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Salvation by Faith Alone! Not.

phattonez

phattonez

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James 2: 14-26

What good is it, my brothers and sisters,[e] if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you?15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder.20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.
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Instead, this seems like a good summation of what it takes to be saved.

A.In three words, "Believe, repent, and obey." We must:


  • believe and trust in Christ (John 3:16);
  • repent and be baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost for the remission of sins (Matthew 28:19, John 3:3-5, Acts 2:38);
  • obey the will of the Father and keep the commandments (Matthew 7:21, Matthew 19:16-19);
  • eat the Body of Christ (John 6:51-69) -- but not unworthily, and only after discerning the Lord's Body lest we eat damnation onto ourselves (I Corinthians 11:23-30);
  • judge ourselves (1 Corinthians 11:28-31) and, when we fall, confess our sins to those to whom Christ has given the authority to forgive sins in His Name, and to obey that authority when it comes to what is bound and loosed (Matthew 9:5-8, Matthew 18:18, John 20:21-23, 2 Corinthians 5:18);
  • love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love our neighbors as ourselves (Mark 12:30-31).
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Grace, Faith, and Works
 
Scott Hahn sums up the Catholic position quite nicely.

Right. We emphatically in the Catholic tradition, following James and Paul, denounce any works-righteousness, any notion whatsoever that we are justified by works. We are justified by faith, and as James says, we are justified by faith and works, as Galatians tells us, we are justified by faith working in love. Neither circumcision counts for anything, neither uncircumcision, but faith working in love. So the perspective of the Catholic Church is not that of a Roman courtroom, as J.I. Packer insists it should be, and also John Murray and other Protestant theologians. It's that of a Hebrew covenant family in which the judge is a father, and in decreeing judgment and in decreeing righteousness He's doing what He's decreeing by imparting to us His own life. Not that we cease to be creatures; we'll always be creatures ever dependent upon the Creator and ever distinct form the creator, but the Creator who loves is the Father who fathers us to be His children, and that, despite whatever we may have seen or heard from individual Catholics, that is the ancient teaching of the Church and that is age-old teaching of the Church and I believe that it is perfectly consistent with Paul and James insofar as we're not saying works-righteousness, we're not saying any kind of legalistic scheme. We're justified by faith working in love, which is nothing other than the very real grace of Christ operating in us, enabling us as children to grow up. Are we continually justified? Do children have to keep going over hurtles and immaturities? Of course. We're continually justified because our sonship is ever growing as a divine seed within us as children of God.
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The Debate on Justification

This page of debate on justification between Hahn and Robert Knudson is fascinating.
 
Martin Luther tried to get James kicked out of the NT. I haven't trusted protestants since. You have to watch them closely.
 
phattonez said:
Then you don't believe in sola fide.
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I don't know what that means.

James 2:17: " So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."
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Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
 
Remember, the idea is justification by works and faith, through a free gift of Christ, His grace. Nothing you said contradicted that. Of course we need faith, but faith alone is not enough. Remember the words of Jesus:

Mathew 19:17 "If you wish to enter into life, keep the Commandments."

So I don't deny that faith is necessary. What I deny is that faith alone is enough.

NB: Sola fide is Latin for faith alone.
 
phattonez said:
Remember, the idea is justification by works and faith, through a free gift of Christ, His grace. Nothing you said contradicted that. Of course we need faith, but faith alone is not enough. Remember the words of Jesus:

Mathew 19:17 "If you wish to enter into life, keep the Commandments."

So I don't deny that faith is necessary. What I deny is that faith alone is enough.

NB: Sola fide is Latin for faith alone.
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If you believe that salvation is in some way earned by what we do, then you don't believe in grace.
 
X Factor said:
If you believe that salvations is in anyway earned (by doing good works) then you don't believe in grace.
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I never said that it was earned. Never could we earn it. Works alone obviously does not merit Heaven.

An interesting question from Scott Hahn: "And finally, how is that Paul never says we're justified by faith alone, James does say we aren't justified by faith alone, but by faith and works, and so why have we formulated a doctrine in the Protestant tradition that contradicts James and says what Paul never said? Who is taking the Bible literally here?"
 
phattonez said:
I never said that it was earned. Never could we earn it. Works alone obviously does not merit Heaven.

An interesting question from Scott Hahn: "And finally, how is that Paul never says we're justified by faith alone, James does say we aren't justified by faith alone, but by faith and works, and so why have we formulated a doctrine in the Protestant tradition that contradicts James and says what Paul never said? Who is taking the Bible literally here?"
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What you're saying is that faith in Jesus and the resulting grace, is not quite adequate. Now, God does want us to do good things, but not as a way to feel we "deserve" a reward for it.
 
phattonez said:
Then you don't believe in sola fide.

James 2:17: " So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."
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Proclaimed faith without fruit of the Spirit is false.


Mathew 19:17 "If you wish to enter into life, keep the Commandments."
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Observing moral law helps to keep faith strong.
 
ecofarm said:
Proclaimed faith without fruit of the Spirit is false.




Observing moral law helps to keep faith strong.
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Can you lose salvation?
 
X Factor said:
What you're saying is that faith in Jesus and the resulting grace, is not quite adequate. Now, God does want us to do good things, but not as a way to feel we "deserve" a reward for it.
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What I'm saying is that we have no reason to presume that we will be saved merely because we believe in Jesus.
 
St. Paul sure seemed to think that he could lose it:

1 Corinthians 9:27: "But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway."
 
phattonez said:
What I'm saying is that we have no reason to presume that we will be saved merely because we believe in Jesus.
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Ok, that's what I said. Faith alone is not enough and the gift of grace is actually conditional. I should say that, to me, there's no "merely" about it, like it's a minor thing. To me, faith is Christ is pretty much everything.
 
Morton said:
Martin Luther tried to get James kicked out of the NT. I haven't trusted protestants since. You have to watch them closely.
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He tried to get the book of rev. thrown out too and a few others and he successfully threw out the deuterocanon.

:blink:
 
X Factor said:
To me, faith is Christ is pretty much everything.
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Work without faith is nothing. Faith produces work. Work does not qualify anyone for anything.
 
ecofarm said:
Work without faith is nothing. Faith produces work. Work does not qualify anyone for anything.
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That's what I think. True faith will manifest itself through action, but it's not done to get a "ticket" to heaven (as a lot of people who criticize Christianity inaccurately claim we believe), we already have that. If it was, even a little bit, about gaining salvation, then "works" would actually be about us and attaining our reward.
 
X Factor said:
That's what I think. True faith will manifest itself through action, but it's not done to get a "ticket" to heaven (as a lot of people who criticize Christianity inaccurately claim we believe), we already have that. If it was, even a little bit, about gaining salvation, then "works" would actually be about us and attaining our reward.
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5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
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Galatians 5 NIV - Freedom in Christ - It is for freedom - Bible Gateway
 
I've studied this for years, and this is the best article I've seen which puts it all into the proper perspective:

Justification by Faith – How believers are declared righteous by God « The Righter Report

Excerpt:

Initial saving faith is the precursor to works. Abraham was not saved (justified righteous) by performing works, he was performing works of a Godly nature because he first was saved and regenerated by faith. Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature. James’ argument addresses that time period of a person’s life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works are supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, “Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”
 
Logicman said:
I've studied this for years, and this is the best article I've seen which puts it all into the proper perspective:

Justification by Faith – How believers are declared righteous by God « The Righter Report

Excerpt:

Initial saving faith is the precursor to works. Abraham was not saved (justified righteous) by performing works, he was performing works of a Godly nature because he first was saved and regenerated by faith. Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature. James’ argument addresses that time period of a person’s life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works are supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, “Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”
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So, according to you, can justification be lost?
 
ecofarm said:
Work without faith is nothing. Faith produces work. Work does not qualify anyone for anything.
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And neither does faith alone produce anything. Faith alone is dead.
 
X Factor said:
That's what I think. True faith will manifest itself through action, but it's not done to get a "ticket" to heaven (as a lot of people who criticize Christianity inaccurately claim we believe), we already have that. If it was, even a little bit, about gaining salvation, then "works" would actually be about us and attaining our reward.
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It is more about sonship, being invited into God's family.

"But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name."

If justification is not a legalistic decree, but rather about being a son, then surely we can see how justification can be lost, and why faith alone, and why not even works alone, is not good enough. We cannot earn our inheritance, nor do we deserve it just for acknowledging our Father. I am fond of the train analogy.

Fish Eaters said:
An analogy: there is a train called "Grace" that is the one and only route to Heaven and which is fueled by Christ's Passion, Resurrection, and Ascension alone. Some Protestants seem to believe that all one has to do is believe the train exists and all will be well. They accuse Catholics of thinking that belief in the train is unecessary, that we can give out free soup in the train station and, thereby, bypass the train altogether. But what Catholics actually believe is that the train -- Grace -- is the only way to Heaven, that it is the only means by which we are saved, that we can't take another route and can do nothing about getting to Heaven without that train. But we also teach that we have to believe in the train's existence and board it through repentance and obedience to what Christ teaches. God is the Conductor of the train, completely Sovereign, and can go off the tracks if need be to pick up those who are truly and invincibly ignorant of the train's existence but who are of good will, obey the natural law, and whom He deigns to save. If, when, and how He might do such a thing is completely up to Him and not for us to bicker about. It is to us to do what He has taught us: to believe, repent, love God and neighbor, and preach the Gospel.
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Grace, Faith, and Works
 
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