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Salvation by Faith Alone! Not.

So, you believe that faith can be worthless?

As evidenced by the decadent families living in huge homes driving nice cars and not caring about anything that doesn't involve but still professing faith in Christ: yes. I'm not going to judge specific people, because I don't know all circumstances, but you know that they exist.
 
As evidenced by the decadent families living in huge homes driving nice cars and not caring about anything that doesn't involve but still professing faith in Christ: yes. I'm not going to judge specific people, because I don't know all circumstances, but you know that they exist.

I didn't ask about "professing faith". Of course that can be worthless. There's no argument there.

You are claiming that faith itself (the Spirit) can be worthless. I explained that this cannot be the case and, thus, one must look for other meaning in that verse. As you yourself have now made clear, as evidenced above, the only worthless faith is false faith. That is what was being referred to in the verse that you claim glorifies work (and thus creation).
 
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I didn't ask about "professing faith". Of course that can be worthless. There's no argument there.


You are claiming that faith can be worthless. I explained that this cannot be the case and, thus, one must look for other meaning in the verse. As you youself have now made clear, as evidenced above, the only worthless faith is false faith. That is what was being referred to in the verse that you claim glorifies work (thus creation).

So are you going to say that, by definition, faith without works is worthless? If so, then works are necessary as well.
 
I didn't ask about "professing faith". Of course that can be worthless. There's no argument there.

You are claiming that faith itself (the Spirit) can be worthless. I explained that this cannot be the case and, thus, one must look for other meaning in that verse. As you yourself have now made clear, as evidenced above, the only worthless faith is false faith. That is what was being referred to in the verse that you claim glorifies work (thus creation).

I'll pose to you the same question that I posed to Logicman:

"How you can justify sola fide when James directly contradicts it, John the Baptist insists on straightening the paths, Jesus tells us to strive for perfection, and St. Paul never says that faith alone is enough. "
 
I'll pose to you the same question that I posed to Logicman:

"How you can justify sola fide when James directly contradicts it, John the Baptist insists on straightening the paths, Jesus tells us to strive for perfection, and St. Paul never says that faith alone is enough. "

The Apostles are giving us advice on how to remain deeply faithful. It's best to consciously observe the Moral Law, so as to remain near the Spirit and be blessed by Its fruit.

How can God pronounce one righteous? We are saved through Christ. One can never stand before God alone, the Law cannot save anyone. This was the mistake of the Jews, wherein deeds and even payment established Spiritual enlightenment.
 
Being surrounded by evil men is no excuse to live in sin.

Agreed, which is not what I meant. To clarify, I said sometimes it's impossible to do acts when doing so would be dangerous, to you or someone else. But even then, you still have your faith. It's never easy to communicate ideas like these.

For example, a man imprisoned, alone in a cell can commit no acts.
Also, Jesus was stalwart in the face of evil and was crucified. When this happened, the apostles remained silent.

We are not gods, merely human. No matter how highly we think of ourselves in our faith to god, the sinful impulses return at times. But there is an excuse for sin, repentance, forgiveness, learning and moving on. We are "excused" by it.
 
So are you going to say that, by definition, faith without works is worthless? If so, then works are necessary as well.

Professed faith without works is worthless. The "professed" in that verse is understood through context; that context being - true faith is never worthless.

Read the verse properly (in full context) and stop with the idol worship.
 
Just in case I need to explain (a g a i n) how glorifying work is idolatry:

1. Work is creation, not Creator.
2. Thus, work cannot save.
3. If one believes creation can save, one is engaged in idolatry - worshiping creation.


So, aside from fisheaters.com (the OP link), who is claiming work saves.
 
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Are you trying to say that we should not try?

I'm not saying that we would ever accomplish perfection, but everywhere I look in the Bible tells me I should strive for perfection.

The issue is whether keeping the Law, etc., helps earn one salvation. It doesn't. But yeah, we should try to do better.
 
The issue is whether keeping the Law, etc., helps earn one salvation. It doesn't. But yeah, we should try to do better.
Perhaps it does help, if keeping the law changes the way we behave and makes us continually aware of our commitment.
 
I'm not denying the importance of faith. Far from it. However, I fail to see how you can justify sola fide when James directly contradicts it, John the Baptist insists on straightening the paths, Jesus tells us to strive for perfection, and St. Paul never says that faith alone is enough.

See my previous posts on these issues. And this article:

Justification by Faith – How believers are declared righteous by God « The Righter Report

PAUL AND JAMES – Are they in agreement with each other?

Much has been said over the years about salvation, justification, and works, and their relationship to each other. I think it is best to look at this from a chronological perspective, starting with the words of the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9:

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this
not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that
no one can boast.”

Paul makes the following points:

1. You are saved by (God’s) grace through faith (in Jesus Christ).
2. This salvation did not originate from yourselves.
3. It is the gift of God (therefore it cannot be earned).
4. This salvation is not by any type of works that a man can perform.

Back in Romans chapter 4, Paul gave an illustration from Genesis 15:6 concerning Abraham’s justification:

“If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something
to boast about – but not before God. What does the scripture
say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as
righteousness.” (Romans 4:2-3)

Now, going forward to James chapter 2 we read:

“What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but
has no deeds (works)? Can such faith save him? Faith, by
itself, if it is not accompanied by action (works – KJV), is dead.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds
is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous
for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You
see, a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”

James is clearly referring to Genesis chapter 22 (Paul referenced Genesis 15 – seven chapters earlier) as the point where Abraham was justified righteous. What we see here is an illustration that James uses to answer those people who are claiming to have saving faith but no works. Specifically, he states; “Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, ‘Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,’ but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? (what good is that man’s faith?)” In effect, James is saying, “You claim to have faith? You claim that God has saved you, put His Holy Spirit in you, and sealed you for redemption? You claim all these things and yet you let the poor go without food or clothes? What kind of a faith is that? I, James, will tell you quite frankly that if you possess the kind of saving faith that results in regeneration and changes a person’s life, the Holy Spirit will do a work in you and cause you to follow the Lord’s decrees (Ezekiel 36:27) and feed and clothe the poor.”

What legalists miss is that ABRAM WAS ALREADY DECLARED RIGHTEOUS IN GENESIS 15:6, 7 CHAPTERS BEFORE JAMES SAYS HE WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS.

Well, what then does Paul state about works as proof that a person’s life is changed? Perhaps not surprisingly, he agrees with James:

“I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove
their repentance by their deeds (works).” (Acts 26:20)

So why did Paul state in Ephesians that a person is saved by grace through faith, and not by works? And why did he refer to Genesis 15:6 as the point of Abraham’s justification and not Genesis 22?

Initial saving faith is the precursor to works. Abraham was not saved (justified righteous) by performing works, he was performing works od A Godly nature because he first was saved and regenerated by faith. Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature. James’ argument addresses that time period of a person’s life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works are supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, “Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”
 
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Perhaps it does help, if keeping the law changes the way we behave and makes us continually aware of our commitment.

The fruit of the Spirit encourages.
 
There are no scriptures that say grace ALONE is enough.
Grace is conditional....it is a gift, but must be accepted, the proof of which is demonstrated by actions.
This is an argument that needs more quotes from Christ, less from Paul.
Matthew chap. 25 pretty much nails it, the part about doing things for the least among us is the same as doing things for Christ.
If all you do with your life is live for yourself, ignoring others, there isn't enough grace to compensate for your sins of omission....
 
For those who say they must also do works to help earn their salvation,

1. How many works are required?
2. When do you know you have done enough and are now saved?
3. Precisely what kind of works must you do?
4. Why does God declare Abram righteous by faith in Genesis 15:6 if he needs to do more works?
 
Salvation is by grace alone; a grace only Jesus could provide. It cannot be earned.

"Salvation is by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast".


It is a corollary that real faith will produces changes in the person, thus, "works"... but the works themselves are not an aid to salvation, but rather a result of it.
 
This is an argument that needs more quotes from Christ, less from Paul.

"I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die...."
 
There are no scriptures that say grace ALONE is enough.
Grace is conditional....it is a gift, but must be accepted, the proof of which is demonstrated by actions.
This is an argument that needs more quotes from Christ, less from Paul.
Matthew chap. 25 pretty much nails it, the part about doing things for the least among us is the same as doing things for Christ.
If all you do with your life is live for yourself, ignoring others, there isn't enough grace to compensate for your sins of omission....

If something is conditional, it's not a gift, it's earned.
 
"I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die...."

I love that quote. There is a ton of just great, poetic language in the Bible.
 
That's what I think. True faith will manifest itself through action, but it's not done to get a "ticket" to heaven (as a lot of people who criticize Christianity inaccurately claim we believe), we already have that. If it was, even a little bit, about gaining salvation, then "works" would actually be about us and attaining our reward.

I do think that "good works" flow naturally from faith. Sola fide--by faith alone.

Grace is free. Unearned, unmerited, undeserved. This doesn't mean that the cost of discipleship, to reference Dietrich Bonhoeffer, can be cheap.
 
James 2: 14-26

Instead, this seems like a good summation of what it takes to be saved.

In context, here is a good summation of what it takes to be saved...

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
 
From Dietrich Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship:

“Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: 'Ye were bought at a price', and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.”
 
For we labor diligently to write to persuade our children, and also our brethren to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace we are saved after all we can do’ (2 Nephi 25:23).


‘There is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah’ (2 Nephi 2:8).

Quotes from a couple of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that I agree with:

"Grace is indeed an essential element of our salvation. In the church, we believe that we must do all we can in our power to be righteous and keep the commandments. Therefore, it is through our works, along with the mercy and grace of our Father that we can return to him."-Amanda



"The grace of God is a gift that allows us to be able to return to his presence again someday. However, it is not merely a one-time gift that we accept and then receive salvation. The grace of God works within us day by day to change us to be more like our Father in Heaven and our Savior. The apostle Paul declared "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Corinthians 15:10). While Paul had a mighty experience on the road to Damascus sparking his conversion (Acts 9), he went on living the faith, preaching the gospel, and serving his fellow man. He allowed the grace of God to work within him until he became a mighty servant of Jesus Christ. As we strive to follow the Savior, His grace will continue to bless our lives and bring us home to Him again in heaven."-Joshua

What do Mormons believe concerning the doctrine of grace? | Mormon.org
 
There are no scriptures that say grace ALONE is enough.

Wtf dude, that's the gospel.

Through faith in Christ we are sheltered from our sins, deemed righteous and granted eternal life. Amen.
 
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