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What's the point of the Apocalypse?

Paschendale said:
Admittedly, it's been a while since I read Revelations, but I don't recall any squashing going on. I remember regulations on commerce, and telling people not to worship god, but nothing about genocide. At least not until Jesus starts emptying the bowls and everyone starts dying.
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Here:

Revelation 13:15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.
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Canell said:
Howdy, people!

If the Apocalypse predicts bad (to say the least) things for humanity and the planet, what's the point of all this?
Is the Revelation of John a warning to be evaded or an inevitable nightmare to be lived through?

Do you think the Apocalypse is a self-fulfilling prophecy?
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God doesn't punish, so from that perspective it's BS. What it might be is a prophecy defined by human agents. To whatever extent this might be literal or metaphorical is anyone's guess.

I think that at this juncture, it's rather sad that religion should still be utilised towards nefarious ends.
 
Canell said:
Howdy, people!

If the Apocalypse predicts bad (to say the least) things for humanity and the planet, what's the point of all this?
Is the Revelation of John a warning to be evaded or an inevitable nightmare to be lived through?

Do you think the Apocalypse is a self-fulfilling prophecy?
Click to expand...

As a Baha'i, I don't believe life on this planet will come to an end anytime soon: The current cycle of mankind is expected to go on for ca. 500,000 years.

That doesn't mean there can't be apocalyptic events before then. Maybe the apocalypse described there is a metaphor for an individual or collective spiritual state, and the turmoil described will not manifest in the outside world, but in the minds and souls of the believers. Or maybe there will once be external events of shocking magnitude -- but life still goes on thereafter. Or maybe it happened already, as those believe who think John described the events around ca. 70 to 100 AD, the persecution of the early Christians in the Roman Empire.

"Self-fulfilling prophecy" is an interesting point. Yes, I believe it's almost inevitable that as long as belief in an external apocalypse is common and widespread, it's only a matter of time until the situation fits and certain leaders will ascend to the positions allegedly predicted in John. And would that mean it's not real? Would even Jesus have been possible, without the self-fulfilling prophecy of coming of the Messiah, which caused many people to recognize Jesus as the Messiah? Maybe that was God's way of chosing Jesus?

Interesting is that such a situation, a self-fulfilling apocalypse I mean, might even reconcile the major monotheistic religions: A person comes back and claims to be Jesus' Second Coming. All the Jews have to do is recognizing him as their long awaited Messiah -- this time. And Muslims believe in Jesus' Second Coming in the End Times too, so there would be no problem. Then all Jesus would have to do is telling all three groups to be nice to each other and to unite -- et voilà! ;)
 
Canell said:
Howdy, people!

If the Apocalypse predicts bad (to say the least) things for humanity and the planet, what's the point of all this?
Is the Revelation of John a warning to be evaded or an inevitable nightmare to be lived through?

Do you think the Apocalypse is a self-fulfilling prophecy?
Click to expand...
So we can shoot zombies.
 
The apocalypse is a fairy tale to keep believers in line, to maintain the impression that if they are pious enough they will be taken into Heaven when hell on earth happens.

"No one will know the time, or the hour" is pretty darned convenient. But I guess that allows the religious institutions to flog their followers with shame whenever something bad happens in the world. Revelations was translated from Koine which means it's at least 2000 years old. This spin-doctor prophecy has been keeping the religious paranoid for a very long time.

This planet has existed for billions of years. It's not going anywhere. Even if most of humanity is wiped out, there will always be some survivors. We're stubborn like that.
 
A) man rejected God's legal authority

B) God allows this time period to play out, where we are ruled by 'the God of this system of things' to answer the challenge that 'man doesn't need God'

C) God appoints a time where he re-takes earth and the matter of God's legal authority is 'settled once for all time' (apocalypse)

So the apocalypse of Revelation is the final link in the chain where God re-asserts his authority in the universe (well, earth) and ends this experiment of man ruling man (obvious failure)

Furthermore:

D) this is a brief period of time typified by global war / famine / weather and solar events

E) after the 'apocalypse' is the resurrection of ALL mankind and a period of 1000 years where Christ is ruler of earth (and fully explains these deep moral conceptions to the common pool of mankind)
 
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Verthaine said:
Not very filling or tasty.
If you want to take what somebody's opinions on some blog as evidence,that is on you.
I can't help but notice that the writer of that article did NOT produce "A SMOKING GUN".

All he did (in a nushell) was go "well this person believes it,and that person who is an authority believes its". and ask some questions.
There was no actual concrete physical EVIDENCE provided.
So what?
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And you will never get that smoking gun. That's what faith is all about. When you poke a crab with a stick, it behaves as if you've poked it. This is predictable, observable, and completely unremarkable. It would require nothing from you to believe in a God that you encountered physically on a daily basis. The requirement of faith in God's existence is that element of human trust God requires. If you prefer the crab experience, don't expect anything more than the world already delivers to your senses.
 
Canell said:
Howdy, people!

If the Apocalypse predicts bad (to say the least) things for humanity and the planet, what's the point of all this?
Is the Revelation of John a warning to be evaded or an inevitable nightmare to be lived through?

Do you think the Apocalypse is a self-fulfilling prophecy?
Click to expand...

The winchester brothers will confront Satan and through sheer force of will condemn the prince of darkness back to his pit as foretold in the supernatural chronicals.

Btw I love that show.
 
humbolt said:
And you will never get that smoking gun. That's what faith is all about. When you poke a crab with a stick, it behaves as if you've poked it. This is predictable, observable, and completely unremarkable. It would require nothing from you to believe in a God that you encountered physically on a daily basis. The requirement of faith in God's existence is that element of human trust God requires. If you prefer the crab experience, don't expect anything more than the world already delivers to your senses.
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Is the ability to believe in something for which there is no evidence a necessary virtue?
 
Dittohead not! said:
Is the ability to believe in something for which there is no evidence a necessary virtue?
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No. I think that depends on what might be required to satisfy a person's desire to understand what appears nonsensical or not immediately clear. Things do exist for which there is no physical evidence and no rational explanation. It is not necessary to believe any of such things do exist. All one requires is respiration, food, warmth and shelter. The rest is extra stuff.
 
humbolt said:
And you will never get that smoking gun. That's what faith is all about. When you poke a crab with a stick, it behaves as if you've poked it. This is predictable, observable, and completely unremarkable. It would require nothing from you to believe in a God that you encountered physically on a daily basis. The requirement of faith in God's existence is that element of human trust God requires. If you prefer the crab experience, don't expect anything more than the world already delivers to your senses.
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Good morning, humbolt. :2wave:

While science has made great strides in discovering new and helpful benefits for the world population in such areas as eradicating disease and increased food production, as examples, they still cannot explain the human need to believe in something greater than ourselves. That requires faith, and belief in things that cannot be explained. How sad to think that only what we can see is the best we can hope for. That equals despair and hopelessness, IMO. Governments have come and gone over the ages, but religious beliefs of all sorts endure. There is a reason for that! :thumbs:
 
polgara said:
Good morning, humbolt. :2wave:

While science has made great strides in discovering new and helpful benefits for the world population in such areas as eradicating disease and increased food production, as examples, they still cannot explain the human need to believe in something greater than ourselves. That requires faith, and belief in things that cannot be explained. How sad to think that only what we can see is the best we can hope for. That equals despair and hopelessness, IMO. Governments have come and gone over the ages, but religious beliefs of all sorts endure. There is a reason for that! :thumbs:
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Agreed. There's more reason for human imagination than developing a new cap snaffler.
 
Paschendale said:
Okay, I have a question. And for this question, we'll take Revelations at face value. Prophecy, ordained by god, all of that. Suppose the antichrist is around, right now. Such a person knows who and what they are, right? They're probably literate, too, and can easily read the bible. Therefore, they can find out that their plan is doomed to fail. Would not an even remotely sane antichrist not do what is thus foretold in the bible? Either abandon their plan altogether or at least alter it, since the plan as written cannot succeed? Or if they can't change their destiny, and are doomed to play out this scenario, can we really call them evil? If they do not want to do an evil act, but have their free will curtailed by god and are forced to do evil, aren't they slaves being victimized by an evil god?

Of all the things in the bible, Revelations relies on a cunning villain either never reading the bible, being incapable of understanding it, being too detached from reality to understand the consequences and act to prevent them, or unable to make the decision for themselves. How do you reconcile that problem?
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Covered all the bases here.

Open and shut case.
 
Canell said:
The thing is the Antichrist doesn't know he is the Antichrist. He thinks he is a Great Teacher and a Saviour. He is a sophist which doesn't know any better, imho. :)
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So what happens when it is revealed that he is the antichrist and the Christians start blabbering about it. He's bound to get wind of it somehow. Then what?
 
Northern Light said:
The apocalypse is a fairy tale to keep believers in line, to maintain the impression that if they are pious enough they will be taken into Heaven when hell on earth happens.

"No one will know the time, or the hour" is pretty darned convenient. But I guess that allows the religious institutions to flog their followers with shame whenever something bad happens in the world. Revelations was translated from Koine which means it's at least 2000 years old. This spin-doctor prophecy has been keeping the religious paranoid for a very long time.

This planet has existed for billions of years. It's not going anywhere. Even if most of humanity is wiped out, there will always be some survivors. We're stubborn like that.
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You are right.


In reality though, eventually the sun will supernova and we will die. And if somehow we have life on planets in other galaxies ( highly unlikely), eventually the universe will run out of energy and suffer a heat death, or go cold.

See law of thermodynamics 1 and 2

Not disagreeing with you just adding something to the conversation :)
 
Canell said:
Howdy, people!

If the Apocalypse predicts bad (to say the least) things for humanity and the planet, what's the point of all this?
Is the Revelation of John a warning to be evaded or an inevitable nightmare to be lived through?

Do you think the Apocalypse is a self-fulfilling prophecy?
Click to expand...

no. every time anyone starts writing about apocalyptic events its because the world they know is going through change, upheaval, social and economic dislocation, invasion from outsiders, plague, pestilence etc.

that is all.

it really isn't about what will happen. its about what is happening.

people who focus on apocalyptic scenarios at other times are just miserable pessimists.
 
Canell said:
Howdy, people!

If the Apocalypse predicts bad (to say the least) things for humanity and the planet, what's the point of all this?
Is the Revelation of John a warning to be evaded or an inevitable nightmare to be lived through?

Do you think the Apocalypse is a self-fulfilling prophecy?
Click to expand...
Give it a couple years, Obama will get the fires started.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Give it a couple years, Obama will get the fires started.
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No, I give it a couple of months. :roll: Please, read my signature.
 
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