Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:

So if you claim they're in the same state as you are in....what state is that?

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A sinner with no guarantee of Heaevn.

Where in the Scriptures does it says that?

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The Infancy Narratives where she gives birth to Jesus.

Anyway, you admit that you do glorify her and do all those things that are supposed to be done only for God.

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Admiration is disapproved of? Interesting.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

phattonez said:

A sinner with no guarantee of Heaevn.
The Infancy Narratives where she gives birth to Jesus.
Admiration is disapproved of? Interesting.

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If you say that Mary is perfect....then she has guarantee of heaven.
If someone perfect has no gurantee of heaven, how much more us, who are not perfect?
I think we're definitely done here.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:

If you say that Mary is perfect....then she has guarantee of heaven.

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Absolutely. She is in Heaven.

If someone perfect has no gurantee of heaven, how much more us, who are not perfect?
I think we're definitely done here.

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But she is in Heaven, so what's the problem?

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:

Do you make images of your priests and congregation members?

Do you PRAY and beseech your congregation members to pray for you?

Do you sing praises of your congregation members, kneel down before them....that they may pray for you?

Do you offer novenas to your congregation members so they'll hear you and pray for you?

Do you make a litany of repeated requests to your congregation members - incessantly "nagging" them to pray and intercede for you?

Do you leave all the praying and interceding to God to your congregation members?

Speaking for myself, I do not ask my fellow- members or my pastor to do all the praying and interceding for me. I pray WITH them.....because Jesus had said,


Matt 18
"Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.


I think that there is more to this verse than just simply stated. Of course I'm speculating.
"AGREE about anything" could be a significant phrase - there must be a lot of squabbling among disciples during Jesus' time. And how Jesus emphasized so much the significance of ONE-ness in Him.

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My priests? My, but you do presume.

You ignored what I bolded entirely. You can’t separate the fifth line from the first, which begins the chapter. Those words are “I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men.” Who is being exhorted to supplicate, pray, intercede, and give thanks for all men (humankind)?

But never mind, Tosca. While I admire your sincerity and also your scholarship very much, you assume too much, know and understand too little, and have revealed your agenda here. However noble your intent—saving deluded Catholics—you are bashing them and their church.

I have never identified my denomination. “Follower of Christ” works for me, and I try to avoid participating in threads that create dissension among the brethren because it’s counterproductive. Protestants and “Catholics” have much to learn from each other, and we begin with respect because we all are, after all, brothers and sisters.

Stop worrying about who is speaking in tongues or genuflecting or sitting when you think they should stand/standing when you think they should sit. It doesn’t matter; it’s a distraction. Just keep praying for all the fools—that is, if you agree that it is we who should be praying and offering supplications and intercessions for all humankind.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

nota bene said:

My priests? My, but you do presume.

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I was responding to your statement:

One Mediator. Many intercessors...anyone who prays.

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Intercessor means the same thing: Mediator.

a person who attempts to make people involved in a conflict come to an agreement; a go-between.
"the government appointed a mediator to assist in finding a resolution to the dispute"
synonyms: arbitrator, arbiter, negotiator, conciliator, go-between, middleman, intermediary, moderator, intervenor, interceder, intercessor, reconciler, broker, honest broker, liaison officer, peacemaker, umpire, referee,

Do we call ourselves now "intercessors/mediators" too between God and fellow-men? I may be praying for you, but I don't think I'll be calling myself an intercessor!
I may pray and PLEAD for you - but do I think I have any bargaining power or any authority to negotiate or become the "middle-man" between you and God?
Now, that, would be presumptuous! Especially so when Christ had said there is ONLY ONE Mediator! And that's HIM!

How can one mediator be multiplied to become many intercessors? That is, if we're to follow what's Biblically stated?


You said, anyone who prays .....Thus I asked:

Do you make images of your priests and congregation members?

Do you PRAY and beseech your congregation members to pray for you?

Do you sing praises of your congregation members, kneel down before them....that they may pray for you?

Do you offer novenas to your congregation members so they'll hear you and pray for you?

Do you make a litany of repeated requests to your congregation members - incessantly "nagging" them to pray and intercede for you?

Do you leave all the praying and interceding to God to your congregation members?

Speaking for myself, I do not ask my fellow- members or my pastor to do all the praying and interceding for me. I pray WITH them.....because Jesus had said,

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Have you read my OP at all? I gave the reason why I created this particular thread. The rationalization that some people give is to say that, praying to Mary and the saints is similar to asking for others to pray for you. And I'm pointing out that it's not - thus all those things I enumerated in the form of questions showing why it's not!


I know you're a Christian, but I don't know what denomination you belong to....and that's not important. I don't care much for denominations.
I did not presume anything. If you're not doing those sorts of things - obviously the shoe doesn't fit! And rightly so, since this is not personal....so let's not turn it into something personal!

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

nota bene said:

You ignored what I bolded entirely. You can’t separate the fifth line from the first, which begins the chapter. Those words are “I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men.” Who is being exhorted to supplicate, pray, intercede, and give thanks for all men (humankind)?

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I did not ignore that statement! You're missing the whole point.

Yes, we are supposed to pray for one another.
Nota Bene, when you ask your church members to pray for you,

Do you make images of your priests (or pastor, or whatever you call him), and congregation members?

Do you PRAY to your members and beseech them to pray for you?

Do you sing praises of your congregation members, kneel down before them....that they may pray for you? Do you glorify them....that they may pray for you?

Here is a sample of a hymn sang at Wednesday novenas:

Immaculate Mother

Immaculate Mother
We come at thy call
And low at thy altar
Before thee we fall

Refrain:
Ave, Ave, Ave Maria
Ave, Ave, Ave Maria

We pray for our country
The land of our birth
We pray for all nations
That peace be on earth
(Repeat Refrain)

In grief and temptation
In joy and in pain
We'll seek thee our mother
Nor seek thee in vain
(Repeat Refrain)

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(Take note from that hymn, she's given her own altar) Do you make shrines or altars for those congregation members?

Do you offer novenas to your congregation members so they'll hear you and pray for you?

Do you make a litany of repeated requests to your congregation members - incessantly "nagging" them to pray and intercede for you?
---------------------------

Nota Bene, do you see?

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

nota bene said:

But never mind, Tosca. While I admire your sincerity and also your scholarship very much, you assume too much, know and understand too little, and have revealed your agenda here. However noble your intent—saving deluded Catholics—you are bashing them and their church.

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I know this is a difficult subject to bring up, but sometimes we have to speak out even if we know that it will not be welcomed.


Either you've missed my previous post:

Tosca
I don't know if I'm articulating myself clearly here. I'm not bashing the Catholic Church - I'm not saying it's teachings are bad, or anything like that. But like everything else (including other churches like Protestants etc.), the leaders are only human. We have to be very vigilant that we do not get blindly swayed or influenced just like the Jews in the OT.
As brothers in Christ, we've got to help one another to do what is righteous in the eyes of God.
Keep the faith strong!

Tosca
Again, I'm not saying that the Catholic Teachings is not good.

But as in everything - including the Protestant Teachings - we have to be vigilant that we do not drift away from the Teachings of Jesus.
Some leaders - with their own good intentions - could just as easily get carried away and before you know it, they're adding to, and twisting the Teachings of Jesus.
What better example than those who now support abortion and gay marriage?

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Or you simply ignored them. As Christians, we are allowed to rebuke.

I don't know what agenda you think I have, but I know my "agenda." As for admiration, what must I do in exchange in order to have that? What Biblical Teachings do I have to give up?

It is difficult. Especially with this particular subject that involves Mary.
On one hand I do not want to rock the boat....on the other hand, Do I just stand by in a forum and let others - especially those who are still seeking for truth - be misguided by the comparison being made between asking saints and congregation members to pray for you?

A lot of the Christian values had been chipped away over time because we let it so by being apathetic or compliant...and we go along for a variety of reasons: pressure from society, fear of losing status in the eyes of others, being shunned, we swallow and end up believing the propagandas and we lose our compass along with it, we get confused because of it.....and we end up buying what's worldly.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:

Do you make images of your priests and congregation members?

Do you PRAY and beseech your congregation members to pray for you?

Do you sing praises of your congregation members, kneel down before them....that they may pray for you?

Do you offer novenas to your congregation members so they'll hear you and pray for you?

Do you make a litany of repeated requests to your congregation members - incessantly "nagging" them to pray and intercede for you?

Do you leave all the praying and interceding to God to your congregation members?

Speaking for myself, I do not ask my fellow- members or my pastor to do all the praying and interceding for me. I pray WITH them.....because Jesus had said,


Matt 18
"Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.


I think that there is more to this verse than just simply stated. Of course I'm speculating.
"AGREE about anything" could be a significant phrase - there must be a lot of squabbling among disciples during Jesus' time. And how Jesus emphasized so much the significance of ONE-ness in Him.

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Human beings are very visual creatures, our eyesight is the number relied upon sense of all of our senses. We take pictures to capture special occasions to help us to keep loved ones in our thoughts. When my older brother first went away to college I remember my mother holding a picture of him and thinking of him. Was she worshiping him? Of course not that would be silly. Are people worshiping mother mary when they look at a picture or statue? Not if they are Catholic and in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church. They may be on their knees in a show of humility or respect, I know it may be odd to see especially coming from the culture of the western world since such gestures of humility and respect aren't seen as such they aren't widely practiced and are seen as more of a sign of weakness.

I hope that answered your first question sufficiently.

I sing praises of my new hair brush that when used correctly with my hair dryer makes it so I don't have to use my flat iron...skips a step in the morning and saves on my hair. I don't care what they tell you but the heat protectant product that I use doesn't work as well as it's suppose to. Does that mean I worship my new brush? No, I just really like it and I like to sing about random things. When people are happy they sometimes do that, so again we get back to the part where people are simply asking for others to pray for them? I wouldn't ask my congregation to pray for me, I have a large family that works just fine but the basic idea behind asking Mary and the saints to pray for you is that they already got all their ducks in a row, any help from them isn't going to hurt.

Novenas are prayers with flair there are different ones, which one do you have an issue with an what's the issue you have with it?

If someone kept asking me to pray for them I wouldn't tell them to go away because they were nagging me, would you?

and just because some Catholics ask for extra prayers doesn't mean they aren't praying to Jesus as well...


My advice to you if you are actually interested in what the Catholic church teaches is to skip over CARM, they butcher their explanation of Catholic dogma worst then I destroyed the last pie that I tried to make and it was pretty bad. It's not really fair of you too look anywhere else then the source. If the Vatican site is too much for you then I would recommend new advent.com it's an excellent resource although if you aren't all that grounded in basic christian theology and history then you might find it a bit confusing. Here's a page on intercession, I hope it helps to clear up your questions even further:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Intercession

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:

Praying to Mary and to the saints was brought up a while back in one of the topics. It's buried in one of the threads and I can't remember where or who posted it, therefore I'm addressing that here.

When pointed out that only Jesus Christ can intercede for us....

It was posted that they do not worship Mary and the Saints. That praying to Mary and to the Saints is similar to asking your priest or preacher - or any members of your congregation to pray to God and intercede for you or to anyone.

Reading Deuteronomy 5: 7-10, how can I believe the reasoning that was given above? We're dealing with THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT OF ALL - and that is according to Jesus, when asked which commandment of all was the greatest. I feel compelled to speak out about this.

Contrary to the reasoning being given, praying to Mary and the Saints is not similar at all to asking our priests or congregation to pray for us.

Let's look at the verses again.





First of all, we do not make graven images of our priests or members of the congregation.

Second, we do not bow and give praises, we do not beseech our priests or members of the congregation to pray for us.
As Christians, they know the importance about praying for others! They don't have to be asked FERVENTLY to give a hand (in the form of prayers).

Read that First Commandment carefully, I urge you.


Third, Praying for others is showing love. It is an act of love. It is THE SECOND MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT.


Fourth, praying is not an act of intercession - ONLY CHRIST has the title of Intercessor. When we pray, it is simply following the "tip" that was given by Jesus that prayers done by more people are heard.

King James Bible
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.



Fifth, we do not ask the dead to pray for us. If we should, why not pray to Abraham, Isaiah, or Elijah?
Abraham was able to successfully NEGOTIATE with God when he tried to save Sodom and Gomorrah, therefore if we should ask anyone among the dead to pray for us....Abraham would be a good choice.


Note: please move this to Religion Section. Thanks.

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So you don't pray for your parents, friends? Do you ask them to pray for you? What it's the difference?

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:

I did not ignore that statement! You're missing the whole point.

Yes, we are supposed to pray for one another.
Nota Bene, when you ask your church members to pray for you,

Do you make images of your priests (or pastor, or whatever you call him), and congregation members?

Do you PRAY to your members and beseech them to pray for you?

Do you sing praises of your congregation members, kneel down before them....that they may pray for you? Do you glorify them....that they may pray for you?

Here is a sample of a hymn sang at Wednesday novenas:



(Take note from that hymn, she's given her own altar) Do you make shrines or altars for those congregation members?

Do you offer novenas to your congregation members so they'll hear you and pray for you?

Do you make a litany of repeated requests to your congregation members - incessantly "nagging" them to pray and intercede for you?
---------------------------

Nota Bene, do you see?

Click to expand...

I have no clue where you got your song from but this is a novena:

"Day One

O most Holy Virgin, who was pleasing to the Lord and became His mother, immaculate in body and spirit, in faith and in love, look kindly on me as I implore your powerful intercession. O most Holy Mother, who by your blessed Immaculate Conception, from the first moment of your conception did crush the head of the enemy, receive our prayers as we implore you to present at the throne of God the favor we now request...
(State your intention here...)
O Mary of the Immaculate Conception, Mother of Christ, you had influence with your Divine Son while upon this earth; you have the same influence now in heaven. Pray for us and obtain for us from him the granting of my petition if it be the Divine Will.
Amen."

Nine Days Of Prayer - Immaculate Conception


Feel free to read through the whole thing, notice how it's doing just what I said Catholics do when they pray to Mary and the saints they very very respectfully ask for prayers and you see that in each prayer on each day.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Once upon a time, there was only the Catholic Church. The only reason any protestant churches even exist today is because the king of England wanted to divorce his wife, so he broke away and formed his own church.

Exodus 20:14 "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

"And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." —Mark 1:1-12


So the protestant church was born out of sin.... it was born out of adultery. Sin is of the devil. How can something born of the devil ever turn out to be good? How can something that divides God's church be good?

Think about that.

tosca1 said:

Praying to Mary and to the saints was brought up a while back in one of the topics. It's buried in one of the threads and I can't remember where or who posted it, therefore I'm addressing that here.

When pointed out that only Jesus Christ can intercede for us....

It was posted that they do not worship Mary and the Saints. That praying to Mary and to the Saints is similar to asking your priest or preacher - or any members of your congregation to pray to God and intercede for you or to anyone.

Reading Deuteronomy 5: 7-10, how can I believe the reasoning that was given above? We're dealing with THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT OF ALL - and that is according to Jesus, when asked which commandment of all was the greatest. I feel compelled to speak out about this.

Contrary to the reasoning being given, praying to Mary and the Saints is not similar at all to asking our priests or congregation to pray for us.

Let's look at the verses again.





First of all, we do not make graven images of our priests or members of the congregation.

Second, we do not bow and give praises, we do not beseech our priests or members of the congregation to pray for us.
As Christians, they know the importance about praying for others! They don't have to be asked FERVENTLY to give a hand (in the form of prayers).

Read that First Commandment carefully, I urge you.


Third, Praying for others is showing love. It is an act of love. It is THE SECOND MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT.


Fourth, praying is not an act of intercession - ONLY CHRIST has the title of Intercessor. When we pray, it is simply following the "tip" that was given by Jesus that prayers done by more people are heard.

King James Bible
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.



Fifth, we do not ask the dead to pray for us. If we should, why not pray to Abraham, Isaiah, or Elijah?
Abraham was able to successfully NEGOTIATE with God when he tried to save Sodom and Gomorrah, therefore if we should ask anyone among the dead to pray for us....Abraham would be a good choice.


Note: please move this to Religion Section. Thanks.

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Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

I by no means would profess to be a Biblical scholar as some here obviously are, but this story would seem to create a contradiction with the OP which has me confused:

Vatican declares healing of Colorado Springs boy a miracle after prayers to German nun - The Denver Post

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

CLAX1911 said:

So you don't pray for your parents, friends? Do you ask them to pray for you? What it's the difference?

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I just explained the difference. Scroll back.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Monserrat said:

I have no clue where you got your song from but this is a novena:

"Day One

O most Holy Virgin, who was pleasing to the Lord and became His mother, immaculate in body and spirit, in faith and in love, look kindly on me as I implore your powerful intercession. O most Holy Mother, who by your blessed Immaculate Conception, from the first moment of your conception did crush the head of the enemy, receive our prayers as we implore you to present at the throne of God the favor we now request...
(State your intention here...)
O Mary of the Immaculate Conception, Mother of Christ, you had influence with your Divine Son while upon this earth; you have the same influence now in heaven. Pray for us and obtain for us from him the granting of my petition if it be the Divine Will.
Amen."

Nine Days Of Prayer - Immaculate Conception


Feel free to read through the whole thing, notice how it's doing just what I said Catholics do when they pray to Mary and the saints they very very respectfully ask for prayers and you see that in each prayer on each day.

Click to expand...

That hymn Immaculate Concepcion was sang on Wenesday's novena. Btw, were you ever a Catholic? I grew up as one thus everything we did was ingrained in memory.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

nota bene said:

My Stop worrying about who is speaking in tongues or genuflecting or sitting when you think they should stand/standing when you think they should sit. It doesn’t matter; it’s a distraction. Just keep praying for all the fools—that is, if you agree that it is we who should be praying and offering supplications and intercessions for all humankind.

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Thank you for reminding me about that. I understand....we shouldn't be arguing about the petty things.

I've always tried to maintain the position that we - Christians - shouldn't be squabbling on forums. But like I said, I've wrestled with myself whether to post this thread or not. It took me quite a while responding to that particular post I've read sometime ago. It was reading Deuteronomy that prodded me to post - I didn't even had the chance to read the rest - I just stood up and went for the computer!

The First Commandment cannot be taken lightly.

8 ¶ Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: Ex. 34.17 · Lev. 19.4 ; 26.1 · Deut. 4.15-19 ; 27.15 for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. Ex. 34.6, 7 · Num. 14.18 · Deut. 7.9, 10


The First Commandment however, is the most important of all! To compare it to "eating pork," or "genuflecting" is to make light of it! Those are not even listed among the 10 covenants we made with God!

Yes indeed, it's difficult. Should I, or should I not post a response to a statement made a while back? Do I try to maintain peace - since I know this is a very contentious issue - or do I try to point out where the mistakes/misconception(s) are that clearly violates what Jesus had described to be the most important Commandment of all?
Should I maintain the attitude of indifference - every man for himself? Would that be Christian-like, to watch brothers/sisters merrily and unwittingly following the Pied Piper down to perdition without at least voicing out an alarm?
Should I be afraid to be castigated, and branded, and accused of agendas, lose people's respect (and perhaps even their admiration), for speaking up? That would be like me emulating Peter before the **** crowed thrice, wouldn't I?

My biggest fear in posting this is to put a stumbling block for those who already believe. But I strongly feel that I have to at least respond.

I do hope no one will mistakenly see my response on the controversial use of Mary as a reflection against the Christian faith.

Vigilance is important. Jesus drummed that into His disciples, and into us.
Some of our religious leaders from ancient past and present - with good intentions in their hearts - could just as easily go overboard and end up adding to, and twisting the Scriptures.

What we preach, what we practice should never ever contradict with anything that's been Written.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:

I just explained the difference. Scroll back.

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All I saw was that you said it was not the same. I didn't see why it's not the same.

Asking Mary to pray for you it's no different than asking mom to pray for you.

It isn't praying to Mary it's asking her to pray for us. Asking someone to pray for us isn't the same as worshipping that person.

I take it this is a issue you have with Catholics.

In no prayer do Catholics worship Mary.
Hail Mary full of grace the lord it's with you.
That isn't saying Mary you are the almighty. It's saying the almighty it's with her.
Blessed are you among women.
God Obviously thought so, he chose her to bear his flesh incarnation. Still not worshipping.

And blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.
This is really obvious, she bore the lord. Obviously the fruit of her womb is blessed.

Holy Mary mother of God. Mary was Jesus's mother. If you are Christian than you believe Jesus is both God and man. If you don't believe Jesus is God (the son) than I really don't know how you are Christian.

Pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death.

How is this praying to Mary? Asking her to pray to Jesus for us isn't any different than asking facebook friends to pray for us.

I would love to hear how it's different. The only difference I can see really is that Mary had Jesus the lord in her womb and your facebook friends didn't.

Other wise how is it different please explain?

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Peter Grimm, Claxx and Ray, I'm not ignoring your posts....but I've got to go. Will continue.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:

That hymn Immaculate Concepcion was sang on Wenesday's novena. Btw, were you ever a Catholic? I grew up as one thus everything we did was ingrained in memory.

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I am Catholic I've been Catholic for close to 30 years, I've studied Catholicism semi-extensively for over a decade now. If you were Catholic as you say you were then you would know not to take anything at face value unless it's actual Church teachings. One of my priests growing up called for women to be allowed into the priesthood in his homilies. That's against Church teaching. So enough with blaming the Church for things she doesn't even preach, if you can find in the Catechism any place where it says that we should worship Mary or the Saints then you might have something but as of right now you haven't addressed any of the substantial points I've made and keep making excuses to support what you believe to be true about the Church.

So my challenge to you if you actually do believe the Church to be at fault and not inline with the bible she put together, is to find in actual Church teaching anything at odds with the bible regarding prayer.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

CLAX1911 said:

All I saw was that you said it was not the same. I didn't see why it's not the same.

Asking Mary to pray for you it's no different than asking mom to pray for you.

It isn't praying to Mary it's asking her to pray for us. Asking someone to pray for us isn't the same as worshipping that person.

I take it this is a issue you have with Catholics.

In no prayer do Catholics worship Mary.
Hail Mary full of grace the lord it's with you.
That isn't saying Mary you are the almighty. It's saying the almighty it's with her.
Blessed are you among women.
God Obviously thought so, he chose her to bear his flesh incarnation. Still not worshipping.

And blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.
This is really obvious, she bore the lord. Obviously the fruit of her womb is blessed.

Holy Mary mother of God. Mary was Jesus's mother. If you are Christian than you believe Jesus is both God and man. If you don't believe Jesus is God (the son) than I really don't know how you are Christian.

Pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death.

How is this praying to Mary? Asking her to pray to Jesus for us isn't any different than asking facebook friends to pray for us.

I would love to hear how it's different. The only difference I can see really is that Mary had Jesus the lord in her womb and your facebook friends didn't.

Other wise how is it different please explain?

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You'll have to scroll back and read all my posts then. It's been explicitly explained.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Monserrat said:

I am Catholic I've been Catholic for close to 30 years, I've studied Catholicism semi-extensively for over a decade now. If you were Catholic as you say you were then you would know not to take anything at face value unless it's actual Church teachings. One of my priests growing up called for women to be allowed into the priesthood in his homilies. That's against Church teaching. So enough with blaming the Church for things she doesn't even preach, if you can find in the Catechism any place where it says that we should worship Mary or the Saints then you might have something but as of right now you haven't addressed any of the substantial points I've made and keep making excuses to support what you believe to be true about the Church.

So my challenge to you if you actually do believe the Church to be at fault and not inline with the bible she put together, is to find in actual Church teaching anything at odds with the bible regarding prayer.

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The issue is not about prayers. The issue is about the praying to Mary ( and the saints) which is in conflict with the First Commandment and several teachings of Jesus Christ.

Why is there such a contentious conflict in the first place? It's even one of the many causes why the Church split up.

All God-inspired teachings flows smoothly and consistently. God is immutable. There are no revisions in the New Testament and there never will be. God does not make any errors.

Show me a Biblical message that supports the idea that Mary is equal to Jesus, and that she's BEEN GIVEN by GOD - not men - by GOD, the same capacity/authority to intercede for men.

NONE!

Because that would make Jesus un-reliable, to say the least.

Do you understand the full implication of that, with an un-reliable Jesus who could've messed up His own teachings?

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Peter Grimm said:

Once upon a time, there was only the Catholic Church. The only reason any protestant churches even exist today is because the king of England wanted to divorce his wife, so he broke away and formed his own church.

Exodus 20:14 "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

"And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." —Mark 1:1-12

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First of all, you're totally wrong on how the Protestant Churches came to be. It didn't start with the King of England!

Protestantism is a major branch of Christianity. Protestants deny the universal authority of the Pope and affirm the Reformation principles of justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth. The term may also be used more broadly to mean Christianity outside of an Orthodox or Catholic church.[1]

The Protestant movement has its origins in Germany and is popularly considered to have begun in 1517 when Martin Luther published The Ninety-Five Theses as a reaction against medieval doctrines and practices, especially with regard to salvation, justification, and ecclesiology. The doctrines of the over 33,000 Protestant denominations vary, but most include justification by grace through faith alone, known as Sola Gratia and Sola Fide respectively, the priesthood of all believers, and the Bible as the supreme authority in matters of faith and morals, known as Sola Scriptura, Latin for "by scripture alone".
In the 16th century, the followers of Martin Luther established the evangelical (Lutheran) churches of Germany and Scandinavia. Reformed churches in Hungary, Scotland, Switzerland and France were established by other reformers such as John Calvin, Huldrych Zwingli, and John Knox. The Church of England declared independence from papal authority in 1534, and was influenced by some Reformation principles, notably during the reign of Edward VI.

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Protestantism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the protestant church was born out of sin.... it was born out of adultery. Sin is of the devil. How can something born of the devil ever turn out to be good? How can something that divides God's church be good?

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I hope you never use that in a serious debate because that's a poor argument....a much bigger pie will most certainly land on your face. Think of all the historical atrocities done in the name of Roman Catholicism.
And I don't want to get into that argument - it's not the Church, but by atrocities done by men.
For how can such atrocities that even seem to border on lunacy - that again, are in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus - be God-inspired?

And that's the point being made here. It's not the Church - and by that I mean the Church established by Jesus Christ - but man-made doctrines that are being added to the Scriptures of God.

Anyway, Catholics and Protestants - we've all come from the same cloth.

The issue here is not about the Catholic Church, but about the practice of praying to Mary.
Please read the OP so you'll understand why this thread was created.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Ray410 said:

I by no means would profess to be a Biblical scholar as some here obviously are, but this story would seem to create a contradiction with the OP which has me confused:

Vatican declares healing of Colorado Springs boy a miracle after prayers to German nun - The Denver Post

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That's a good point.

But then again, are we sure the miracle came from God?

If something causes conflict with the Scriptures, we can almost be certain that it's there for a reason. We've all been warned about the deceit of Satan. He can use anyone or anything. He even used Peter at one time.

His agenda is to distract us, sow the seeds of doubt, and erode our faith in God.
If God says Satan is real - he is real. And if God repeatedly warned us about him, I guess we better take Satan seriously.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Ironically, Nota Bene mentioned the word, distraction.



Matt 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.


Luke 10
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”



Why not spend our time praying to God instead?

The bowing down, the psalms and singing of hymns, the supplications - all symbols of acknowledging humble acceptance of our reliance on Him - should all be directed to God alone.

HE KNOWS what we want! He doesn't have to be told - and yet He required prayers from us!

It's all about the meaning and the symbolism behind the prayer that counts!
Our humble declaration of utmost dependence on Him.
God, alone.

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:

You'll have to scroll back and read all my posts then. It's been explicitly explained.

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What post number was it explained in?

Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

CLAX1911 said:

What post number was it explained in?

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I can't remember off-hand. You should read all my posts anyway, that way you'll fully understand where I'm coming from.