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About faith

tosca1 said:
What kind of miracle are we talking about here?

Are you really talking about asking God - humbly - to perform a miracle, as proof?
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Do you believe in the following verse in the Bible:

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.-James 1:5

When it comes to interpretations of the Bible I believe that verse gives the proper methodology to use. In no way did I mean we should ask for signs before we believe.
 
ChezC3 said:
Without doubt there is no faith...
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I don't think this is necessarily true. And Jesus did say that blessed are those who believe without seeing (in reference to "Doubting Thomas").
 
laska said:
Red Sea was parted in Exodus, Christ calmed the seas, turned water into wine, and miraculously fed the multitudes. I have no doubt a righteous person with the spirit of God guiding them and who has real priesthood authority, if the spirit guides them to say mountain move hence, it would happen.
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I don't either.
 
nota bene said:
I don't think this is necessarily true. And Jesus did say that blessed are those who believe without seeing (in reference to "Doubting Thomas").
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Faith without doubt is certainty of Knowledge.

Knowledge requires proof which alleviates doubt, therefore no faith is necessary.

If I may quote Kierkegaard

“If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe,(he does not believe because he would have certainty of knowledge)but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe.”(lack of certainty is doubt, therefore he must have faith)

:)
 
laska said:
Do you believe in the following verse in the Bible:

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.-James 1:5

When it comes to interpretations of the Bible I believe that verse gives the proper methodology to use. In no way did I mean we should ask for signs before we believe.
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I do believe that when we humbly ask God, we are given. Our prayers are answered. The answer may not usually be the kind that we ask and expect for - but God, knowing what is best for us gives His answer in His own way. We usually understand in hindsight why or how God gave His answer. Sometimes too, the answer comes instantly, and in no uncertain terms, or even directly.

Testimonies abound....all practicing Christians have their own stories to tell. It doesn't have to be an eye-popping miracle but the person will know when something does comes from God. It is indeed a one-on-one relationship with God, and that includes the wonderful experience of having a "God moment."
 
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laska said:
As I take literally that the Red Sea was actually parted, that Jesus actually turned water into wine, that He actually calmed the seas, that He actually walked on the water, and miraculously fed the multitudes. /QUOTE]

I wouldn't have tried it at Salem...
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Someone compared Santa to God for arguments sake:


Santa - lives in north pole (difficult to travel to and verify his existence)

God - lives in the sky/outer space/heaven (also difficult to travel to and verify his existence)

Santa - Practically omniscient (watches over all, knows if you behave good or bad/evil)

God - Also omniscient (watches over all, knows if you behave good or bad/evil)

Santa - Rewards those that are good (presents/gifts) and punishes those are are bad/evil (coal)

God - Rewards those that are good (Heaven) and punishes those are are bad/evil (Hell)

Yet somehow (according to most religious folk) one of these things is complete and total truth, 100% fact, and the other a totally fictional children's fairytale/bedtime story.

Boggles my mind.
 
Canell said:
Since He allegedly knew that moving mountains is beyond human powers (moreover in an age when excavators and big trucks didn't exist), what was the meaning of those words above?
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Matthew 17:20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
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A spoon and enough time can move a mountain. Faith brings eternal life and with that all things can happen. Jesus appeared impervious to time and cured, changed, moved... healed, seemingly instantaneously, miraculously.

We've all met those we could not help. His mere presence made them whole. He is love.
 
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ecofarm said:
A spoon and enough time can move a mountain.
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Not exactly, ecofarm. There is constant soil production. While you are digging, time and Nature will add more topsoil (perhaps more than you can scoop), so you'll never be finished, my dear Sisyphus. :2razz:
 
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Canell said:
Or that it is entirely natural for humans to be in doubt. ;)
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This is exactly what I tell everybody is the reason why the whole story just doesn't add up. Humans are inquisitive by nature, and logic is an embedded trait. What kind of "god" would create humans then, and hang eternal damnation over their heads if they don't believe something they have never seen the tangible evidence for? A cruel god, and not one I would want to serve anyway. I still believe there is something - because there is too much order in the universe not to. Whatever it is, though, is not the story we're getting.

The truth has been hidden by our predecessors for the purpose of greed and control, probably sometime around when the bible came out and all libraries were burned down and knowledge was all but illegal, in an attempt to ensure the truth could not be rediscovered. It has worked so far, but only because another trait seems to be dominant in most humans - gullibility.
 
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RGacky3 said:
Where do you get the anti-blind faith thing?

I think it means what it says, obviously using hyperbole, and typical Jewish poetic language, it means what it seams to mean, i.e. if you have faith you can accomplish things that seamed impossible to you before, remember it was in the context of casting out a deamon, the apostles couldn't do it, he could, and he credited faith.
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The apostles couldn't do it - so that means that they did try. They must have had some faith if they tried, or why bother?
 
Canell said:
We all know Jesus loved talking parables. :)
Since He allegedly knew that moving mountains is beyond human powers (moreover in an age when excavators and big trucks didn't exist), what was the meaning of those words above?
I say it was an anti-blind fate argument. :)
What do you think?
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So you're saying he used pure sarcasm to promote anti-blind faith? I am totally anti-blind faith but in this context here he is saying if you had faith you could do a lot.
 
sKiTzo said:
So you're saying he used pure sarcasm to promote anti-blind faith? I am totally anti-blind faith but in this context here he is saying if you had faith you could do a lot.
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I would call it irony. ;)
Kind of "if you win the lottery, you would be very rich!". Yeah right but just try to win the lottery. :lol:
 
Imagine if the world relied on faith - would anything get done?
 
Canell said:
Well, that's what I meant. Let's read it with some translation to contemporary world, shall we? :)

19 Then the students came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cure?”

20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief (in your own skills);

So, you see, it's entirely "standart" situation to be found in any medical school. :) We have a professor (a professional) and his students (disciples) trying to cure someone. "Why couldn't we do it?". "Because you didn't know exactly what you were doing. When you learn how and be sure what you do then you will have confidence (faith) in your own work".

:peace
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What translation is that? That isn't waht he said ... he didn't say "in your own skills," if you're claiming that's what he meant, you have to show some evidence or do some exigesis ... saying "I kind of feel that that is what he meant," isn't enough.

Why don't you actually try and make a case other that just saying "I feel."
 
RGacky3 said:
What translation is that? That isn't waht he said ... he didn't say "in your own skills," if you're claiming that's what he meant, you have to show some evidence or do some exigesis ... saying "I kind of feel that that is what he meant," isn't enough.

Why don't you actually try and make a case other that just saying "I feel."
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So, what are the alternatives - that Jesus wanted to turn us into mindless uncritical faithful flock? Believe and you can have a Ferrari + the hottest chick! Just believe! :tink:
I don't think so. :wink2:
 
Canell said:
So, what are the alternatives - that Jesus wanted to turn us into mindless uncritical faithful flock? Believe and you can have a Ferrari + the hottest chick! Just believe! :tink:
I don't think so. :wink2:
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... No, the alternative is that the passage you quoted isn't refering to what you're talking about, it's talking about something else.

That's a false dicotomy. That's like me saying when Jesus said "you must bear the cross" he's saying people should have necklessas with crosses, then someone else says "that's not what he meant," then I respond by saying "YOU THINK PEOPLE SHOULD'NT HAVE CROSSES?"

No, I'm saying even if Jesus did'n believe in blind faith ... that doesn't mean the passage your quoting is saying what you claim it's saying, if you think it IS, then make a case for it.
 
Canell said:
We all know Jesus loved talking parables. :)
Since He allegedly knew that moving mountains is beyond human powers (moreover in an age when excavators and big trucks didn't exist), what was the meaning of those words above?
I say it was an anti-blind fate argument. :)
What do you think?
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I think that faith is not what the majority suppose it to be, and that true faith is the realisation that there is no difference between a moving mountain and one that remains stationary (hence all things as being possible). The lack of faith amounts to falling short of Enlightenment, whereby we mistake our lack of it for contradiction. Our understanding of it is akin to a virgin's knowledge of intercourse.
 
Canell said:
Well, there is, generally speaking, two kinds of faith - faith as confidence (you could call it professionalism, I guess) and blind faith (believe everything you are told from an authority). I don't think Jesus encouraged option 2, so it leaves option 1. :) Otherwise Jesus would be just another "wishful thinker", which I believe He is not.
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The Baha'i faith explicitly opposes "blind faith" as defined here:

2. O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.
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- Baha'u'llah: Hidden Words, Arabic 2
 
Canell said:
So, what are the alternatives - that Jesus wanted to turn us into mindless uncritical faithful flock? Believe and you can have a Ferrari + the hottest chick! Just believe! :tink:
I don't think so. :wink2:
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No Jesus isn't a genie. His words write believe in him and you will dwell in the kingdom of heaven. Nothing about granting wishes.
 
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