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Christians: The Use of Contraception is a Sin[W:40]

phattonez said:
Funny how atheists seem to be the ones most riled up at even the discussion of this issue.
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you made the issue by claiming moral authority for all christians. You made a blanket pronouncement for all christians. I know for sure that you are not the religious leader for about 1.2 billion of them.
although in this case their leader agrees with you.
as for the remaining 100s of millions, you have no leg to stand on to make such pronouncements.
 
RogueWarrior said:
you made the issue by claiming moral authority for all christians. You made a blanket pronouncement for all christians. I know for sure that you are not the religious leader for about 1.2 billion of them.
although in this case their leader agrees with you.
as for the remaining 100s of millions, you have no leg to stand on to make such pronouncements.
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They're free to disagree with me, though I think that they're wrong. If they think that I'm wrong then they can respond and rebut. Isn't that the point of a debate forum?
 
And let's let this be the final word on usury in this thread. If you want to discuss it further then start another thread:

Due to advances in transportation, communications and generally expanding economies, the nature of money itself has changed in the course of time. A loan that was usurious at one point in history, due to the unfruitfulness of money, is not usurious later, when the development of competitive markets has changed the nature of money itself. But this is not a change of the Church's teaching on usury. Today nearly all commercial transactions, including monetary loans at interest, do not qualify as usury. This constitutes a change only in the nature of the financial transaction itself, not in the teaching of the Church on usury. "Still she maintains dogmatically that there is such a sin as usury, and what it is, as defined in the Fifth Council of Lateran "(ibid., 263).
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Library : The Red Herring of Usury - Catholic Culture
 
phattonez said:
Like I said, economic matters are not faith or morals.

Furthermore, usury is not the charging of interest on a loan. It's more complex than that.
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Excommunication is a punished reserved for matters of faith and morals. Usury is an economic matter that was once punished by excommunication. Thus, economic matters can also be matters of faith and morals, so much so they can result in excommunication.

I can find a far more biblical passages and papal doctrine regarding moral rules concerning wealth and economics than for contraception techniques that didn't exist until the 20th century.
 
rathi said:
Excommunication is a punished reserved for matters of faith and morals. Usury is an economic matter that was once punished by excommunication. Thus, economic matters can also be matters of faith and morals, so much so they can result in excommunication.

I can find a far more biblical passages and papal doctrine regarding moral rules concerning wealth and economics than for contraception techniques that didn't exist until the 20th century.
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Like I said, start your own thread then.
 
phattonez said:
Like I said, start your own thread then.
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The entire premise of this thread is based on the concept of papal authority with regards to contraception. I am demonstrating that if we accept papal authority as valid, one must also accept the Vatican's judgement on other issues as well. I picked economic issues specifically because I knew you likely don't agree with papal authority on such matters, thereby showing your lack of belief in your own argument.

In short, I argue that Catholics can use contraception using the same justification you condone unfettered commerce with.
 
rathi said:
The entire premise of this thread is based on the concept of papal authority with regards to contraception.
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It's not. The OP specifically only used arguments from the Bible and Protestant reformers.

I am demonstrating that if we accept papal authority as valid, one must also accept the Vatican's judgement on other issues as well. I picked economic issues specifically because I knew you likely don't agree with papal authority on such matters, thereby showing your lack of belief in your own argument.

In short, I argue that Catholics can use contraception using the same justification you condone unfettered commerce with.
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I did not use papal authority to defend the idea of contraception as sinful. Now later, debating with a Catholic I brought it up, but I wasn't going to put it in the OP because not many in this forum are Catholic and so they would find the argument unconvincing.

So, if you think that referring to papal authority is hypocritical on my part, then please, go ahead and start a thread on papal authority and economic matters, and I'll gladly engage you there. I'm not going to do it here because I want to stick to the OP. So please, enough with the distractions.
 
phattonez said:
I'm not damning anyone. I'm merely pointing out that the act is sinful. It is important that we know what is sinful and what is not so that we can avoid sinning.
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phattonez said:
It's not as bad, but it is still a mortal sin. Abortion gets you excommunicated, but both will send you to Hell.
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Sounds like damnation to me. "Both will send you to Hell." I strongly disagree. I am a sinner in many ways, and I ask for forgiveness every day. Far as I understand, as long as I keep faith and stay true to the commandments, I have a chance for forgiveness.

That means I don't have to feel the torment of guilt every day, for the things that make me an imperfect human.
 
Manny said:
Sounds like damnation to me. "Both will send you to Hell." I strongly disagree. I am a sinner in many ways, and I ask for forgiveness every day. Far as I understand, as long as I keep faith and stay true to the commandments, I have a chance for forgiveness.
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In the context I was speaking to a Catholic, and it is clear from the Magisterium of the Catholic Church that using contraception is a mortal sin. If you die with a mortal sin on your conscious you go to Hell. Others might be able to claim invincible ignorance, but that is up to our Lord to decide.

That means I don't have to feel the torment of guilt every day, for the things that make me an imperfect human.
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Luke 18: 9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Always ask for mercy and forgiveness; we are all sinners.
 
phattonez said:
that is up to our Lord to decide.
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Yes, I agree with that. Whether the sinner goes to hell or not, we will not know. And besides, we too are the sinners.


phattonez said:
Luke 18: 9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Always ask for mercy and forgiveness; we are all sinners.
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Very true. I think your intentions are good, you want to point out which behaviors are listed as sins in the bible. But be wary of portraying yourself as pure and above others, or you fall into the very trap you've mentioned. Be wary of judging. That parable, and this thread, might be a secret message.
 
Manny said:
Yes, I agree with that. Whether the sinner goes to hell or not, we will not know. And besides, we too are the sinners.



Very true. I think your intentions are good, you want to point out which behaviors are listed as sins in the bible. But be wary of portraying yourself as pure and above others, or you fall into the very trap you've mentioned. Be wary of judging. That parable, and this thread, might be a secret message.
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Sure, I won't deny that I'm a sinner (though I'd rather not come forth and name my sins on a public forum! ;), but I'd hope that the thread gets many to think about this subject that people just take as a given to be just fine.
 
phattonez said:
I'd hope that the thread gets many to think about this subject that people just take as a given to be just fine.
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Now there's a good motive. I can appreciate that :thumbs:
 
phattonez said:
Before getting into the scriptural and moral case against contraception, I'd just like to point out that all Christian denominations were in full agreement about this until the 20th century. All.

Now, the moral case is easy to summarize:



Now, what about the scriptural case? Obviously there is the case of Onan:



And what of the early Church and Protestant reformers? Keep in mind when reading these quotes that birth control has been around for millenia, it is not a new creation.







Birth Control | Catholic Answers

Obviously it wouldn't be prudent to be having babies all the time, so what is the alternative?



Natural Family Planning

Keep this in mind. I know it's not easy to accept, but the truth is clear.
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Wow. You really struck a nerve with a lot of posters on this one. I read through a lot of the posts, didn't see too much of a discussion going on so I thought I would just respond to this post. I realize the Catholic position on this but it's one I haven't delved into too much since it's not really applicable in my life. I can understand the non-catholic viewpoint against your stated position and the position taken by the Catholic Church since the bible is not clear cut on this one from what I've seen. I think the greatest support for the opinion against contraceptive use is based on tradition which most Christians are scared to take into consideration.

Re-posting your genesis passage: "Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.’ But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also" (Gen. 38:8–10).

Based on that alone I don't think it's clear whether the offense to god was over the spilled semen or over the fact that Onan went against custom and denied his brother offspring.
 
Monserrat said:
Wow. You really struck a nerve with a lot of posters on this one. I read through a lot of the posts, didn't see too much of a discussion going on so I thought I would just respond to this post. I realize the Catholic position on this but it's one I haven't delved into too much since it's not really applicable in my life. I can understand the non-catholic viewpoint against your stated position and the position taken by the Catholic Church since the bible is not clear cut on this one from what I've seen. I think the greatest support for the opinion against contraceptive use is based on tradition which most Christians are scared to take into consideration.

Re-posting your genesis passage: "Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.’ But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also" (Gen. 38:8–10).

Based on that alone I don't think it's clear whether the offense to god was over the spilled semen or over the fact that Onan went against custom and denied his brother offspring.
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There is more to it than that. The appropriate punishment (as stated in Deuteronomy) for failing to have a child with your brother's wife is public humiliation, a far cry from death. The only other thing that could have displeased God is the intentional spilling of seed, which God found to be worthy of death.

Thanks for the interest in the thread! :)
 
phattonez said:
Before getting into the scriptural and moral case against contraception, I'd just like to point out that all Christian denominations were in full agreement about this until the 20th century. All.

Now, the moral case is easy to summarize:



Now, what about the scriptural case? Obviously there is the case of Onan:



And what of the early Church and Protestant reformers? Keep in mind when reading these quotes that birth control has been around for millenia, it is not a new creation.







Birth Control | Catholic Answers

Obviously it wouldn't be prudent to be having babies all the time, so what is the alternative?



Natural Family Planning

Keep this in mind. I know it's not easy to accept, but the truth is clear.
Click to expand...


I find the "approved method" (rhythm method) as being approved, in contradiction to the rest of the teaching.

Onan's sin was one of taking up a commitment then refusing to honor it and fulfill various family and religious obligations thereby. Not the same thing as a couple using contraception to keep their progeny to a manageable horde.
 
Goshin said:
I find the "approved method" (rhythm method) as being approved, in contradiction to the rest of the teaching.
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It's not. The problem is the deliberate act of rendering an otherwise potentially fruitful act unfruitful. With natural family planning, you are not doing anything to render the act unfruitful.

Onan's sin was one of taking up a commitment then refusing to honor it and fulfill various family and religious obligations thereby. Not the same thing as a couple using contraception to keep their progeny to a manageable horde.
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That was only one of his sins, which, as I mentioned in the OP, is punishable by public humiliation. However, God punished him with death. The problem was something more than not fulfilling his familial obligations.
 
The "natural law" isn't sufficiently specific enough to base much doctrine on. It could literally be applied to mostly anything without much justification. Maybe god was angry about the "spilling of the seed". A good blow job can avoid this.

Moreover ,if sex for only procreation were part of a "natural law" then procreation would be the result every time you made the beast with two backs. It would be a much stronger argument against contraception if this were so. As it stands now, its based on a flimsy "natural law" argument.

phattonez said:
Violates the natural law; it's not very different from the sin of Onan either.
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Morton said:
The "natural law" isn't sufficiently specific enough to base much doctrine on. It could literally be applied to mostly anything without much justification. Maybe god was angry about the "spilling of the seed". A good blow job can avoid this.
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Oral sex still spills seed in that it cannot be used for procreation.
 
phattonez said:
Truth never changes.
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They can't even decide what 'truth' they want to follow and what 'truth' isn't literal 'truth' - I mean seriously. Some consensus is in order.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
They can't even decide what 'truth' they want to follow and what 'truth' isn't literal 'truth' - I mean seriously. Some consensus is in order.
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Care to elaborate?
 
Not so in the catholic church. If not completely clear as to its explanations, its very clear in its teaching what "truth" is.


Aunt Spiker said:
They can't even decide what 'truth' they want to follow and what 'truth' isn't literal 'truth' - I mean seriously. Some consensus is in order.
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phattonez said:
Care to elaborate?
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There are a variety of Christian denominations - with a variety of interpretations . . . and there are several religions that use the same religious texts as a backbone, but interpret and apply things differently.

Thus - the various Abrahamic faiths are a stew of interpretations and applications.

Example: transubstantiation and the Eucharist. Or aniconism - iconoclasm and iconolaters.

It's all very complicated and it all comes down to how people interpret and apply The Bible.
 
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