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"Country First" is blasphemy

Paschendale said:
God above people? That is the credo of suicide bombers.
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Mafia members love their own families too, so I guess we're just like them. :roll:
 
Quik said:
You should put God first, well above Caesar.
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And if your god is the god of Sharia?
I always get a kick out of the assumption by so many that their god is THE god/the only god. (beyond the issue of god at all)
 
A country is a man-made entity, and countries come and go. There's nothing permanent about them. What is permanent is the human race. Religions are generally concerned with mankind, not countries. So the connecting of patriotism with religion is an effort on the part of politicians to use the religious spirit of the people to promote the welfare of the state. Sometimes that's good and sometimes not.
 
I'm not so sure about putting God first, but the notion of unalienable human rights rests upon the spiritual premise that we are all born with liberty. We don't necessarily need God to grant us that, but we do need to make a special existential distinction for it.

What many people don't understand is that the Bill of Rights is a document that makes spiritual assertions, it's not merely a piece of paper. It's a foundational premise.

We should therefore put liberty first, and not country or God. I am a free person before I am a subject to anyone else.
 
fishinRod said:
no, what im saying is that regardless of your passions, such as baseball, their are somethings that are more important and i have no problem with an authoritive figure re-affirm the morals and character that we teach our children at home. They lead off every game with a prayer, many times with the opposing team
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I understand Rod. But, what if the coach is a Muslim or a Taoist or a Buddhist or a Hindu or a Mormon or a card carrying member of the the 700 Hundred Club or a Jew? Are you equally fine and supportive a coach of any those religions leading their religious prayers to help guide your son and reinforce what you teach at home?
 
CaptinSarcastic said:
Theological experts and Christian church leaders used scripture to support slavery and miscegenation laws.
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Actually very rarely, slavery came first and some christians tried to justify it, however the emancipation movement came almost entirely from the church, you didn't need theology to make slavery, economics made that, but theology made emancipation.

I will acknowledge that it is all debatable, but the fact of the matter is the the BiBle means what people want it to mean. How else could we co e to a point where what were previously considered core teachings of the Bible such as the discouragement of the pursuit of wealth and the encouragement of giving everything to the poor have been somehow newly understood to mean the opposite.
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It's easy, you just ignore the social-gospel, right wing religious leaders do this ALL THE TIME, I suggest you read my thread on social justice and the bible http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/156925-social-justice.html, you'll notice the responces almost never cite scripture, and when they do it's only individuial advice, or not at all relevant to the subject.

All you need to do is read scripture leaving behind as many presuppositions as you can, of coarse you can twist scripture if you want, but the point is to read it plainly and unbiasedly.

If I chose to read that no authority exists except authority that God has established to mean that the government IS God, then allegiance to country IS allegiance to God.

I don't think that is a particularly good argument, but neither do I think most of the arguments for self saving interpretations of the Bible are good arguments.
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You'd have to CHOOSE to read that, and in reading it ignore the rest of scripture, so that wouldn't be reading it as it was intended to be read.

And you're right it's a terrible argument, given what that text is about, paying taxes and obaying the pax Romana ... not allegience, and NO first (or even second) century christian interepereted it thay way, since they refused any nationalistic service, to serve in the legions, to honor the emperor and son.

Show me a poor man who eschews wealth and lives BY the Bible and bears witness by the example of his own life rather ignoring the teachings and telling others how they should live, I'd be inclined to listen, but relative to the people who really get to spread their understanding of scripture, though theological experts they may be, are no more adherent than someone who reads Harry Potter books suggests we should live as they live at Hogwarts.

The Bible in practice is a mirror.
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There are plenty of people that do their best to live simply, service the cause of the poor, follow a self sacrificing life, preach the gospel (which was something Christ did and commanded), and live purely.

They just don't have T.V. Shows.
 
Risky Thicket said:
I understand Rod. But, what if the coach is a Muslim or a Taoist or a Buddhist or a Hindu or a Mormon or a card carrying member of the the 700 Hundred Club or a Jew? Are you equally fine and supportive a coach of any those religions leading their religious prayers to help guide your son and reinforce what you teach at home?
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you didnt get the part where i said "re-affirm the morals and character that we teach our children at home".....when i said we, i meant me and my wife and our children.....the coach wasnt muslim or tao, ect. so as long as he's preachin what we preach..... carry on, if a player happend to be of another religion they can skip out the prayer and if their offended they can get over it....in fact there was a kid on the soccer team whio did just that, never made a big deal over it...except during ramadan he would practice or play during daylight hours or something like that..been along time ago
 
fishinRod said:
you didnt get the part where i said "re-affirm the morals and character that we teach our children at home".....when i said we, i meant me and my wife and our children.....the coach wasnt muslim or tao, ect. so as long as he's preachin what we preach..... carry on, if a player happend to be of another religion they can skip out the prayer and if their offended they can get over it....in fact there was a kid on the soccer team whio did just that, never made a big deal over it...except during ramadan he would practice or play during daylight hours or something like that..been along time ago
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"so as long as he's preachin what we preach..... carry on"

That's what I thought. If the situation were reversed you wouldn't be so happy about it. At least you are honest about your myopia. I'll give you that.
 
Okay well this statement is a little tough to touch on because of the way every person sees differently. If the person is a very religious person and goes to church and reads the scriptures then yes, they need to always put God before anything becuase of the knowledge they have. Now if the person doesn't want anything to do with God or church and such then it's a different story becasue they don't believe in God. So in today's world, unfortunately there doesn't exist a right or wrong answer here. I know where I stand and what I believe and that is that God comes before anything! Even my own wife and children. But in another person's eyes they just might think a little more different than I do. That's what I have to say about that.
 
Quik said:
You should put God first, well above Caesar.
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Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.
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Matthew 22:21

My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.
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John 18:36

Sorry, but the words of a much wiser man then I am clearly say that his (and God's) power is not of this planet or it's countries, but in a higher place.
 
Risky Thicket said:
"so as long as he's preachin what we preach..... carry on"

That's what I thought. If the situation were reversed you wouldn't be so happy about it. At least you are honest about your myopia. I'll give you that.
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thats exactly right...anything wrong with it?....im not going to apologize for nor hide what i believe just because somebody might get all butt hurt about it. You've heard the saying "birds of a feather flock together"...........i cant understand why some people get all uptight because a group of people who have something in common and get together and share it..........as far as the situation being reversed, i wouldnt be unhappy, id just not participate...ya see its not a big deal.....people who get offended so easy are looking to be offended.........they had three coaches, 18 players and a bat girl..they all bevlieved in God and they prayed together..it was simple and they all enjoyed it...
 
Quik said:
You should put God first, well above Caesar.
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As a Baha'i, I believe that the purpose of religion is to unite mankind.

Here a few quotes from Baha'i holy scriptures: "Any religion that becomes the cause of fanatism, violence and war rather than peace and unity is no true religion."
"Praised is not he who loves his fatherland, but he who loves mankind in its entirety."
"The three biggest tin gods people today are worshipping instead of God are racism, nationalism and communism."
 
I believe that God takes precedence over country. If the country made my faith and beliefs illegal it is more important for me to live out my faith over complying with what the government says. Specifically for Christianity, the early church was heavily persecuted and many church leaders, disciples, and apostles were put to death for their faith. Even today many Christians are persecuted around the world with much of this happening at the level of a nation's legal laws. In such cases Faith > country.
 
If your reading of scripture tells you that allegiance to your religion is a big deal, you're either reading it wrong or you need to change faiths.
 
digsbe said:
I believe that God takes precedence over country. If the country made my faith and beliefs illegal it is more important for me to live out my faith over complying with what the government says. Specifically for Christianity, the early church was heavily persecuted and many church leaders, disciples, and apostles were put to death for their faith. Even today many Christians are persecuted around the world with much of this happening at the level of a nation's legal laws. In such cases Faith > country.
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And if your country started to persecute you (or any other) religion, then you should either emigrate, or see what you can do to change that government.

This has nothing to do with religion, but about human rights.
 
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