Over A Quarter of Americans Believe That The Jews Killed Jesus

Gathomas88 said:

First off, if we're speaking historically here, no one has been especially fond of the Jews. They've been persecuted by everyone from Roman pagans to Communist atheists. Trying to blame the Gospels for anti-Semitism is simply nonsense.

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Then what is Christianity for if not just another religious conduit for hatred?

Gathomas88 said:

Frankly, I'm still wondering what any of this has do with the OP. The purpose of this thread was not to provide misanthropes a stomping ground in which to rant about all of the imagined slights they happen to hold against Christianity.

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Oh yes. Poor you. You've created a thread to bash a Jewish organization.

If only we "misanthropes" were more tolerant of your distrust and antipathies towards a historically persecuted religious minority.

brothern said:

Oh yes. Poor you. You've created a thread to bash a Jewish organization. If only we "misanthropes" were more tolerant of your distaste and antipathies towards religious minorities!

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Yes, I called out an obscenely wealthy and powerful agenda driven organization which goes out of its way to try and aggressively dictate the beliefs of other people in a unilateral and overwhelmingly authoritarian fashion for trying to ridiculously skew figures in order to make it appear like "anti-Semitism" among Christians is a bigger problem than it actually is. I fail to see the problem.

I'm sorry, but the "woe is me, Jews are being persecuted by ebil Christians" routine is convincing exactly no one; especially not when being put forward by pissants like the ADL.

Make no mistake. The root of my problem with the ADL has nothing to do with the organization's religion, but rather its tactics. Overly sensitive P.C. watchdogs are grating under any circumstances. Those that try to impose their inane agendas on society at large through the use of propaganda, bully-boy tactics, and draconian legislation are especially so.

As a matter of fact, I'm not an especially great fan of the Catholic ADL either.

PW4000 said:

1) My concern would be why the question was asked in 2013, in the first place.
2) It is crystal clear that God had role in the death of Jesus Christ, by allowing it to take place.

So, dropping mere "blame" about the death of Christ, is rather moot, as it is not only His death, but His burial AND full body resurrection that is the relevant concern for all of humanity - both past and present.

What people should really be concerned about in the Western world is both how and when the False Church was formed out of a crumbling Roman Empire and how that False Church remains in such power, authority and control over so much of Western society keystone structures today, such as its: Political Systems, Legal Systems, Educational Systems, Economic Systems, etc.

If God wanted to pull His Son down from the cross, heal all of His wounds before His feet hit the ground and causes all of humanity to believe that He was indeed Lord of all, then He could have very well done that. But, that was not God's plan nor His intent. Things worked out the way God saw fit, regardless of who gets or fails to get the credit for who killed Jesus.

Focus on the history of the Holy Roman Church and its origins to better understand just how sick and demented mankind has become. True Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism - nothing, whatsoever. Christianity, is about a relationship with Jesus. Catholicism, is about perpetuating the World System. "Light up the darkness."

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In #2 you make the point that all of Christianity including Catholics must and do agree on.

The Romans at that place and time physically tortured and then crucified Christ and did so prompted by the calls for punishment by the Jewish community at that place and time. But every Christian must hold that Christ as God personified willingly submitted Himself to that suffering and crucifixion and in so doing provided every person with the path to salvation and that path is open to anyone.

And on your last sentence I would leave you with one of my favorite quotes

There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church.

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brothern said:

Then what is Christianity for if not just another religious conduit for hatred?

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A religion that did and does a great deal of good. Just because you hate Christianity doesn't mean your assessment of it is true. It's actually quite false.

Oh yes. Poor you. You've created a thread to bash a Jewish organization.

If only we "misanthropes" were more tolerant of your distrust and antipathies towards a historically persecuted religious minority.

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Just because it's a jewish organization doesn't mean it gets a free pass when it spills out a bunch of BS into the public forum.

Actually it was God that instigated Jesus' death, to prove his love for Mankind.

brothern said:

You're very confused. The phenomenon is called the the "Jewish deicide." The Gospels of Matthew and John (the worst) both have strong veins of antisemetism running through out them, and have influenced many centuries of Christian violence against Jews.

The worst is the one mentioned by Reza Aslan, Matthew 27:24-25 - aka the Blood curse - "When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. 'I am innocent of this man’s blood,' he said. 'It is your responsibility!' All the people answered, 'His blood is on us and on our children!'"

It wasn't until the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965) that Pope Paul VI issued a mea culpa-esk declaration called the "Nostra Aetate."

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I'm not even Christian and I don't see that quote as anti-Semitic. It could just as easily be interpreted as the crowd representing all humanity taking responsibility in their blood lust.

Rainman05 said:

Depends what you mean by killing.

It was the jews who sentenced him to die and the romans who carried out that demand.

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Now the romans didn't carry out that command because they were doing the jews' bidding, but because Pontius Pilatus didn't want a revolt and the jewish religious and state leaders threatened a revolt similar to the macabeean revolt a few years back should Pontius not have him executed.






Does that mean the jews are responsible for killing Jesus? Sure.
Does this mean that we need to hate the jews? No. After all, Jesus forgave all those who wronged him + he died for the sins of mankind.
But of course, anyone who ever had anything to do with Jesus is long dead. Gone. And because we don't live in a barbaric society, even if you hold anyone responsible, guilt is not a collective, trans-temporal thing. It lives and dies with those who carry that guilt.

Ofc, the ADL has to do something. It can't otherwise justify the money they get. Best thing to do is to ignore bull**** organizations like this and a lot of other ones who all they do is bait. Bait bait bait... race-baiting, hate-mongering, fear-mongering, etc.

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According to those who worship God He is omnipotent and nothing happens without His permission.

Therefore God is responsible for the death of Jesus because He could have prevented it from happening, but chose not to.

Gathomas88 said:

I wouldn't say that anyone really is "mad" about it any more. There might be a few hatemongering odd balls here and there who want to stir up trouble. However, by and large, I imagine most Christians' view of the Jewish people is rather apathetic.

The Pharisees were responsible for a rather grievous crime and travesty of justice against Christ and his followers, and that should be recognized. However, that was more than two thousand years ago. It doesn't bear any relevance to today.



Insular minorities in foreign lands have pretty much always tended to draw a lot of negative attention from local populations. It sucks, but it's not really something that happens in the current day and age either.

In the modern Western World, Jews are, if anything, disproportionately represented in positions of power and influence.

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This is a problematical comment .

nota bene said:

I've never heard anybody express the opinion that the Jews killed Jesus, and while it makes for a nice little inflammatory thread, it's difficult to get worked up about this.

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It might be difficult for you but for others it's pretty easy.

Gathomas88 said:

First off, if we're speaking historically here, no one has been especially fond of the Jews. They've been persecuted by everyone from Roman pagans to Communist atheists. Trying to blame the Gospels for anti-Semitism is simply nonsense.

Secondly, it was never Church doctrine that "all Jews" were to blame for the death of Christ. That was a folk teaching and popular misconception at best.

This isn't to say that the Jewish religious and political hierarchy in Jerusalem didn't, in fact, play a major, and possibly even central, role in bringing about Christ's death. The fact that they did is more or less undeniable if one goes by the scriptures. However, that does not imply guilt on the part of the whole race.

Such an idea frankly wouldn't even make sense. Christ was a Jew, and so were all of his Apostles.



Do tell. This ought to be absolutely classic. :roll:

Frankly, I'm still wondering what any of this has do with the OP.

The purpose of this thread was not to provide misanthropes a stomping ground in which to rant about all of the imagined slights they happen to hold against Christianity.

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True, but some people will use every chance that they find to expose others to their ideas.

shrubnose said:

According to those who worship God He is omnipotent and nothing happens without His permission.

Therefore God is responsible for the death of Jesus because He could have prevented it from happening, but chose not to.

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Jesus chose not to.

That's the whole point.

shrubnose said:

This is a problematical comment .

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It does have a familiar ring to it

shrubnose said:

This is a problematical comment .

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It's true. :shrug:

Jews make up only about 1-2% of the overall US population, but a Hell of a lot more than 1-2% of the entertainment, finance, and other industries happens to be Jewish. On a simple mathematical basis, it is undeniable that they are overrepresented in positions within our society which tend to grant large degrees of wealth and influence.

I don't have a problem with that fact. I think it's actually kind of impressive. They're doing a lot better than most other ethnic minorities in the United States.

However, it does make it kind of silly for the ADL to try and paint American Jews as being some sort of oppressed minority who is in imminent danger of discrimination, as the OP implied. The sad truth of the matter is that Jews are far more likely to be on the offensive against someone else, these days, than they are to be helpless victims.

shrubnose said:

True, but some people will use every chance that they find to expose others to their ideas.

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True. I was just observing how the one-note "Christianity and religion are bad, mmkay?'" posters can get to be a bit tiresome after a while.

shrubnose said:

According to those who worship God He is omnipotent and nothing happens without His permission.

Therefore God is responsible for the death of Jesus because He could have prevented it from happening, but chose not to.

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God could change a lot of things, but then you would be living in a world where free will does not exist.

Logicman said:

God could change a lot of things, but then you would be living in a world where free will does not exist.

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I'm not trying to start an argument but quite a few people on this planet and on this website claim that we're living in that world right now.

Gathomas88 said:

It's true. :shrug:

Jews make up only about 1-2% of the overall US population, but a Hell of a lot more than 1-2% of the entertainment, finance, and other industries happens to be Jewish. On a simple mathematical basis, it is undeniable that they are overrepresented in positions within our society which tend to grant large degrees of wealth and influence.

I don't have a problem with that fact. I think it's actually kind of impressive. They're doing a lot better than most other ethnic minorities in the United States.

However, it does make it kind of silly for the ADL to try and paint American Jews as being some sort of oppressed minority who is in imminent danger of discrimination, as the OP implied. The sad truth of the matter is that Jews are far more likely to be on the offensive against someone else, these days, than they are to be helpless victims.

True. I was just observing how the one-note "Christianity and religion are bad, mmkay?'" posters can get to be a bit tiresome after a while.

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I have been guilty of that, but lately I've been trying to cool it.

Not all, but some religious people have done and are doing a lot of good things for various reasons.

shrubnose said:

I'm not trying to start an argument but quite a few people on this planet and on this website claim that we're living in that world right now.

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To be fair, man's free will is occasionally tempered by God deciding to enter the fray when men and nations get too far out of line, though that is rare.

brothern said:

You're very confused. The phenomenon is called the the "Jewish deicide." The Gospels of Matthew and John (the worst) both have strong veins of antisemetism running through out them, and have influenced many centuries of Christian violence against Jews.

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You err because you don't see the intra-Jewish tensions.

Is the New Testament anti-semitic?

First, from the Old Testament:

In the most sacred work of Judaism, the Torah, we find numerous pronunciations by God and Moses referring to the Israelites as being “stiff-necked” and “rebellious.”

The Lord and Moses were not alone. Isaiah Chapter 1 likens the Israelites to “Sodomites” and a “brood of evildoers,” whose “hands are full of blood.” Jeremiah Chapter 2 refers to them as “a wild donkey in heat.” Other prophets call them “adulteresses” and liken their behavior to prostitutes. So vivid were the descriptions of the abominations of the Israelites that the Bible records God himself bringing judgment upon judgment upon them, so that even their children were dashed against the rocks. But do you ever hear of anyone calling the Old Testament authors “anti-Semitic”? Never, and the reason why was because those issues were clearly understood to be intra-Jewish tensions written about by the Jews themselves.

Fast-forward to the New Testament:

The New Testament should be viewed in the same light. Jesus was a Jew. His disciples were all Jews, and the majority of the New Testament authors were also Jewish. Did they really hate their own race of people, or can it reasonably be said that, like the Old Testament, the tensions in the New Testament are just simply more of the same intra-Jewish rivalries like we saw before? I think the evidence is clearly with the latter.

Many cite the Gospel of John specifically as being anti-Semitic. Yet when the term “Jews” is used in a pejorative sense in John’s Gospel it is never directed toward the general populace, but towards the corrupt scribes, God-blasphemers, and ungodly Pharisees instead. In fact, contrary to being anti-Semitic, The Gospel of John presents the Israelites in a very positive light. From John Chapter 1 we read: “When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, ‘Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false.’”

Is the New Testament Anti-Semitic? « The Righter Report

Ben K. said:

I'm not even Christian and I don't see that quote as anti-Semitic. It could just as easily be interpreted as the crowd representing all humanity taking responsibility in their blood lust.

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Unfortunately it has only been interpreted in a nonviolent way for about a half-century now. Thankfully even several Popes have taken the Church's history to task.

Even still, as the ADL poll shows, many Christian still believe that all Jews are responsible for Christ's death:

Fisher said:

The "they killed Jesus" haters and the "they took Arab land" haters pale in comparison to the "They are ruthless, wealth-hording banksters" haters.

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They're all bad, but since some of the "they took Arab land" haters launch rockets into Israeli civilian areas, they get my vote as the worst.

PW4000 said:

True Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism - nothing, whatsoever. Christianity, is about a relationship with Jesus. Catholicism, is about perpetuating the World System. "Light up the darkness."

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There is some truth that organized religion has lost its way in some regards, but without an organized and, I hate to say it, somewhat powerful organization, the message would have been lost sometime over the past two millenia.

If you think there's some level of malevolence to organized religion, at least acknowledge it has been a necessary evil

Gathomas88 said:

The ADL is well known for using its innumerable political connections and immense wealth to shut down organizations that believe things it doesn't happen to agree with.
The fact that such an "attack dog" organization deliberately aimed at limiting public discourse would even exist in the first place, let alone do so completely free of any sort of public oversight or administrative checks and balances, is more than disturbing enough on its own. That they would now apparently set their sights on fundamentally altering the teachings of religions that they dislike is nothing short of overtly frightening.
They are little more than fascistic bullies; a bunt instrument used by the political Left in this country to force the cultural mainstream to tow whatever line they, and they alone, determine to be most appropriate.

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Whatever the ADL is, it was borne of a history of brutality and persecution directed toward Jews.
Almost every period in history has, at the very minimum, Jewish persecution. Often even worse than just persecution.
We just think of the Holocaust as a bad time, but in the years leading up to that they were driven from their villages all over Europe, and not even in an organized manner, but by a universal antipathy felt by random nations.

In the early thirties, Jewish areas of Russia actually welcomed a German presence because the Russians had treated them so badly. We see where that went.
Where do people with this kind of history turn? Only one place - themselves. It's all they have.
Even the US, their greatest, possibly only, ally in the world is only as good as the whims of the president (as we're seeing now).

So their big victory, the founding of Israel in 1948, makes them a tiny nation surrounded by fanatical and well armed enemies that want them dead. Woo-hoo!

So is the ADL a paranoid, well financed, well connected attack dog? God I hope so.

Gathomas88 said:

I was also pointing out the irony of such a powerful and radically intolerant organization as the Anti-Defamation League acting like Jews are some sort of vulnerable minority which often experiences prejudice in modern culture.

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I'd say you've just summed up the history of the last three thousand years or so.

Gathomas88 said:

The simple fact of the matter is that the ADL is not only pissing and moaning over matters which are ultimately irrelevant, but actively trying to force its views on the rest of civil society in the process as well. It is an organization full of hypocritically self-righteous bullies with an ideological agenda to push, nothing more.

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I don't know about the "actively forcing" part but there's a certain irony in you bringing up "civil society".

There is nothing inherently evil about German or Russian people. I'm not talking about their leaders, there can always be evil individuals, but people themselves.
How is it that "civil society" can be turned on its head so seemingly effortlessly? I don't know the answer, but in this past century, "civil societies" in Germany, Russia, Poland, the eastern block, etc. became decidedly uncivil toward Jews. How? Why?

Even now Israel is surrounded by fanatics whose ultimate goal goes beyond "uncivil".

If you believe "those things that have happened to Jews throughout history will NEVER happen again", that's your prerogative.
But it's a chance THEY can't take.


And what pain are they causing you? Having to listen to their opinions?
Gosh! How uncivil.

I have always found it odd how the notion of Jews killing a fellow Jew would provide some of the basis for non Jews antipathy towards Jews.

As far as antisemitism is concerned, this age old hatred is really predicated more on a numbers game than anything else. Put 10 green people in a room with 90 blue people, and the blue people will distrust the green people, the differences will be magnified in the hearts and minds of both groups, antipathies will develop and the blue people will oppress the green people. It's just how people are as they develop a group identity and their ego extends to their entire group. Since post-diaspora Jews were always living in small enclaves within greater host communities, OF COURSE they were treated with suspicion and prejudice. They were always a small minority.

To pick up on one of Brooks points above, the Arab states, especially, have used their enormous numerical advantage and influence from their oil wealth to persecute Jews through vast propaganda networks and especially the United Nations. It is a battle of competing memes, really, as few people are intelligent enough to recognize an appeal to popularity. The entire Jewish state has been singled out for abuse, and thoughtless and hateful individuals just go with it. This is especially true of the illiberal portion of the hard left as hatred of Jews has become so de Rigueur as to almost define an entire segment of the political body. You lose your cred if you don't join the chorus of hatred.

In any case, I realize this is the religion forum, but it is really less a case of religion and more a case of mindlessness, stupidity and political identity. People don't need a reason to hate. They simply hate what is not part of their group. .