my center.
3. Whenever I pray for help to do this, I get this "its not my path and don't worry about it" feeling, but it still bothers me as as far as I can tell, its what I am supposed to be doing. I can tell when I ask over and over, I get an annoyed and shut up feeling back, so I am trying to find a way to get past it (in other words, get over myself and my doubts and do what is right for my path)

What is your take? I may or may not listen, but my experience thus far is that Churches take me away from God rather than closer because of the feelings of frustration I get from them. I would be happiest just being among friends with a nice cup of coffee and talking sincerely and spontaneously than some formulaic approach to things which may or may not happen to match up with my mood at the moment. Anyone else have experiences like this?

I am the creative, social, and spontaneous type that doesn't do well in structured environments (yet at the same time, I am well rounded, my right side tends to come up with my goals while my left side tends to get engaged in how to achieve those goals, I am also a good engineer, but I am dominant right side, slightly). I respond best to fluid and ever changing situations and I think that is my main problem in this realm.

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Since you asked for opinions here's mine:

1. First and foremost, if it's not Catholic then it's not the right Church.

It is the only Christian Theology that makes any logical sense and takes into consideration the whole picture based on the bible, history, language and culture. If Christianity is correct then Catholicism is the only way that works.

2. Not every "Catholic" Church is the right Church.

3. Welcome to the human race. People suck, you just have to find the ones who suck a little bit less.

I never liked all of the fake bull**** in Church either, sometimes you sit there and wonder why half of the people even show up and then you have to try to not go off on the other half who act like they're made out of angel wings and are God's gift to you.

4. Sounds like you care more about the social aspects of Church then the actual theology. Is that true?

Monserrat said:

Since you asked for opinions here's mine:

1. First and foremost, if it's not Catholic then it's not the right Church.

It is the only Christian Theology that makes any logical sense and takes into consideration the whole picture based on the bible, history, language and culture. If Christianity is correct then Catholicism is the only way that works.

2. Not every "Catholic" Church is the right Church.

3. Welcome to the human race. People suck, you just have to find the ones who suck a little bit less.

I never liked all of the fake bull**** in Church either, sometimes you sit there and wonder why half of the people even show up and then you have to try to not go off on the other half who act like they're made out of angel wings and are God's gift to you.

4. Sounds like you care more about the social aspects of Church then the actual theology. Is that true?

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for #4, its more like I am tired of the politics getting in the way of the point of church, but I am not sure in what context you ask. so I guess you could say yes, because I want to help feed the poor, visit the sick, and such. Far more so than listen to a sermon. So I guess you could say I am interested in social aspects.

tacomancer said:

for #4, its more like I am tired of the politics getting in the way of the point of church, but I am not sure in what context you ask. so I guess you could say yes, because I want to help feed the poor, visit the sick, and such. Far more so than listen to a sermon. So I guess you could say I am interested in social aspects.

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When I was trying to find the right Church it took me a decade to come back full circle to the one I started out with. I have a very analytical and methodical mind, I wasn't looking for a Church based on the right community because honestly you could go to the same denomination in a different state, hell even just a different part of town and find completely different people. I wanted the one that was the closest to the truth and years of studying made it crystal clear that the only Christian Church that made any logical sense was the Catholic Church.

It's more structured then a lot of other Christian Churches so if you care more about the structure or lack thereof and the people then you do about the overall theology of the Church then I would try to find a denomination that fits the bill and then try to find the right Church within the denomination where the people making it up have similar needs from the community to those of your own.