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Paul Harvey, "If I were the Devil."

God called Paul to the ministry, specifically to take and preach the gospel to the Gentiles; Paul had a right, just as a soldier, a vineyard owner, or a shepherd (vs 7) has a right to be compensated for the services they perform, and that from those who benefit from such services. The soldier has a right to be paid by his commander, the vineyard owner to reap of the produce of the vine, and the shepherd of the milk of the flock.

Paul had a right to expect those to whom he preached the gospel to pay him for his preaching. NOWHERE; repeat NOWHERE does the Bible say everyone has a right to this. Indeed, the expectation was that EVERYONE who was able to provide for themselves... provide for themselves and thus not be a burden to the church. Paul went so far in this admonition to fend for himself as well - to work over and above his work of the ministry - to do double duty as it were so he wouldn't be a burden to the church in any way.

It is a warped interpretation of Scripture, not to mention Christian love and charity to assert we all have some sort of an innate right to each other's produce.

Do you know what "charity" means? it's not philanthropy, it's agape.

in vrs 3 and 4 it mentions the others who had a right to it ... but it was the traveling oversears ... but a right to what? the congregation funds, it doesn't mention the local bishops or elders, it's people who travel and then rely on hospitality, and who had a right to the congregation funds? We see in Acts how the thing was set up .... Pauls letters HAS to be taken in the context of how the first century church was set up.

We also know what Jesus commanded ... "You recieved without patment... give withot payment." That was Jesus' command ... and I don't think the apostles wen't againts that command.
 
Do you know what "charity" means? it's not philanthropy, it's agape.
Do you know what "agape" means? It's Christian love, the sacrificial type of love Jesus embodies towards us, the type of love He demonstrated on the cross; it's differentiated from other types of love in the Greek, namely "eros" (sexual love), "phileo" (brotherly love), and "storge" (familial love).

in vrs 3 and 4 it mentions the others who had a right to it ... but it was the traveling oversears ... but a right to what? the congregation funds, it doesn't mention the local bishops or elders, it's people who travel and then rely on hospitality, and who had a right to the congregation funds? We see in Acts how the thing was set up .... Pauls letters HAS to be taken in the context of how the first century church was set up.
If context is critical (and I agree it is), then the TEXT is even more so. And nowhere in the text, this passage or elsewhere, does Paul or any other apostle, or any other writer of the New Testament mention any such right - let alone a right to "the congregation funds." It's not there; neither can it be logically or reasonably inferred to be there. It's something your indoctrination has ADDED to the text, ADDED to make it say something it doesn't say.

Paul is talking about his right as a minister to expect compensation for his ministerial services - i.e. to be paid by those to whom he has ministered. He cites as an example (see vs. 13f) those who served in the temple, having a right to their "share of the altar," that is, to be fed from a portion of the foods sacrificed there. This was something God instructed the Israelites w/r to those performing as priests. Paul took that same example and applies it to those who "preach the gospel" (referring to himself and others, e.g. Barnabas set aside by The Lord for that purpose) - verse 14 "So also The Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel." Moreover, while Paul cites this "right" (the Greek word, 'ezousian' actually means "authority"), the right just mentioned, Paul VOLUNTARILY waived the right for the sake of those to whom he ministered, lest he be in any way a cause for their stumbling (cf chapter 8).

We also know what Jesus commanded ... "You recieved without patment... give withot payment." That was Jesus' command ... and I don't think the apostles wen't againts that command.
"Freely you received, freely give" is a reference to Matthew 10:8 (cf verses 5 - 10) where Jesus sent His disciples to preach the gospel to the house of Israel. He gave them power to "heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give" - meaning to use their powers to heal, resurrect, cleanse, cast out... Furthermore, he adds this, which contextually corroborates what I said above: "9 Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, 10 or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support."

Now, having said that, it's also clear that EVERYONE who has ANYTHING has it because they [ultimately] received it from The Lord too. Cf. I Cor 3:18 - 4:16 (esp. 4:7), which Paul uses to address those who think themselves in any ways "wise in this age" (3:18), not to think more highly of themselves than they ought, exhorting them to "be imitators of me [Paul]" (4:16).

Christians are throughout the NT commanded to "love one another." Our love for one another is in fact PART of the gospel message inasmuch as it is by our love for one another that we will be recognized by the world as His disciples (Jn 13:35).

The sense of "community" and communal love for one another comes directly from Jesus' commands that we love one another. Paul is clear that such love is to be BOTH sacrificial AND sensitive to each other's weaknesses, that we are not to use our liberty in Christ in such a manner as to cause anyone to stumble (cf the above). This is agape love, Christ's love, and the reason Paul refused compensation for his ministry. He could work to pay his way, and did, holding down two jobs rather than just the one he'd received from The Lord. THAT was Paul's example to the church.

While Christians in need might legitimately anticipate their fellow Christians will provide for them in their time of need, because Christians who have the means to alleviate such needs are commanded to do so (Jesus' love commands it), Paul, and even Jesus are firm in their teaching that no Christian should at any time EXPECT such help, that is to presumptuously TAKE ADVANTAGE of this Christian love, whether by laziness and idleness (cf 2 Thess 3), or by arrogance, imagining it is somehow their "right."

Similarly, neither should anyone teach such presumptive arrogance as those who preach entitlements do these days.
 
Ugh, politics and religion, the worst combo.

What I find frustrating about these debates and their ideologues is that people seem so sure that they have identified the evils of the world. I think they are gravely overconfident. Too many people make the incorrect assumption that evil fits into a nice little identifiable box, with obvious flaws that do-gooders can take advantage of and defeat. Do us all a favor and stop watching so much hollywood, where the villains are spoonfed to the audience? Real life doesn't work that way.

The reality is that evil is insidious, clever, and changes its form constantly. I think evil forces have done such a number on the United States that the activism has turned good people against other good people, thinking they are the enemy.

The #1 thing that Christians like Harvey need to guard against is righteousness. If you really believe that evil incarnate exists in this world then that requires vigilance, humility, and humbleness... otherwise it will play you like an instrument and use all of your psychological vices to turn you against your allies.

This is not my experience at all; I haven't seen good people turn against other good people, thinking they're the enemy. I agree that one must be vigilant and humble, but you seem to be suggesting internecine warfare. I don't see that.

I do see a difference, though, between helping someone who is genuinely in need and enabling someone who chooses not to help himself--someone who chooses not to work, for example. And I do know people who have made that choice.
 
Do you know what "agape" means? It's Christian love, the sacrificial type of love Jesus embodies towards us, the type of love He demonstrated on the cross; it's differentiated from other types of love in the Greek, namely "eros" (sexual love), "phileo" (brotherly love), and "storge" (familial love).

Yes I do know what it is, it (charity) is an attitude based on Principle, it's principial love, NOT acts of philanthropy

If context is critical (and I agree it is), then the TEXT is even more so. And nowhere in the text, this passage or elsewhere, does Paul or any other apostle, or any other writer of the New Testament mention any such right - let alone a right to "the congregation funds." It's not there; neither can it be logically or reasonably inferred to be there. It's something your indoctrination has ADDED to the text, ADDED to make it say something it doesn't say.

Paul is talking about his right as a minister to expect compensation for his ministerial services - i.e. to be paid by those to whom he has ministered. He cites as an example (see vs. 13f) those who served in the temple, having a right to their "share of the altar," that is, to be fed from a portion of the foods sacrificed there. This was something God instructed the Israelites w/r to those performing as priests. Paul took that same example and applies it to those who "preach the gospel" (referring to himself and others, e.g. Barnabas set aside by The Lord for that purpose) - verse 14 "So also The Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel." Moreover, while Paul cites this "right" (the Greek word, 'ezousian' actually means "authority"), the right just mentioned, Paul VOLUNTARILY waived the right for the sake of those to whom he ministered, lest he be in any way a cause for their stumbling (cf chapter 8).

Yes, the share of the alter was NOT payment .... it was the priests having access to some of the food.

The context is all over the place, acts 2 and 4, 5 and 6, giving us the institutional framework, and discussions in other letters about problems with the system that came up, like in thesselonians and timothy about people abusing it, and some regulations that we're needed, if you have the context of Acts 2 and 4, it ALL fits together, if you say it's payment, then you can't take the NT all together, then you're saying it contradicts itself.

"Freely you received, freely give" is a reference to Matthew 10:8 (cf verses 5 - 10) where Jesus sent His disciples to preach the gospel to the house of Israel. He gave them power to "heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give" - meaning to use their powers to heal, resurrect, cleanse, cast out... Furthermore, he adds this, which contextually corroborates what I said above: "9 Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, 10 or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support."

Now, having said that, it's also clear that EVERYONE who has ANYTHING has it because they [ultimately] received it from The Lord too. Cf. I Cor 3:18 - 4:16 (esp. 4:7), which Paul uses to address those who think themselves in any ways "wise in this age" (3:18), not to think more highly of themselves than they ought, exhorting them to "be imitators of me [Paul]" (4:16).

Christians are throughout the NT commanded to "love one another." Our love for one another is in fact PART of the gospel message inasmuch as it is by our love for one another that we will be recognized by the world as His disciples (Jn 13:35).

The sense of "community" and communal love for one another comes directly from Jesus' commands that we love one another. Paul is clear that such love is to be BOTH sacrificial AND sensitive to each other's weaknesses, that we are not to use our liberty in Christ in such a manner as to cause anyone to stumble (cf the above). This is agape love, Christ's love, and the reason Paul refused compensation for his ministry. He could work to pay his way, and did, holding down two jobs rather than just the one he'd received from The Lord. THAT was Paul's example to the church.

While Christians in need might legitimately anticipate their fellow Christians will provide for them in their time of need, because Christians who have the means to alleviate such needs are commanded to do so (Jesus' love commands it), Paul, and even Jesus are firm in their teaching that no Christian should at any time EXPECT such help, that is to presumptuously TAKE ADVANTAGE of this Christian love, whether by laziness and idleness (cf 2 Thess 3), or by arrogance, imagining it is somehow their "right."

Similarly, neither should anyone teach such presumptive arrogance as those who preach entitlements do these days.

All of those healings and so on we're part of the preaching at that time ... but he applies "give freely" to all aspects of the preaching.
the worker being worthy of his support means (as the scripture says) to rely on the hospitality of the people ... NOT to get payment or to charge for preaching.

The "getting everything from God" means that everything ... ultimately ... is from God, so we shouldn't boast about our talents or whatever, it doesn't mean that God dictates wealth distribution WHICH IS PROVEN by the fact that God often condemns unequal wealth distribution ... often.

The communalism is based on love, absolutely, but that communality is not only a feeling it results in REAL tangable outcomes, i.e. God's Justice (misphat), in the actual economic commune of the Church, is a christian manifestation of God's call for justice in the OT mosaic law and in the prophets, it's the SAME principle.

All those personal admonitions to not be lazy and not take advantage, PRESUPPOSE the christian communal system described in acts.

As far as payment, there is no evidence that preachers lot "literally" paid, if you want to hold to sola scriptura and tota scriptura it would be EXACTLY what Jesus commanded, give free, recieve free, but rely on the hospitality of the people ... something traveling bishops would HAVE to do.
 
< snip >
If I were the Devil, I'd convince people that gays are below contempt.
...which is precisely what the devil does; rather than tell the truth - which is that it's the behavior, not the person that is contemptible, he convinces them of exactly the opposite.
 
Yes I do know what it is, it (charity) is an attitude based on Principle, it's principial love, NOT acts of philanthropy

Yes, the share of the alter was NOT payment .... it was the priests having access to some of the food.

The context is all over the place, acts 2 and 4, 5 and 6, giving us the institutional framework, and discussions in other letters about problems with the system that came up, like in thesselonians and timothy about people abusing it, and some regulations that we're needed, if you have the context of Acts 2 and 4, it ALL fits together, if you say it's payment, then you can't take the NT all together, then you're saying it contradicts itself.


All of those healings and so on we're part of the preaching at that time ... but he applies "give freely" to all aspects of the preaching.
the worker being worthy of his support means (as the scripture says) to rely on the hospitality of the people ... NOT to get payment or to charge for preaching.

The "getting everything from God" means that everything ... ultimately ... is from God, so we shouldn't boast about our talents or whatever, it doesn't mean that God dictates wealth distribution WHICH IS PROVEN by the fact that God often condemns unequal wealth distribution ... often.

The communalism is based on love, absolutely, but that communality is not only a feeling it results in REAL tangable outcomes, i.e. God's Justice (misphat), in the actual economic commune of the Church, is a christian manifestation of God's call for justice in the OT mosaic law and in the prophets, it's the SAME principle.

All those personal admonitions to not be lazy and not take advantage, PRESUPPOSE the christian communal system described in acts.

As far as payment, there is no evidence that preachers lot "literally" paid, if you want to hold to sola scriptura and tota scriptura it would be EXACTLY what Jesus commanded, give free, recieve free, but rely on the hospitality of the people ... something traveling bishops would HAVE to do.
< heavy sigh >
 
...which is precisely what the devil does; rather than tell the truth - which is that it's the behavior, not the person that is contemptible, he convinces them of exactly the opposite.

Yeah, like televangelists preaching about assassinating foreign leaders and how wonderful money it, and how lazy the poor are. I can't think of a better guise for the devil than Blood Diamond Pat Robertson.
 
Yeah, like televangelists preaching about assassinating foreign leaders and how wonderful money it, and how lazy the poor are. I can't think of a better guise for the devil than Blood Diamond Pat Robertson.
To quote a head I know - "What in the Sam Hill are you talking about?" :thinking
 
I always find it odd how anyone thinks that those who follow god, and are thus opponents of the devil who hate him, could possibly be considered a credible source for his goals and methods. Does anyone ever accurately portray their enemies? Consider all of the exaggerations that partisan people on this very forum lob at each other. It seems very silly to think that anyone but the devil would know what he wants or how he intends to go about doing that.
 
I always find it odd how anyone thinks that those who follow god, and are thus opponents of the devil who hate him, could possibly be considered a credible source for his goals and methods. Does anyone ever accurately portray their enemies? Consider all of the exaggerations that partisan people on this very forum lob at each other. It seems very silly to think that anyone but the devil would know what he wants or how he intends to go about doing that.

Good point. Of course that doesn't make for a very good viral thingamabob....

"If I were the Devil....****, how am I supposed to know?" Just doesn't have the same ring to it.
 
...which is precisely what the devil does; rather than tell the truth - which is that it's the behavior, not the person that is contemptible, he convinces them of exactly the opposite.

He convinced Mr. Phelps and many in the GOP.

Your avatar would lead me to believe you are a fan of politically atheist literature anyway, so...
 
He convinced Mr. Phelps and many in the GOP.
Convinced them of what? That it's the behavior that's contemptible, not the person? I know of few in the GOP who need convincing of that; something however I'm not convinced very many Dems truly grasp.

Your avatar would lead me to believe you are a fan of politically atheist literature anyway, so...
Well, that's the problem with passing judgment on someone you don't even know. Btw, what does "politically atheist" even mean? :thinking:

I'm a fan of Atlas Shrugged, yes; I'll freely admit it - pray tell why I should be embarrassed by that? Irrespective of my avatar, if you knew anything about the book you might even recognize my name as well. But so what? What in the world does that have to do with my comment about homosexual behavior versus the person? Or is it perhaps that your only retort to my comment is a puerile ad-hominem?

Fwiw, being a fan of Atlas Shrugged in no way proves I am a fan of her religious beliefs. But if you want to play that game, bring it on!
 
Convinced them of what? That it's the behavior that's contemptible, not the person? I know of few in the GOP who need convincing of that; something however I'm not convinced very many Dems truly grasp.

Convinced Phelps that it's the person that's contemptible.

Well, that's the problem with passing judgment on someone you don't even know. Btw, what does "politically atheist" even mean? :thinking:

I'm a fan of Atlas Shrugged, yes; I'll freely admit it - pray tell why I should be embarrassed by that? Irrespective of my avatar, if you knew anything about the book you might even recognize my name as well. But so what? What in the world does that have to do with my comment about homosexual behavior versus the person? Or is it perhaps that your only retort to my comment is a puerile ad-hominem?

Fwiw, being a fan of Atlas Shrugged in no way proves I am a fan of her religious beliefs. But if you want to play that game, bring it on!

If you're a fan of the book, wouldn't you be a Libertarian? Wouldn't you be in favor of people having the right to be happy with themselves? I don't think you can be a fan of Rand philosophies and a Christian at the same time. She does not advocate for Christian philosophies, in fact one could argue that her individualistic thinking is the opposite of Christianity.

If I were the Devil, I'd write a book that was contrary to the teachings of Jesus and convince people that it was "Christian" to follow that philosophy,

Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.

Introducing Objectivism - The Ayn Rand Institute

Those ideas are not Christian, and one could easily see them as pro-gay rights. If a man's own happiness is his highest moral purpose (as it is according to Rand herself), then no sexual behavior is reprehensible.
 
Convinced Phelps that it's the person that's contemptible.

If you're a fan of the book, wouldn't you be a Libertarian? Wouldn't you be in favor of people having the right to be happy with themselves? I don't think you can be a fan of Rand philosophies and a Christian at the same time. She does not advocate for Christian philosophies, in fact one could argue that her individualistic thinking is the opposite of Christianity.

If I were the Devil, I'd write a book that was contrary to the teachings of Jesus and convince people that it was "Christian" to follow that philosophy,

Introducing Objectivism - The Ayn Rand Institute

Those ideas are not Christian, and one could easily see them as pro-gay rights. If a man's own happiness is his highest moral purpose (as it is according to Rand herself), then no sexual behavior is reprehensible.
Friend, I'm quite aware of what Ayn Rand teaches w/r to religion as well as objectivism. No, she wasn't a Christian; yes, some of her philosophy is contrary to Christian teaching. But to embark down that path here would be a complete derail of this thread. If you want to discuss it elsewhere, I'm more than happy to do that.
 
Those ideas are not Christian, and one could easily see them as pro-gay rights. If a man's own happiness is his highest moral purpose (as it is according to Rand herself), then no sexual behavior is reprehensible.

You're Ayn Rand is not only non christian it's ANTI-Christian.

But no, mans OWN happiness is his highest moral purpose ... if you're not gay, and gay people bother you, then yeah, you can morally oppress gay people ACCORDING to randian philosophy, since it bothers you and the happiness of gay people isn't your problem.
 
You're Ayn Rand is not only non christian it's ANTI-Christian.

But no, mans OWN happiness is his highest moral purpose ... if you're not gay, and gay people bother you, then yeah, you can morally oppress gay people ACCORDING to randian philosophy, since it bothers you and the happiness of gay people isn't your problem.
...just... wow.
 
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