"Country First" is blasphemy

You should put God first, well above Caesar.

>No Gods, No masters.


What now?

In essence, yes. There is nothing wrong with patriotism or secular law ("Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's," after all), but elevating secular allegiance over religious allegiance is inherently sinful.

Doing so is basically akin to "worshiping false idols," which is in explicit violation of the first commandment.

Gathomas88 said:

In essence, yes. There is nothing wrong with patriotism or secular law ("Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's," after all), but elevating secular allegiance over religious allegiance is inherently sinful.

Doing so is basically akin to "worshiping false idols," which is in explicit violation of the first commandment.

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I suppose that works if you’re a Christian, a good Christian at that and not one who just claims the religion. But what about others of other faiths or none?

Buddha has said one should not cling to a country. They are not central to what matters in life. He went on to say Defending a country from evil forces might be worth doing, but defending his country’s power over others is simply wrong.

The above is a very short synopsis.

Quik said:

You should put God first, well above Caesar.

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wrong
put your family first

back at you:
how valid is the statement 'my country right or wrong'

Quik said:

You should put God first, well above Caesar.

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I had a 1st Sargeant who claimed he served for, "Mother, God, Country, and Apple Pie". (Personally, I saw him kill more Miller Lite and Jim Beam than apple pie but, whatevs.)

Anyhow, I'm not religious. I think faith in God is a superstitious weakness. So I'm not really effected by the "God first?", "Country first?", Fruity Pie first?" dilemma.

But just as a matter of observation, since I do have some things that I value, I think it's foolish to put any particular "something" first at all times and regardless of context or consequences.

I mean, I love my country, but if I think my country is wrong in some respect I'm not going to cotton to it just because I labor under the illusion that my country can do no wrong.

Likewise, I love my mother, but if I learn that she's really up to no good the possibility exists that I would turn her in to the authorities.

I love pie too, but break out a box of Devil Dogs and pie can kiss my hairy, white azz.

For the sake of argument I'll join the faithful for a minute in pretending that God exists.

Since God doesn't speak to you (any of you) directly (and I literally mean God SPEAKING to you, not some philisophical nonsense about God "speaking to you" through the Bible, or through the beauty of nature) the way God's word is delivered to you is through other people or through your religious documents (or through other peoples' interpretation of religious documents).

You can't REALLY know what God wants from you beyond how God's desires have been difused through human interpreters.

So you're not really putting God before country, you're putting the idea of God before country, and it's usually someone else's idea of what God is or what God wants, and there's absolutely no guarantee that what you've been told is God's will bears any resemblance at all to God's actual will.

I know you like to pretend that they're the same thing, but they're not.

I think not. I don't know what religion you are part of, mr OP, but in mine... they kind of go hand in hand. You need to love your fellow man ( no homo, unless, you know, you're down with that ). Your fellow man is first and foremost, on a macro scale, your fellow kinsman... whom ideally you live in a country populated by them. And then the rest of the world, all humans of all creeds and colors.

So I think loving your country and your people is a way to worship God.

I mean, if you don't do to others as you would have others do unto you... whats the point?

And the whole give to Caesar whats his and onto God that which is his... it's not a competition. God is not competing with your country or your fellow human beings. Other people want other things from you. Like they want your money. Or your love. Or your penis (no homo, unless, you know, you're into that). Or they want your company. Your car. Your bike... your house... your beer. Your dignity as a human being. and the govt (casear) wants his ****ing money that you owe to him.

God just wants you to be happy. And to pray. And to be a good Christian. And to love him, but not the kind of love humans may want from you... the other kind. A spiritual kind. And your devotion... but not in the same way your elected representatives want your devotion. I mean, the point is, people and governments don't compete for the same things with God. They are 2 different things buddy.

Why would loving your country and loving God be mutually exclusive in any way?

Deuce said:

Why would loving your country and loving God be mutually exclusive in any way?

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Because only one of them can come first. Are you familiar with the first (and most important) commandment?

my son had a very wise baseball coach when he was in high school and he would tell all his players that the orders of priorities in life are

1. your religion
2. your family
3. your school/job
4. baseball.......

when i first heard him say this i was a little at odds with it, the religion over family......but somehow it stuck in my mind and the more i dwelled on it, the more i saw his point..

They are in priority. God represents your life and without life you have nothing. Country represents where your family has sanctuary and without protection you have no life. Family represents the support and love of relatives and without them you are alone.

Though there are instances where the order of those can be reversed.

Deuce said:

Why would loving your country and loving God be mutually exclusive in any way?

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They don't have to be. However, the 19th and 20th centuries did see the rise of certain philosophies (Imperialist ultra-nationalism, Nazism, and Italian style Fascism in particular) which, either directly or indirectly, did seem to replace more traditional forms of religious devotion with de facto worship directed towards the power of the state.

This is intrinsically wrong.

My family first, my tribe second, my country third, and anyone else when I ****ing feel like it.

Which is exactly what my religion teaches.

edit: The gods, as befits our Elder Kin, fall somewhere between family and tribe. But family comes first. Family always comes first.

fishinRod said:

my son had a very wise baseball coach when he was in high school and he would tell all his players that the orders of priorities in life are

1. your religion
2. your family
3. your school/job
4. baseball.......

when i first heard him say this i was a little at odds with it, the religion over family......but somehow it stuck in my mind and the more i dwelled on it, the more i saw his point..

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To support this view:

When you put religion (lets say God) first then everything else falls into line.

By loving God you 'follow his commandments [love your family], and yet, his commandments aren't burdensome' (1 Timothy somewhere I believe)

fishinRod said:

my son had a very wise baseball coach when he was in high school and he would tell all his players that the orders of priorities in life are

1. your religion
2. your family
3. your school/job
4. baseball.......

when i first heard him say this i was a little at odds with it, the religion over family......but somehow it stuck in my mind and the more i dwelled on it, the more i saw his point..

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I would put country and family in the same category (2nd) if country was synonymous with "members of my community." But it's not. It's synonymous with "the government." Specifically, the federal government.

That raises some good questions. What exactly do we mean when we say "country"?

If I were religious, I wouldn't put it in the same sentnce as God...because it doesn't deserve the place of honour. And as it stands, I wouldn't put it in the same sentence as "family," either.

The OP lost me at "should".

Caesar was the chief instigator of the ape revolution in the fourth entry in the Planet of the Apes movie series, Conquest of the Planet of the Apes, and the ruler of Ape City in the fifth and final film, Battle for the Planet of the Apes.
Early LifeEdit
Caesar was born near Los Angeles in 1973. He was originally named 'Milo' after Dr. Milo, the chimpanzee scientist who had travelled back in time, with Caesar's parents Cornelius and Zira after the destruction of the Earth, to the era Taylor had originally left. His parents were fugitives on the run when Zira gave birth. To protect the child, she swapped him with the recently-born 'Salome', daughter of Heloise, a chimp in Señor Armando's circus. When Dr Hasslein killed Cornelius and Zira, he also tried to kill baby Milo, but what he actually killed was the primitive chimp baby Salome, whose body Zira dropped into the sea to prevent the discovery of the switch. Armando cared for young Milo, who very quickly learned to talk, and renamed him "Caesar" to hide his identity as the apeonauts son (the name 'Milo' would have been known from their sworn testimony; Armando might have given Caesar his new name to inspire the young ape to take command of his species). It is possible that Heloise partly raised the young chimp before Armando began raising Caesar almost as a son.

Caesar (APJ) - Planet of the Apes: The Sacred Scrolls

Quik said:

Because only one of them can come first. Are you familiar with the first (and most important) commandment?

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There's no need for either to be first unless there's some sort of conflict between the two.
There's no need for there to be a conflict between the two.

winston53660 said:

Caesar was the chief instigator of the ape revolution in the fourth entry in the Planet of the Apes movie series, Conquest of the Planet of the Apes, and the ruler of Ape City in the fifth and final film, Battle for the Planet of the Apes.
Early LifeEdit
Caesar was born near Los Angeles in 1973. He was originally named 'Milo' after Dr. Milo, the chimpanzee scientist who had travelled back in time, with Caesar's parents Cornelius and Zira after the destruction of the Earth, to the era Taylor had originally left. His parents were fugitives on the run when Zira gave birth. To protect the child, she swapped him with the recently-born 'Salome', daughter of Heloise, a chimp in Señor Armando's circus. When Dr Hasslein killed Cornelius and Zira, he also tried to kill baby Milo, but what he actually killed was the primitive chimp baby Salome, whose body Zira dropped into the sea to prevent the discovery of the switch. Armando cared for young Milo, who very quickly learned to talk, and renamed him "Caesar" to hide his identity as the apeonauts son (the name 'Milo' would have been known from their sworn testimony; Armando might have given Caesar his new name to inspire the young ape to take command of his species). It is possible that Heloise partly raised the young chimp before Armando began raising Caesar almost as a son.

Caesar (APJ) - Planet of the Apes: The Sacred Scrolls

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Certainly puts a humorous spin on "render unto Ceasar, Ceasar's due..."

Deuce said:

There's no need for either to be first unless there's some sort of conflict between the two.

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Complete fail. Refer to the thread title.

Deuce said:

There's no need for there to be a conflict between the two.

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Logically, there is. They are mutually exclusive. Only one can be first.

The Marine Corps (Chaplin) said our priorities were:

God
Country
Corps

Deuce said:

Why would loving your country and loving God be mutually exclusive in any way?

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Because loving your country would imply that somehow the way God designed humans, i.e. as a brotherhood of man to have stewardship over the whole earth is wrong, that we are NOT all equal and that one should have more allegience to people in their man made border than others.

Jesus in the parable of the samaritain clearly spoke against nationalism/patriotism.

mak2 said:

The Marine Corps (Chaplin) said our priorities were:

God
Country
Corps

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The bible says it is

God
Your Neighbor ...

Who is your neighbor?

Jesus answers in the parable of the samaritan ... i.e. it's mankind.

Meaning if you put country and corps over mankind, you're disagreeing with Christ, especially the corps since it's existance is predicated on the idea that a nation-state has the right to kill.

Lets remember that most of the current countries in the world were formed and kept together under the name of God and one single predominant religion, therefore Country and God were regarded to be the one and the same thing until quite recently (eg England<=>Anglican, Italy<=>Catholic, Iran<=>Islam, India<=>Hindu,...). Since then, with the relative ease of travel, banning of forced conversions and the increase in secularism among other factors, we have created multi cultural/faith societies where the motto God and Country does not anymore mobilise the masses. This also I would think is the reason why a dichotomy is now created between Country and God.

The message of God for this Age however the Baha'is believe to be clear:

"...Ye were created to show love one to another and not perversity and rancour. Take pride not in love for yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love for your country, but in love for all mankind..."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 138)

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So to me as a Baha'i "Country First" just sounds outdated, if anything.