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Abortion on Christian Grounds

Isn't it beyond painfully obvious that the bible was purposefully meant to be so ambiguous that any literal interpretation of the text was never the intent of the fables to begin with?

Even the biggest and baddest commandment of them all, thou shall not kill is ambiguous.
How many people did "god" kill throughout the book?

Obviously there are times when killing is acceptable.

The bible is not a black and white book of directions and guidelines. It's every imaginable shade of grey along with every other color under the sun.

Every verse that can be used to "justify" one thing, can be disqualified by some other verse somewhere else.
 
Dragonfly said:
Isn't it beyond painfully obvious that the bible was purposefully meant to be so ambiguous that any literal interpretation of the text was never the intent of the fables to begin with?

Even the biggest and baddest commandment of them all, thou shall not kill is ambiguous.
How many people did "god" kill throughout the book?

Obviously there are times when killing is acceptable.

The bible is not a black and white book of directions and guidelines. It's every imaginable shade of grey along with every other color under the sun.

Every verse that can be used to "justify" one thing, can be disqualified by some other verse somewhere else.
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Only to those who do not understand the Bible. That's why there's such a thing called, Bible Study.
And that's why Christians are supposed to ask the Holy Spirit for understanding when reading the Bible.

It is understandable for non-believers to be confused about it.....
 
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Choiceone had brought up religion in the Abortion section. I'm bringing this up so we can discuss the religion side of it here - specifically, Christian - if she wants to pursue it.
 
tosca1 said:
It's not being used as a legal document, but obviously, the Bible is the source where a Christian will understand what is required from him by God!

If we're supposed to obey God, we have to know what it is that He wants! How can one obey something he doesn't know anything about?
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Here's what I'll say on the matter ... Yes Reading the scriptures CAREFULLY and Reading between the lines will show that most scriptures consider a fetus to be a human in the eyes of God, and you're willing (rightly) to say given that I will apply that to my approach to civil matters, or matters of state. (one thing I'll add is the didache, and many Church fathers, such as Tertullian confirm that early christians did not practice abortion .... it also shows they refused to engage in warfare or serve in the legions, and that they held all Things in common and so on)

YET, when it comes to Social Justice, something which is BLATENT in the scriptures, over and over and over again, straight forward, in the mosaic Law, it Gods judgement of the nations, in the first Century Church, in Jesus' mission statement in the commands of God, in the prophets, in the epistles and so on .... It's over and over again, communities are to focus on social justice, as are both individuals and governments. Justice for the poor, social equality and so on .... IMMEDIATELY the right wing christian forgets how to apply biblical ethics, decides ... ohhhh seperation of Church and state .... ohhh this is just individual, ohhh no no no, we can't apply biblical ethics to society ....

I'ts hypocracy, if it is right to as a christian read between the lines to see that a fetus is sometimes considered to be a person (using very difficult exegesis), and then consider it a christian imperative to push for that in civic life .... yet to ignore the much more vast and much more Clear admonition to push for social justice in civic life.
 
tosca1 said:
A discussion with a Christian elder led to the issues of abortion and gay marriage. To my surprise, he stated that, "the pages are blank" on those issues - meaning they're not in the Bible. It is true. Nowhere in the Bible does it explicitly state, "Thou shalt not abort"....but I don't think the pages are blank. So I did my own research. THE PAGES ARE INDEED NOT BLANK! Here are the results.

This elderly is a good man with good intentions, doing his own ministry of visiting state penitentiaries, actively doing his part in spreading not only the gospel, but compassion and kindness. I pray to be blessed with the same dedication and perseverance.

I wrestled with myself whether I should inform him of my findings....even now, I still don't know if I should.

His view about those issues is however not unique. There are Christians who share the same view.

This thread is for my brothers and sisters in Christ. It is written with love, and in the spirit of sharing. I do hope you share them with others. The pages are not blank. We just need glasses to see.
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Another example that sola scriptura leads to absurdities. He's absolutely right that abortion isn't mentioned in the Bible. Still, Christians know that this is an inherent evil.
 
phattonez said:
Another example that sola scriptura leads to absurdities. He's absolutely right that abortion isn't mentioned in the Bible. Still, Christians know that this is an inherent evil.
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Except for all the Christians that don't.
 
While the actual word "abortion" is not found in the Bible (neither are the words "Bible," "millenium," or "Trinity") there's enough information contained in the scriptures to show that abortion is a sinful practice.

For instance, Jesus, John the Baptist, and the prophet Jeremiah were all prophesied / ordained before they were ever born. So, would the pro-abortionists murder the Son of God in the womb?

More in the link below:

Obama vs. the Bible – Abortion « The Righter Report
 
tosca1 said:
Ground # 5

We have to look inside and ask, why did we want religion in the first place?
Why did we embrace Christianity? What is our reason for being a Christian?

If the answer is salvation and eternal life, then it's very crucial to know and understand God's will, and to be able to discern when we're being misled. Otherwise, what's the point? Why bother going through all the motion? It's not like as if we're on a trial run.

Eternal life is the purpose of this whole exercise, is it not?
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Do you expect us to read all that? Can't you make your point succinct?
 
Dragonfly said:
Even the biggest and baddest commandment of them all, thou shall not kill is ambiguous.
How many people did "god" kill throughout the book?

Obviously there are times when killing is acceptable.
Click to expand...

Even more than that. How are humans supposed to live if we don't kill? Kill plants. Kill animals. That is food. Thou shall not kill is stupid.
 
RGacky3 said:
Here's what I'll say on the matter ... Yes Reading the scriptures CAREFULLY and Reading between the lines will show that most scriptures consider a fetus to be a human in the eyes of God, and you're willing (rightly) to say given that I will apply that to my approach to civil matters, or matters of state. (one thing I'll add is the didache, and many Church fathers, such as Tertullian confirm that early christians did not practice abortion .... it also shows they refused to engage in warfare or serve in the legions, and that they held all Things in common and so on)

YET, when it comes to Social Justice, something which is BLATENT in the scriptures, over and over and over again, straight forward, in the mosaic Law, it Gods judgement of the nations, in the first Century Church, in Jesus' mission statement in the commands of God, in the prophets, in the epistles and so on .... It's over and over again, communities are to focus on social justice, as are both individuals and governments. Justice for the poor, social equality and so on .... IMMEDIATELY the right wing christian forgets how to apply biblical ethics, decides ... ohhhh seperation of Church and state .... ohhh this is just individual, ohhh no no no, we can't apply biblical ethics to society ....

I'ts hypocracy, if it is right to as a christian read between the lines to see that a fetus is sometimes considered to be a person (using very difficult exegesis), and then consider it a christian imperative to push for that in civic life .... yet to ignore the much more vast and much more Clear admonition to push for social justice in civic life.
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Social justice encompasses a lot of areas. Do you think social justice does not apply to the unborn?

I don't know what you're on about the poor....I don't think any Christian here ever indicated that we should forget about the poor. I'm sure a lot of Christians in this forum try their best to help out in any way we can. There are numerous Christian organizations all over the world doing what they can to alleviate the sufferings of the poor and the downtrodden.

But that's not what you're truly after, is it? You're a political activist - nothing wrong with that. Is anyone here stopping you from your activism?


Do you begrudge the effort by pro-lifers to save the lives of the unborn? Do you find that this takes away from the poor?
If you have the heart to feel for the poor.....surely you must have compassion as well to the defenseless unborn that are being tortured and killed as we speak. Surely you understand the urgency of the situation.

If you want to talk about your politics - you create your own thread.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Do you expect us to read all that? Can't you make your point succinct?
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:roll:

I expect Christians who'd be interested in it to read, yes. After all, this thread is for Christians.
If you're not a Christian, then stop your whining. :lol:


This thread is for my brothers and sisters in Christ.
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phattonez said:
Much like the other acronoym, they are Christians in Name Only.
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One, this is a logical fallacy known as "One True Scotsman", and two, it is a violation of Christian teachings.
 
tosca1 said:
Social justice encompasses a lot of areas. Do you think social justice does not apply to the unborn?

I don't know what you're on about the poor....I don't think any Christian here ever indicated that we should forget about the poor. I'm sure a lot of Christians in this forum try their best to help out in any way we can. There are numerous Christian organizations all over the world doing what they can to alleviate the sufferings of the poor and the downtrodden.

But that's not what you're truly after, is it? You're a political activist - nothing wrong with that. Is anyone here stopping you from your activism?

Do you begrudge the effort by pro-lifers to save the lives of the unborn? Do you find that this takes away from the poor?
If you have the heart to feel for the poor.....surely you must have compassion as well to the defenseless unborn that are being tortured and killed as we speak. Surely you understand the urgency of the situation.

If you want to talk about your politics - you create your own thread.
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Absolutely, it applies to the unborn, I don't begrudge pro-lifers at all, the problem is when on one side of their mouth the demand justice for the unborn (which is good), while on the otherside they Call for cruelty against the poor. When the former is based on a valid but very vague Reading of between the lines in scripture, whereas the latter is blatent and straight forward in scripture.
 
RGacky3 said:
Absolutely, it applies to the unborn, I don't begrudge pro-lifers at all, the problem is when on one side of their mouth the demand justice for the unborn (which is good), while on the otherside they Call for cruelty against the poor. When the former is based on a valid but very vague Reading of between the lines in scripture, whereas the latter is blatent and straight forward in scripture.
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We've had that discussion about your socialist-based politics that you keep inserting in the Scriptures. If you want to bring that up again, do so in your own thread. Don't de-rail this topic.
 
phattonez said:
Another example that sola scriptura leads to absurdities. He's absolutely right that abortion isn't mentioned in the Bible. Still, Christians know that this is an inherent evil.
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No, nothing in the Bible says, "Thou shalt not abort thy unborn." The law in Exodus was explicit enough, though.

And if you read and understand the listed grounds, you'd see that these grounds SUPPORT and are CONSISTENT with one another in a logical way. Therefore, it is there.

Some critics dismissed the verses that described the "fruit of the womb" by claiming they're nothing more than poetry!
They may be poetry indeed....but Job and Isaiah, from different timelines, spouting off practically the same poetic descriptions about the fetus....that makes it more than just mere poetry! If there is no significance about the fetus, why would they waste time writing poetry about the unborn?


I'd given you reasons about Sola Scriptura in your topic, Sola Scriptura and Canon.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/177716-sola-scriptura-and-canon-14.html

Here are some of my points from that topic:

Deut 8
3 He humbled you, he made you feel hunger, he fed you with manna which neither you nor your ancestors had ever known, to make you understand that human beings live not on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of Yahweh.

We live on EVERY WORD that comes from the mouth of God.
And we know that a God-inspired Book will therefore be consistent with the message or the theme being conveyed, after all there is actually but One Author.

It is God's instructions that only matters.

How many times did Jesus emphasize the importance of what's been written? How many times did He use the phrase,
"It's been Written" when He was fighting off Satan?
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I've also repeatedly stated that we know a book is inspired by God by its consistency with the other books in the Scriptures, after all, God will not contradict Himself.
I gave you Praying to Mary and saints as an example that shows contradictions and inconsistencies with the Scriptures.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/177953-re-praying-mary-and-saints.html



You know what, we should do a series about, "Why Sola Scriptura."
Praying to Mary was the first.
Maybe we should do a second with Peter - the "Rock" - as claimed to be the foundation of the Church of Christ.
 
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We have to be careful how we influence other Christians, especially those that are newly converted, and trying to learn the Gospel.


Matt 18:6

But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
 
Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post

I believe GOd is a Fact.

tosca1 said:
I know that. I believe you.
That was just a point I made and it shows.....how you easily jump in support of an ideology .....
and you didn't see how at the same time, that non-believer had stated a declaration that your God is a myth.

Thus we have to be very careful what we follow, support, endorse and abet.


Yes we can all say we believe in God. We believe He is real. But apparently, according to Jesus that is not enough.
We have to love Him with all our heart, and soul and mind.....and we have to OBEY Him.

Simply professing faith cannot save us. Our actions has to match that faith.


Matt 7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

You will see me repeatedly stating HUMILITY IN OBEDIENCE is a key factor, not only to being a disciple....but also for blessings.

An Act of God is usually precipitated by an act of obedience.
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This was moved from the abortion section since it's really getting indepth with religion.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/abort...nti-choice-depending-your-perspective-62.html

I still have something to say but it has to wait.....gotta go.
 
tosca1 said:
We've had that discussion about your socialist-based politics that you keep inserting in the Scriptures. If you want to bring that up again, do so in your own thread. Don't de-rail this topic.
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Inserting into the scriptures ... you admit here that Your anti-abortion stance comes from Reading Things into the scriptures that arn't there, i.e. Reading inbetween the lines.

The arguments you're giving although I may agree With some of them (not all), are very much Reading Things into scripture, or trying to take ideas out of scripture that arn't in their origional intent. Yet you when it comes to other Things in scripture, that might hurt Your right wing sensibilities, you will Climb over Mountains and do all sorts of gynmastics to try and make the scripture say something other than what it's clearly saying.

I'm asking for consistancy, that's the relevance.
 
RGacky3 said:
Inserting into the scriptures ... you admit here that Your anti-abortion stance comes from Reading Things into the scriptures that arn't there, i.e. Reading inbetween the lines.

The arguments you're giving although I may agree With some of them (not all), are very much Reading Things into scripture, or trying to take ideas out of scripture that arn't in their origional intent. Yet you when it comes to other Things in scripture, that might hurt Your right wing sensibilities, you will Climb over Mountains and do all sorts of gynmastics to try and make the scripture say something other than what it's clearly saying.

I'm asking for consistancy, that's the relevance.
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Create your own thread.
 
It's not uncommon to encounter fellow-Christians who take the sides, or sit on the same fence as the non-believer regarding contentious issues which go against the Scriptures. Abortion and same-sex marriage are the two hottest issues.

In the OLD TESTAMENT, God had forbidden Jews to marry or to ally and associate themselves with non-believers for a reason.
It's not because of the colour of their skin.

Deut 7:3-4 “Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you.” NIV

Josh 23:12-13 “But if you turn away and ally yourselves with the survivors of these nations that remain among you and if you intermarry with them and associate with them, then you may be sure that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations before you. Instead, they will become snares and traps for you, whips on your backs and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land, which the LORD your God has given you.” NIV
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Even the New Testament warns us about this:

2 Cor 6:14-15 “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?” NIV
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When a Christian breaks away from his brothers/sisters and takes up the cause being fought for by a non-believer, and fight for it alongside the non-believer - he ends up unwittingly drawn away from his God. That's the reason why we are warned from being allied or associated with non-believers.

How can it not draw us away, especially with these contentious issues that are against the Scriptures?
Like the Bible says: they will become snares and traps for you,

You'll be confused. Most things will become unclear to you - they'll be "grey" areas. You'll get influenced in the long run.
You'll be led away.
 
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tosca1 said:
It's not uncommon to encounter fellow-Christians who take the sides, or sit on the same fence as the non-believer regarding contentious issues which go against the Scriptures. Abortion and same-sex marriage are the two hottest issues.

In the OLD TESTAMENT, God had forbidden Jews to marry or to ally and associate themselves with non-believers for a reason.
It's not because of the colour of their skin.




Even the New Testament warns us about this:


When a Christian breaks away from his brothers/sisters and takes up the cause being fought for by a non-believer, and fight for it alongside the non-believer - he ends up unwittingly drawn away from his God. That's the reason why we are warned from being allied or associated with non-believers.

How can it not draw us away, especially with these contentious issues that are against the Scriptures?
Like the Bible says: they will become snares and traps for you,

You'll be confused. Most things will become unclear to you - they'll be "grey" areas. You'll get influenced in the long run.
You'll be led away.
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Does that also apply to the libertarian movement (a whole lot of them are atheists), those scriptures are about marriage .... NOT Politicl movements and you know it, don't twist scripture like that.

What is righteous is righteous no matter who does or does not support it.
 
In truth, when we serve our own interests and ignore God we have transgressed the law, have we not?
Why do women get abortions? There are of course many reasons. But how many of these reasons are not around "what do "I" want" ?
If we are not asking what God wants of us, then we are lost already.

One might expect the laws of men to fall somewhat short of what God wants. Our very human nature makes us selfish and self-serving.
The entire Bible is the story of God repeatedly showing us what he wants from us, and the response over and over from the people, attempting to circumvent God's will (truth) for their own desires.
Abortion is but one of many ways in which we attempt to become god ourselves.

Those who equivocate based on this or that scripture are simply playing their own fiddle. God isn't dancing to it.

God says: "For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

Human nature answers: "What is truth?"
 
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RGacky3 said:
Does that also apply to the libertarian movement (a whole lot of them are atheists), those scriptures are about marriage .... NOT Politicl movements and you know it, don't twist scripture like that.

What is righteous is righteous no matter who does or does not support it.
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By the looks of it, it is more than just marriage. It is any form of alliances.

Josh 23:12-13 “But if you turn away and ally yourselves with the survivors of these nations that remain among you and if you intermarry with them and associate with them, then you may be sure that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations before you. Instead, they will become snares and traps for you, whips on your backs and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land, which the LORD your God has given you.” NIV

2 Cor 6:14-15 “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?” NIV

A yoke is a wooden bar that joins two oxen to each other and to the burden they pull. An “unequally yoked” team has one stronger ox and one weaker, or one taller and one shorter. The weaker or shorter ox would walk slower than the taller, stronger one, causing the load to go around in circles. When oxen are unequally yoked, they cannot perform the task set before them. Instead of working together, they are at odds with one another.

Paul’s admonition in 2 Corinthians 6:14 is part of a larger discourse to the church at Corinth on the Christian life. He discouraged them from being in an unequal partnership with unbelievers because believers and unbelievers are opposites, just as light and darkness are opposites. They simply have nothing in common, just as Christ has nothing in common with “Belial,” a Hebrew word meaning worthlessness (v. 15). Here Paul uses it to refer to Satan. The idea is that the pagan, wicked, unbelieving world, is governed by the principles of Satan, and that Christians should be separate from that wicked world, just as Christ was separate from all the methods, purposes, and plans of Satan. He had no participation in them, He formed no union with them, and so it should be with the followers of the one in relation to the followers of the other. Attempting to live a Christian life with a non-Christian for our close friend and ally will only cause us go around in circles.

The “unequal yoke” is often applied to business relationships. For a Christian to enter into a partnership with an unbeliever is to court disaster. They have opposite worldviews and morals, and business decisions that must be made daily will reflect one or the other. For the relationship to work, one or the other must abandon his moral center and move toward that of the other. More often than not, it is the believer who finds himself pressured to leave his Christian principles behind for the sake of profit and the growth of the business.
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Read more: What does it mean to be unequally yoked?

How true it is that you'll have to shed your Christian morals if you allied yourself with the non-believers. How much more clear can it be when they no longer see abortion as an act of murder, among other things?
 
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Cable said:
In truth, when we serve our own interests and ignore God we have transgressed the law, have we not?
Why do women get abortions? There are of course many reasons. But how many of these reasons are not around "what do "I" want" ?
If we are not asking what God wants of us, then we are lost already.

One might expect the laws of men to fall somewhat short of what God wants. Our very human nature makes us selfish and self-serving.
The entire Bible is the story of God repeatedly showing us what he wants from us, and the response over and over from the people, attempting to circumvent God's will (truth) for their own desires.
Abortion is but one of many ways in which we attempt to become god ourselves.

Those who equivocate based on this or that scripture are simply playing their own fiddle. God isn't dancing to it.

God says: "For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

Human nature answers: "What is truth?"
Click to expand...

Self had become the modern day Baal.
 
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