What is the point of Heaven?

Goshin said:

Why not? They are in humanity's present... and as you say, in humanity's present they have found a way to coexist with science and "rational" thought. There is no reason to suppose that religions will not continue to adapt to changing times, conditions, cultures and technologies and carry right along. Nothing prevents a religious person from working in a chemistry lab or helping design a spacecraft or etc.... unless they belong to some particularly anti-tech sect like the Amish.

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I can only look at patterns in human history and extrapolate. Societies generally become more rational, more liberal, and less grounded in theological principles over time.

Amadeus said:

I can only look at patterns in human history and extrapolate. Societies generally become more rational, more liberal, and less grounded in theological principles over time.

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It might seem that way on the surface, but if you study more carefully you will find that it is more complex and typically cyclic. Periods of greater secularism alternate with periods of greater religiosity, and continue thus.

Goshin said:

It might seem that way on the surface, but if you study more carefully you will find that it is more complex and typically cyclic. Periods of greater secularism alternate with periods of greater religiosity, and continue thus.

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Well, Christianity is a relatively liberal religion, and it has been interpreted in ways that make it more liberal than it was intended to be to accommodate the progression of society. It's not impossible for Christianity to exist into infinity, but it's more likely that most people will just forego religion entirely.

Amadeus said:

I believe that the point of life is human progression, which is why I've adopted values and philosophies which are forward-thinking

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Wonderful or as my Australians friends would say: "good on ya mate"!

I hope you can take two more quotations from Baha'u'llah and I will then try to stop with quotations, at least for a while!

"All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth."

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and in the daily obligatory prayer that is read by Baha'is everyday:

"I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee..."

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So in an ideal world it seems that both are required, ie to know&worship the Source of our being and also to improve the world around us. Given the last quote however, it seems that the betterment of the world is equated with the worship of God, something that Baha'u'llah has explicitly written and confirmed elsewhere in his writings (ie work performed in the spirit of service to God is regarded as worship).

So here you have a religious perspective for your consideration. After all with a name Amadeus ("love of God") it would be ironic if you would remain an anti-theist!

mbadii said:

So here you have a religious perspective for your consideration. After all with a name Amadeus ("love of God") it would be ironic if you would be an anti-theist!

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Thanks for the quotes. And you should see my real name. It is even more theistic, or at least equally so.

Amadeus said:

I believe that the point of life is human progression, which is why I've adopted values and philosophies which are forward-thinking. Some people believe that humanity is best served by stagnation, the absence of progression, and attempt to prevent our species from achieving its full potential through theological conservatism.

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Human progression for what?

For all our "progression" and "forward-thinking" in the western democratic societies - thanks to secularism - how do you explain the alarming trend of homicides/suicides that seems to come along with it? Parents killing their own children/families before killing themselves? Strangers randomly taking out as many lives as they can before killing themselves?

I find it the height of hypocrisy when we champion saving animal species from extinction, and make such a big commotion out of baby seal hunts....and yet we turn around and de-humanize our unborn and give license to their slaughter.

I think the current clime does gives a hint of how life would be without the existence of God. If we all know that the life we live now is the only chance we'll ever get....why shouldn't I put myself ahead of others? I would make it a point that it would all be about me, centered on me. I should be able to do whatever I want to make the most out of this one chance at life.

Everyday news items say a lot. Let's look at what's happening to our youth today....I don't think we can call it "progression."
We're actually regressing.

Goshin said:

Why not? They are in humanity's present... and as you say, in humanity's present they have found a way to coexist with science and "rational" thought. There is no reason to suppose that religions will not continue to adapt to changing times, conditions, cultures and technologies and carry right along. Nothing prevents a religious person from working in a chemistry lab or helping design a spacecraft or etc.... unless they belong to some particularly anti-tech sect like the Amish.


Perhaps you should be more concerned with the anti-tech, anti-progress attitudes and beliefs of the neo-Luddites and more extreme Green factions...

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There's a good bit of the neo-Luddite movement in the radical environmentalist end of the spectrum, that has nothing to do with religion at all.

Conservatism is nothing more or less than the desire to preserve what works. Progressivism is nothing more or less than the desire to fix what is broken. Every person is both absolutely conservative, and absolutely progressive in their own minds. Nobody wants to change what works, and nobody would refrain from fixing what is clearly broken.

What causes conflict between progress and stagnation is subjective reasoning. When our values conflict, we are forced to decide in favor of one value, to the detriment of the other. The decision is based on completely subjective reasoning regarding which value is more important. In the abortion debate, pro-life advocates place a higher value on the life of the fetus, and pro choice advocates place higher priority over the liberty of the mother. Adopting the pro-life stance does not mean that the liberty of the mother means nothing, just as adopting the pro choice stance does not dictate that the life of the child is completely devoid of value. It just means that subjective reasoning causes each of us to choose which of our values to sacrifice in order to preserve the other.

When a law is changed, the progressives that advocated in favor of that law immediately become conservatives, because they want to keep that law, and the conservatives against that change immediately become progressives, because they want to fix what they see as broken in society.

tosca1 said:

Human progression for what?

For all our "progression" and "forward-thinking" in the western democratic societies - thanks to secularism - how do you explain the alarming trend of homicides/suicides that seems to come along with it? Parents killing their own children/families before killing themselves? Strangers randomly taking out as many lives as they can before killing themselves?

I find it the height of hypocrisy when we champion saving animal species from extinction, and make such a big commotion out of baby seal hunts....and yet we turn around and de-humanize our unborn and give license to their slaughter.

I think the current clime does gives a hint of how life would be without the existence of God. If we all know that the life we live now is the only chance we'll ever get....why shouldn't I put myself ahead of others? I would make it a point that it would all be about me, centered on me. I should be able to do whatever I want to make the most out of this one chance at life.

Everyday news items say a lot. Let's look at what's happening to our youth today....I don't think we can call it "progression."
We're actually regressing.

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Before the age of radio, people were mostly unaware of the violence occuring outside of their community, except for the wars which were frequent in the Christian world. My feeling is that the media focuses on these depressing events in order to get viewers and higher ratings. The latest news is that gun violence in the U.S. has gone down in the past 20 years. So we are manipulated into thinking that murder and crime are getting worse. If you have evidence otherwise, let me know. The Founders of the U.S. purposely did not establish a state religion because of the history in Europe of oppression when the church and kings combined to dominate society. The results have been increased rights for women and minorities, a greater effort to educate children, greater freedom of thought which has led to scientific advancement. You would not have wanted to live under the Christian kings of Europe. The History Channel has done a great job of exposing the moral corruption of some of the kings of England. They created their own rules of morality and the common people were like their property. So secularism has had its benefits, and being able to share ideas on these forums is one of them. Christianity really has had 2,000 years to advance society and civilization and we have the results in our history books.

Harlan said:

Before the age of radio, people were mostly unaware of the violence occuring outside of their community, except for the wars which were frequent in the Christian world. My feeling is that the media focuses on these depressing events in order to get viewers and higher ratings.

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That's what they said about cancer - when someone comments how a lot of people are dying of cancer. They said we are more aware because of advanced communication. Really? I don't think so....

Anyway, I'm talking about the particular violence of homicides/suicides. 50 years ago, those were not your everyday occurrence (we've got newspapers and radios and tvs in those days too - though they may not be HDTV)....hardly anything this rampant. What is big news now would've been MEGA-news in those days, ratings-wise too, since people were not as disensitized with violence then compared today.....so news of this type would've been truly shocking, and that would be an understatement.

The latest news is that gun violence in the U.S. has gone down in the past 20 years. So we are manipulated into thinking that murder and crime are getting worse. If you have evidence otherwise, let me know. The Founders of the U.S. purposely did not establish a state religion because of the history in Europe of oppression when the church and kings combined to dominate society. The results have been increased rights for women and minorities, a greater effort to educate children, greater freedom of thought which has led to scientific advancement. You would not have wanted to live under the Christian kings of Europe. The History Channel has done a great job of exposing the moral corruption of some of the kings of England. They created their own rules of morality and the common people were like their property. So secularism has had its benefits, and being able to share ideas on these forums is one of them. Christianity really has had 2,000 years to advance society and civilization and we have the results in our history books.

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Stats are suspect this days. They're usually agenda-driven.

Furthermore, how many youths in those days commit heinous crimes?
How many youths in those days are made of strong character that they don't melt-down at the first sign of bullying or criticisms.
How many youths today would feel empathy towards the bullied (and side with the "underdog") instead of joining the bullies? Meanness of spirit is prevalent among the youth today....don't tell me societal environment doesn't have anything to do with it! Most parents of these youths today would've been youths themselves when all society started shifting to secularism.

Amadeus said:

Well, Christianity is a relatively liberal religion, and it has been interpreted in ways that make it more liberal than it was intended to be to accommodate the progression of society. It's not impossible for Christianity to exist into infinity, but it's more likely that most people will just forego religion entirely.

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It's the otherway around, Liberalism came out of Christianity .... Christianity at it's core (when you take out the political twisting of the faith) is a universalist and egalitarian religion, that's why liberalism developed in places where christian thought was prominent, especially after the reformation where the core of christianity, i.e. the gospel, was placed as more important than the church.

tosca1 said:

That's what they said about cancer - when someone comments how a lot of people are dying of cancer. They said we are more aware because of advanced communication. Really? I don't think so....

Anyway, I'm talking about the particular violence of homicides/suicides. 50 years ago, those were not your everyday occurrence (we've got newspapers and radios and tvs in those days too - though they may not be HDTV)....hardly anything this rampant. What is big news now would've been MEGA-news in those days, ratings-wise too, since people were not as disensitized with violence then compared today.....so news of this type would've been truly shocking, and that would be an understatement.

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50 years ago isn't a good example, 50 years ago in the United States we had a progressive, much more equal and prosperous society (obviously not racially), i.e. it was the godlen age, go back 100 years, or 200, or more, go back to when scalping an indian was considered ok, where domestic violence was ok, where slavery was ok, where tourture was ok and so on.

Stats are suspect this days. They're usually agenda-driven.

Furthermore, how many youths in those days commit heinous crimes?
How many youths in those days are made of strong character that they don't melt-down at the first sign of bullying or criticisms.
How many youths today would feel empathy towards the bullied (and side with the "underdog") instead of joining the bullies? Meanness of spirit is prevalent among the youth today....don't tell me societal environment doesn't have anything to do with it! Most parents of these youths today would've been youths themselves when all society started shifting to secularism.

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Of coarse you have to look carefully at stats, but stats are the most reliable measure we have.

1. Many youths did heinous crimes, the internet however has made it easier to do those crimes.
2. It's not that they didn't melt down, they just couldn't show it, or they killed themselves, or lived tourtured lives.1
3. I'm not sure ...

The problem I see with secularists, not all secularists, but specifically atheist secularists, is that they assume moral value's and certain societal values without considering where they come from.

Amadeus said:

I have a hard time believing that a genuinely good person could enjoy Heaven, unless they were transformed into some sort of orgasmic, semi-catatonic entity. In other words, a pathetic, purposeless state of existence. Is that really the best the universe has to offer? Did we crawl out of the muck and go through millions of years of evolution for a permanent heroine fix?

I need some Christian input to set me straight.

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I don't know of a source that gives the level of detail you seek.

tosca1 said:

That's what they said about cancer - when someone comments how a lot of people are dying of cancer. They said we are more aware because of advanced communication. Really? I don't think so....

Anyway, I'm talking about the particular violence of homicides/suicides. 50 years ago, those were not your everyday occurrence (we've got newspapers and radios and tvs in those days too - though they may not be HDTV)....hardly anything this rampant. What is big news now would've been MEGA-news in those days, ratings-wise too, since people were not as disensitized with violence then compared today.....so news of this type would've been truly shocking, and that would be an understatement.



Stats are suspect this days. They're usually agenda-driven.

Furthermore, how many youths in those days commit heinous crimes?
How many youths in those days are made of strong character that they don't melt-down at the first sign of bullying or criticisms.
How many youths today would feel empathy towards the bullied (and side with the "underdog") instead of joining the bullies? Meanness of spirit is prevalent among the youth today....don't tell me societal environment doesn't have anything to do with it! Most parents of these youths today would've been youths themselves when all society started shifting to secularism.

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I understand what you're saying about statistics.....but, if you don't base your ideas and feelings about the condition of society on statistics or studies, then all you're left with are your own prejudices and biases. Watching 24 hour news will depress anyone. They only report, over and over, what's bad going on. We didn't have 24 hour news 50 years ago, and the news we got was more straight-forward. The feeling then was that we were all going to die in a nuclear holocaust. That seemed very likely. I've lived in Asian countries and Pacific islands. For some reason, the violence there was much less than in the U.S. So we can't generalize that the other countries of the world have degenerated morally to the extent that the U.S. has. Asian families are still very close and strong. And these are generally not Christian people. They're Buddhist, Muslim or Hindu. These people sacrifice for each other so that their kids can have a better education and become good people. Why has the U.S. become so different?

Harlan said:

I understand what you're saying about statistics.....but, if you don't base your ideas and feelings about the condition of society on statistics or studies, then all you're left with are your own prejudices and biases. Watching 24 hour news will depress anyone. They only report, over and over, what's bad going on. We didn't have 24 hour news 50 years ago, and the news we got was more straight-forward. The feeling then was that we were all going to die in a nuclear holocaust. That seemed very likely. I've lived in Asian countries and Pacific islands. For some reason, the violence there was much less than in the U.S. So we can't generalize that the other countries of the world have degenerated morally to the extent that the U.S. has. Asian families are still very close and strong. And these are generally not Christian people. They're Buddhist, Muslim or Hindu. These people sacrifice for each other so that their kids can have a better education and become good people. Why has the U.S. become so different?

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I said, statistics are suspect. I didn't say we shouldn't use stats as one of the basis for our decisions. One ought to investigate a stat before taking it as an accurate factual conclusion - because if you base your conclusion on an inaccurate information, then basically your decision is founded on shaky ground. Which doesn't make for a sensible decision.

Which also means your decision could be based on biased and prejudiced information - and if so, it makes your decision founded on biased and prejudiced information. Not good.


News is news. Whether it's being repeatedly reported 24 hours a days, it doesn't change the fact that Columbine and Sandy Hook massacre did indeed occur. Nothing changed with the factual events.

The viewer gets disensitized about it after a while from repeated bombardment of same info (which they cover from every possible angle). I wouldn't be surprised if any ambitious news correspondent tried to get an "eye witnesss" dog's version of the event(s). There is also the element of hypocrisy when you watch these news casters cover these tragedies intensively.

Since you brought up nuclear fears....why do you think the UN choose and decide what nation will be allowed to have nuclear capabilities? You think that's not motivated by fear? Have you watched the coverage of North Korea lately? You think there are no survivalists busily stocking their bunkers?
The kind of near-panic fear displayed in the 50's is not the same to the way we react now because perhaps we're disensitized to that horror - not only from the 24 hour news, but from dozens of post-apocalyptic movies we see....and videos we play.
Have you seen The Road? How many would bother wanting to survive a nuclear attack and live in that kind of condition? Besides, life is so busy as it is compared to the 50's....who's got the time to plan and build a bunker? It's hard enough to find time tweeting, never mind building bunkers! :mrgreen: