Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Medusa said:

l am not arabian ,dont speak arabian

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phattonez said:

From the Catechism 404:

There is little to no evidence that original sin is passed on only through men. In fact, it is more plausible that it is also passed on through women.

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tosca1 said:

What kind of evidence would show, I wonder? How would original sin look like?

I've got a mental visual of someone using a magnifying glass on a person looking for "evidence" of original sin! :lamo

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phattonez said:

Your true colors reveal themselves more and more with every post.

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There is little to no evidence that original sin is passed on only through men.

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tosca1 said:

Well, I'm reacting to your statement:

There is little to no evidence that original sin is passed on only through men.

How is it possible to find evidence about that?

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phattonez said:

You tell me, you're the one who said that it's only passed on through men.

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tosca1 said:

Praying to Mary and to the saints was brought up a while back in one of the topics. It's buried in one of the threads and I can't remember where or who posted it, therefore I'm addressing that here.

When pointed out that only Jesus Christ can intercede for us....

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JJB3333 said:

Its true that only god can intercede for us, but the idea of praying to Mary is an old catholic idea. It arose from the idea that Mary was so perfect that god decided to make her the mother of god in earthly form. The church originally set out the idea that god was to great for us to speak to directly through our prayers, because why would god of all care about the common man. instead the church made the idea that we could pray to Mary, who was still human even though sainted, and as the mother of Christ and a women, she would have more compassion on us sinners and care more about us. it was an... questionable idea sense the bible says that god loves us all and he himself would leave the 99 faithful to go find the 1 astray.

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phattonez said:

Not actually true.

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JJB3333 said:

Really and tell me what is true all knowing one.

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JJB3333 said:

it was an... questionable idea sense the bible says that god loves us all and he himself would leave the 99 faithful to go find the 1 astray.

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phattonez said:

No one is more compassionate than our Lord.

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tosca1 said:

When I re-discovered Jesus Christ - it was through a non-denominational tv Evangelist named, Charles Price.
I've never cared for evangelism on tv for I've always associated them with scams and wolves in sheep's clothings.
At the time I was experiencing a serious "restlessness," and had this void inside me that had to be filled, and I knew it's about my faith. I hardly ever opened the Bible (tried it once but the words were just too much to comprehend that I never bothered again), but it beckoned (my dad read it everyday, and I hoped to be like him someday).
There were subtle indications that God was trying to help me find my way towards Him, and I did. I'd prayed on my own to Him....gave myself up to Him (and I felt His blessings on numerous times, in different ways). But I still didn't find the time to open the Bible. Reading and understanding the Bible intimidated me!
Until that morning while I was surfing the channels I "accidentally stumbled" onto this preacher Charles Price - he was talking about the rocky road to faith. He would read passages from the Bible, and then explained them in layman's terms. And I saw the message so simply explained. And He showed the importance of reading within the context - of not quoting a singe verse here and there - but to read the whole paragraph or section and to know what the subject is all about. Charles Price made it look so easy to read and understand the Bible that I opened my Bible and began reading everyday (like my dad did), and I will do so until I can do no more.

Questions I've asked Him were answered - the answers came from different sources (one time it was from a clip of a sermon from the previous Pope who died that was played on the radio, a lot of times I find the answers in the Bible) - and you'll know when He's giving you the answer, He'll let you realize that.

At one time, I doubted that it was an answer to my question (I told Him) - He gave a reassurance that it was!
Incidentally, that question pertains to my participation in forums (debating). Here's my testimony for that particular incident:

I was preparing to attend a Christian Workshop sponsored by Billy Graham (Rock The River), and while I was in the shower, my mind was preoccupied by my participation in religion debates in forums. I was afraid that I might be turning people off (that was more or less the wording I asked of God), that I might be doing more harm than good. It was a bit early when I got to the workshop, so as we sat in the auditorium waiting for the speaker I leafed through the pamphlets given to us.
Finally the speaker came on stage and boomed in a John Goodman-voice, "ARE YOU AFRAID YOU MIGHT BE TURNING PEOPLE OFF?"
You bet he got my attention! Then he went through some visuals about light switches....the message was: "you can't turn anyone off who are already 'off.' Go for it!" Excited was an understatement - I even told the speaker he just answered my question!
However, later on the way home, my euphoria started to ebb down. I began having doubts : am I just being over zealous? Was that really the answer? Or, did I just want it to be the answer? I communicated those questions to God.
The next morning when I opened my Bible and read the passage, the answer hit me. I can't recall which verse it was exactly, but it was a time when Jesus was DEBATING with Pharisees and skeptics, and He was quoting from the OT (as any modern-day debators would quote their sources to back-up their statements). What struck me most too was that He was aggressive about it!
Then I knew in my heart this was an answer, and a reassurance. You'll know.


At one time, also involving debates, I was getting personally hammered on two different forums. I read a Bible verse that morning that says: "Do not be afraid. I've got friends in the city." I didn't connect that to anything - why would I? It was later in the day when I looked back and understood. At one site, someone suddenly came on the forum (a non-believer to boot) - never heard of him before - and took my side, and berated the board. At another site the same thing happened, another member came up and aggressively defended me.

Why am I giving these testimonies? To let you know that all you need is God!
You don't have to go praying to other "intercessors." Do exactly what He instructed us to do. Obey Him.
Give Him all the glory, honor and praise! ALL! Only to Him!
Go directly to Jesus/God. Develop a personal relationship with Him....talk to Him as you would talk to a Father or a friend. EXPERIENCE Him.

An Act of God is usually precipitated by an act of obedience.

May the merciful Lord bless us all and keep us from going astray. May He enlighten our mind and hearts, and open our eyes that we may see. May we find our solace and comfort in Him, and acknowledge with humbleness that He's all we need. Our God, our Father and our Saviour. All glory and honor to Him alone. Amen.

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tosca1 said:

Yes.

God loves us so that He sent His only begotten Son to die for us that we may have salvation and eternal life. Furthermore, the explicit instructions of Jesus - His teachings about praying (taught us how to pray with The Lord's Prayer as the blueprint), His numerous examples (He prayed directly to the Father with no call for help to the dead saints from the OT), repeated warnings about idol worships, His emphasis on the First Commandment as the most important Commandment of all, and Him being the ONLY MEDIATOR (and He is God incarnate) - truly indicate that God wants us to have a personal relationship with Him.

That's what we Christians must try to develop and nurture. A personal relationship with God.

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Praying to Mary and other saints - though with good intentions on the part of the Christian - is creating a "barrier" between him and God. No matter how man will try to justify the acts of praying to Mary/saints, the result will always be the same: it is an act of disobedience.

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The day I decided to stop praying to Mary, and ceased any mention of her at all, I knew in my heart that it was what the real biblical Mary would've wanted me to do. What I've been doing all the years from childhood - the habit of praying to Mary - had to cease.
It has to be with the determination and very deliberate effort to make sure that it indeed stopped. There was a feeling of "discomfort" at first - perhaps it's Satan's attempt to deceitfully lure me back away from God - but I prayed to God to help me do what was written in the Scriptures. I'm trying to follow what you said, I prayed.

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If the real biblical Mary were alive today, she would've approved wholeheartedly, after all she supported and upheld the teachings of Jesus. She knew who Jesus was! What righteous woman - especially, someone who knew about Jesus being the Messiah - would thwart and go against His teachings? That's not only the truth, but it's also logical!

So that's another contradiction from the Scriptures right there!

A Christian has to sit back and question why all these numerous contradictions to the Scriptures? Where is this leading us?
Who inspired this idea in the minds of men?

The real biblical Mary - being highly favoured for her righteousness - will never contradict or create conflict with her Son, the Scriptures, and the will of God!

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tosca1 said:

Chez and Montserrat, you can both insist that prayers to Mary are not actually prayers to Mary, and that it's not worshipping Mary.....but whom are you kidding? You may both believe that, but some of us, don't.
We see them for what they are. What's mind-boggling is, why can't you?

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This one blatantly announces it: It's a prayer!

Prayer to Our Mother of Perpetual Help
https://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=322

How do you deflect from that? The prayer includes...



Notice how Mary was made to supplant Jesus.
The NT teaches that our actions will show how we - as Christians - are modeled after JESUS CHRIST.


And below, Mary was made to supplant God/Jesus.




Part of the lyrics to the song Immaculate Mother (sang during novena to Mother of Perpetual help) indicate that she is indeed worshipped.


Immaculate Mother (Lyrics and Chords) | Catholic Songbook™


The following shows numerous prayers and services done for Mary (glorified in various titles). Scroll down.

More Marian (Mary) Prayers
https://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=322


Whoever brought all these to the Catholic Church must have done so with good intentions - however, the inspiration couldn't have come from God, simply because they're all against the teachings/instructions of God.

And they're all distractions! They draw the Christian away from worship, of giving prayers of supplications, glorification and praises directly to God/Jesus.

It is idolatry. Disguised idolatry.

And since Mary, the mother of Jesus is being used, it's an insult to, and bastardization of the real Biblical Mary.

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Monserrat said:

I gave you the definition of prayer, throughout the years it's meaning has not only been as an address to God, in the english language you would frequently see it being used as a request. "I pray thee do tell..." My point here is that when we as Catholics use the term pray when it applies to Mary and the saints it is absolutely not the same as what we mean when we pray to Jesus. Jesus is God, Mary and the saints are not. What they are though are individuals who are in a very good position to pray for us. I don't know why it's so difficult for you to understand this but it's the same thing as asking your neighbor to pray for you or your family or someone and that idea is taken straight out of the bible (I posted some of the relevant scripture earlier) since we are called to pray for others.




For the rest of your post you are picking up random things off of the internet, I already mentioned that not everyone who calls themselves Catholic follows the teachings of the Church. If you want to take issue with the Church then you have to go to the CCC read it, find out what the church actually teaches and then make an argument against that otherwise you're just spreading gossip and rumors.

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tosca1 said:

My examples were mostly taken from the novena of Mother of Perpetual help. I'm familiar with that since I usually attended it. They speak for themselves.

I just read Deuteronomy 12 this morning - it's about warning against idolatry.


Deuteronomy 12
29 When the Lord thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

The pagans had idolized statues of gods and goddesses. God instructed the Jews not to copycat the pagan way of worships.


Anyway, I've already pointed out and explained - as given in the Scriptures. At least I tried. The rest is up to you.

Free will. Your choice.

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Monserrat said:

Your examples NEED to be taken straight from Church teaching. You can find that in the Catechism: Catechism of the Catholic Church

If you can't make your case based on actual Church teaching then we're done here...you're just wasting everybodies time propagating vicious rumors and idle gossip. I have yet to see you even quote anything that's taken straight from the Church, why do you think it's okay to talk about Catholic Church teaching yet not even look at actual Church teaching?

The quotation about false idols is irrelevant here, it's irrelevant to what the church ACTUALLY teaches.


Edit add: This is part of what the ccc says about prayer:

2680 Prayer is primarily addressed to the Father; it can also be directed toward Jesus, particularly by the invocation of his holy name: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners."

2681 "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor 12:3). The Church invites us to invoke the Holy Spirit as the interior Teacher of Christian prayer.

2682 Because of Mary's singular cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray in communion with the Virgin Mary, to magnify with her the great things the Lord has done for her, and to entrust supplications and praises to her.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The way of prayer

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tosca1 said:

The idol worship quoted from Deuteronomy isn't irrelevant. It applies. Also emphasized by Jesus in the NT!

Free will, Montserrat. Your choice.

I've exhausted everything I've got to say....I think. I'll just bow out for now.

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nota bene said:

And dissension among the brethren.

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nota bene said:

My priests? My, but you do presume.

You ignored what I bolded entirely. You can’t separate the fifth line from the first, which begins the chapter. Those words are “I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men.” Who is being exhorted to supplicate, pray, intercede, and give thanks for all men (humankind)?

But never mind, Tosca. While I admire your sincerity and also your scholarship very much, you assume too much, know and understand too little, and have revealed your agenda here. However noble your intent—saving deluded Catholics—you are bashing them and their church.

I have never identified my denomination. “Follower of Christ” works for me, and I try to avoid participating in threads that create dissension among the brethren because it’s counterproductive. Protestants and “Catholics” have much to learn from each other, and we begin with respect because we all are, after all, brothers and sisters.

Stop worrying about who is speaking in tongues or genuflecting or sitting when you think they should stand/standing when you think they should sit. It doesn’t matter; it’s a distraction. Just keep praying for all the fools—that is, if you agree that it is we who should be praying and offering supplications and intercessions for all humankind.

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Logicman said:

Amen to that. Here's a tidbit and a great read for you that will get you fired up on getting the Word out.

Some years ago, an old English preacher by the name of Smith Wigglesworth remarked, “If you leave people as you found them, God is not speaking through you. If you are not making people either mad or glad, there is something wrong with your ministry. If there’s not a (spiritual) war going on, you’re not doing your job.”

Another commentator, a gentleman by the name of Arthur Wallis, speaking on the apostolic style of preaching that we see in the Book of Acts, said, “Such preaching makes indifference to the word of God impossible – it sets the hearers into one of two camps. It’s calculated to either produce a revival or a riot.”

God’s Little Troublemakers « The Righter Report

God bless!

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tosca1 said:

Anyway, I've already pointed out and explained - as given in the Scriptures. At least I tried. The rest is up to you.

Free will. Your choice.

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tosca1 said:

Only if you make it personal.

I think it's sensible to say that mature debators in a forum/discussion board, know enough not to take things personally.
Attack the message, not the messenger.

Heated discussions erupt especially when we talk about religion or any other contentious issues.

You prefer to wash your hands and just focus on yourself - that's fine. You don't pray to Mary (from what I understand). That's good too. But when you take a stand to try to silence someone who try to show them where they're making a grievous mistake.....you become an abettor of that mistake.

Furthermore, you've already told me what you think of me.



And I responded to that and explained my position in posts #55, 56, 57 and #65.


Btw, Montserrat addressed me, thus I came back to this thread to respond to her.

Who addressed you?

If you sincerely feel that this thread is causing dissension among brethrens....then you shouldn't take part in it.
And especially you shouldn't take snipes. :lol: You should excuse yourself. No one is forcing you to join us.

Cheers.

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nota bene said:

You are creating dissension, and you become more aggressively shrill with each post. So father than provide you with additional occasion for sin, I will leave you to your scolding and your desire to create heat rather than light.

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