The Pope Nails It: "Money Sickens the Mind"

head of joaquin said:

Yeah, when it suits their purpose (i.e., when it's about government helping the poor) suddenly they want to keep Christian values out of government. But when it's about posting the 10 commandments in courts, or imposing certain denominational prayers on school kids, that's different. Then they want government to act on their behalf.

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I thought you guys had nothing against that, but you do. But when you can siphon money out of the pockets of perfect strangers IN THE NAME OF helping the poor (in the name of, not actually helping any poor mind you), then suddenly putting Christianity on the entire populace in the form of a tax..............there you are big as day. Then you're the biggest Christian there ever was. You think you working in his name........he'll confess he never knew you, hypocrites. Charity is only counted by free will alone, otherwise it isn't charity at all but a tax.

RGacky3 said:

Wonderful, I love how now a conservative is insiting on the church and state seperation.

Eitherway, In the bible whole nations we're judged for their treatment of the poor among them, the nation of Israel was organized around social justice, as was the early christian community.

Being a Christian means you're WHOLE life, including your involvement in supporting or opposing economic systems, policies or philosophies.

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I was hoping a leftwinger like you would cite it for me, but I had to. You don't support free will exercise of religion as conservatives do, but imposed pseudo-Christianity through a tax, imposed on everyone by law.

head of joaquin said:

No real difference. You don't accumulate and keep money if you don't love it. If you love others, you assist the poor and needy with your money -- you don't buy vacations homes and leave the scraps for the poor. Indeed, as Matthew 25 shows, that's the only question Jesus will ask of you: how did you treat the poor, the widow, the orphan, the prisoner. Those that answer that they gave to charity, but kept millions for themselves are going to be sorely surprised.

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Have you ever heard of someone saving up to buy Christmas gifts?

Also, when a person buys a vacation home, they're essentially giving every person who helped produce the materials for that home and constructing the home itself some money in exchange for work.

American said:

I was hoping a leftwinger like you would cite it for me, but I had to. You don't support free will exercise of religion as conservatives do, but imposed pseudo-Christianity through a tax, imposed on everyone by law.

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No, I don't want to impose christianity, but I don't forget I'm a christian when I'm dealing with social, political and economic issues ...

When you meet judgement and your asked why you didn't follow Jesus' command in Matthew 25:31-46 in how you approached social and economic issues I wonder if "But I'm not allowed to have religion in politics," will fly ... somehow I doubt it.

American said:

I thought you guys had nothing against that, but you do. But when you can siphon money out of the pockets of perfect strangers IN THE NAME OF helping the poor (in the name of, not actually helping any poor mind you), then suddenly putting Christianity on the entire populace in the form of a tax..............there you are big as day. Then you're the biggest Christian there ever was. You think you working in his name........he'll confess he never knew you, hypocrites. Charity is only counted by free will alone, otherwise it isn't charity at all but a tax.

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You always go back to Tax and Welfare ... as if that was the only thing socialists go for. IT isn't, infact it's a tiny tiny part of it.

But hey if you don't like it, ask God, ANYTIME God directed or backed an institution, their economic institutions were extremely egalitarian and collective.

You don't even know what CHarity is do you ... look it up, look up what the word "Charity" in the origional greek actually means (hint, it's translated from the word "agape").

JC Callender said:

Have you ever heard of someone saving up to buy Christmas gifts?

Also, when a person buys a vacation home, they're essentially giving every person who helped produce the materials for that home and constructing the home itself some money in exchange for work.

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Find that for me in scripture .... That's never been the case.

No Buying stuff doesn't make the world more equal, it isn't a virtue, it doesn't eliviate poverty .... Honestly this is rediculous, where did Jesus or ANYONE in the bible say "buy lots of stuff, because that's how you attain justice."

JC Callender said:

Have you ever heard of someone saving up to buy Christmas gifts?

Also, when a person buys a vacation home, they're essentially giving every person who helped produce the materials for that home and constructing the home itself some money in exchange for work.

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The gospel according to supply side economics.

Christianity doesn't work that way.

American said:

I was hoping a leftwinger like you would cite it for me, but I had to. You don't support free will exercise of religion as conservatives do, but imposed pseudo-Christianity through a tax, imposed on everyone by law.

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I love it when rightwingers pretend they don't want government to promote their ideology.

And what a wonderful meme -- helping the poor and needy is "pseudo-Christianity". I think we have full reversal of gospel ethics right there.

lizzie said:

What I am saying is that the Vatican and catholic church in general, is exceedingly wealthy. If the pope is having guilt issues about money, or passing condemnation, then he could at least be consistent, and live up his own standards. The pope is treated like the wealthiest of royalty. You'll have to forgive me if I doubt his sincerity, or at least his ability toward insight.

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Catholicism has a long and robust tradition for helping the poor. I'm a protestant, but a lot of protestant denominations could take a lesson from that tradition, particularly evangelicals, who seem focused on making money not assisting the poor.

American said:

2 Thessalonian 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

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I love it when rightwingers quote this verse out of context.

Paul was talking about Christians who held everything in common and benefited from the common fund the early church then established (as set forth in Acts 2). Those who benefited from the fund, had to also contributed if they could. If they couldn't, that was OK.

But good try.

American said:

There is nothing mandating the taxing of individuals to help the poor. Helping the poor is a free will exercise of faith, which many do. It's called charity.

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BUZZZZ.

Christians are admonished to help the poor. Indeed, they are required to do so. It is the ultimate evidence of faith (those who do not help others are not real Christians according to James, but are only pretending).

Thus if a particular tax policy assists the poor, Christians should in good conscience support it. Period. Political community life is part of a Christian's life just as much as family and work.

If there are sincere differences about the outcome of the policy, that's different. But of course conservatives don't have honest factual objections in this regard; they simply put their anti-tax fetish above the requirements of the gospel. Conservatives don't care whether progressive taxes help the poor or not; they are simply against as a matter of their own anti-tax gospel.

TacticalEvilDan said:

No, my claim -- and Goshin's, if I'm not mistaken -- is that if you interpret Jesus' words literally and out of both context and common sense, it's wrong to have money in any amount, and that this was likely not Jesus' intent.

You have been asked repeatedly how much is too much, according to your understanding of scripture, or if having any at all is too much.

Are you going to answer the question, or are you going to keep dancing around and misdirecting the discussion?

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Excellent. Now that we've passed the literalists threshold and don't have to worry about that canard, we can look at the meaning of the admonition. The meaning, in context, is that the rich have their hearts on money (i.e.,, themselves) not on God (i.e., not in helping others). That's why they store up treasure on earth. Now if the reason for saving money is actually to help others (such as saving for you kids) or if it isn't literally "storing up" (a pension defers money you could get now for later usage, thus simply maintaining your lifestyle), then the admonition doesn't apply.

How does that help you and Goshin? Your rhetorical strategy was simply that since Jesus can't be taken literally his admonition means virtually nothing and at the very least doesn't target the rich. The opposite is true: the meaning clearly targets the rich, who store up wealth for their own narcissistic use.

American said:

Helping the poor by legislating welfare laws, does not equate to help the poor through free will.

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Sure it does, since voting is an expression of free will. The fundie attempt to claim that Christians can't express their values in their public and community and political life is simply a self-serving way to argue against helping the poor. It doesn't compute.

Tax policy is tax policy. We vote on it directly or indirectly. Christians are obliged to vote for tax policies that help the poor. Why would you characterize that as somehow coerced? What are you talking about? Oh I get it, this is just a disingenuous way of saying that taxes are coerced and illegitimate. Sorry, that's adolescent and a different talking point.