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Statism is a religion

Quik

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It carries basically all the same signs as any other religion. Faith in state, faith in government, the (unfounded, unwarranted) belief in the necessity of the state for life to continue on. People believe all these things without a single shred of evidence to support it.

You have your religious leaders like the President, Congressmen, or other government bureaucrats.

You have religious institutions like schools, police stations, and the military.

You have a blind faith/acceptance that this is the only way possible.

Should statism be considered a religion?
 
It carries basically all the same signs as any other religion. Faith in state, faith in government, the (unfounded, unwarranted) belief in the necessity of the state for life to continue on. People believe all these things without a single shred of evidence to support it.

You have your religious leaders like the President, Congressmen, or other government bureaucrats.

You have religious institutions like schools, police stations, and the military.

You have a blind faith/acceptance that this is the only way possible.

Should statism be considered a religion?

I'm not sure about that, but people sure do worship at the trough of government benefits and have blind faith that government will take care of them from birth to death.
 
Yes, it is. So my right to be a statist, and to practice statism, is constitutionally protected.
 
I'm not sure about that, but people sure do worship at the trough of government benefits and have blind faith that government will take care of them from birth to death.

Good evening, Pero. :2wave:

Lots of people do, and good luck to them when the gravy train stops...as it eventually must, due to economic reasons alone! Then what? Greece and countries like that provide a glimpse of a possible future, and I find that both sad and unsettling to think about! :shock:
 
Good evening, Pero. :2wave:

Lots of people do, and good luck to them when the gravy train stops...as it eventually must, due to economic reasons alone! Then what? Greece and countries like that provide a glimpse of a possible future, and I find that both sad and unsettling to think about! :shock:

It will happen, no one seems willing to sacrifice a little today for a better America and a sound financial nation. It seems the vast majority of the people want 100% of everything and let future generations fend for themselves.
 
It carries basically all the same signs as any other religion. Faith in state, faith in government, the (unfounded, unwarranted) belief in the necessity of the state for life to continue on. People believe all these things without a single shred of evidence to support it.

You have your religious leaders like the President, Congressmen, or other government bureaucrats.

You have religious institutions like schools, police stations, and the military.

You have a blind faith/acceptance that this is the only way possible.

Should statism be considered a religion?
I recall when, back in the late seventies, representatives from all the worlds' religions gathered at a global conference to, among other things, decide the question "what constitutes a religion".

Their conclusion was that to be a religion, a philosophy must include the following two tenets: 1) a belief in souls (in the typical religious sense), and 2) a belief in a before- and/or after- life.

It was interesting to me back then that a belief in God was not considered a prerequisite tenet to make a philosophy a religion. I guess that lets us print "in God we trust" on our money without violating "separation of church and state".

Regardless, statism, as you falsely implicate via erroneous description, does not incorporate a belief in souls and a belief in before/after -life.

Thus statism is simply and obviously not a religion, and would never ever be considered such by U.S. statutes.
 
If anything should be considered "statism", it should be that brand of libertarianism practiced by overeager kids whereby certain buzz terms replace thought, where Lewrockwell dot com acts as their bible and where Ayn Rand has been deified.

Lots of these youngsters like to use the word "statism". It gives them cred among their little peeps.
 
Statism is one of those phrases that libertarians like to throw around to attack their opponents with. It tends to get tossed at anyone who doesn't adhere to the "government isn't the solution, it's the problem" mantra. Fascists and authoritarians are the only ones, I think, who actually elevate faith in the state to a religious level. People who think that obedience is more important than what they're obeying. In the real world, government is a tool, like any other. It can be used to benefit the people, and secure a better future for the next generation, or it can be used to benefit a few powerful people, at the expense of everyone else. Stepping aside and doing nothing, and allowing those people to exercise their power with impunity, is little different than actively helping them. As a socialist, I fall firmly into the former camp. Government should function like employees of the people, and work to benefit everyone, not just the rich and the powerful.
 
I recall when, back in the late seventies, representatives from all the worlds' religions gathered at a global conference to, among other things, decide the question "what constitutes a religion".

Their conclusion was that to be a religion, a philosophy must include the following two tenets: 1) a belief in souls (in the typical religious sense), and 2) a belief in a before- and/or after- life.

It was interesting to me back then that a belief in God was not considered a prerequisite tenet to make a philosophy a religion. I guess that lets us print "in God we trust" on our money without violating "separation of church and state".

Regardless, statism, as you falsely implicate via erroneous description, does not incorporate a belief in souls and a belief in before/after -life.

Thus statism is simply and obviously not a religion, and would never ever be considered such by U.S. statutes.

What is a "soul." Did they define it?
 
I have wondered for a while where the "Gooberment bad" mantra came from. Makes sense.
Statism is one of those phrases that libertarians like to throw around to attack their opponents with. It tends to get tossed at anyone who doesn't adhere to the "government isn't the solution, it's the problem" mantra. Fascists and authoritarians are the only ones, I think, who actually elevate faith in the state to a religious level. People who think that obedience is more important than what they're obeying. In the real world, government is a tool, like any other. It can be used to benefit the people, and secure a better future for the next generation, or it can be used to benefit a few powerful people, at the expense of everyone else. Stepping aside and doing nothing, and allowing those people to exercise their power with impunity, is little different than actively helping them. As a socialist, I fall firmly into the former camp. Government should function like employees of the people, and work to benefit everyone, not just the rich and the powerful.
 
Statism is one of those phrases that libertarians like to throw around to attack their opponents with. It tends to get tossed at anyone who doesn't adhere to the "government isn't the solution, it's the problem" mantra. Fascists and authoritarians are the only ones, I think, who actually elevate faith in the state to a religious level. People who think that obedience is more important than what they're obeying. In the real world, government is a tool, like any other. It can be used to benefit the people, and secure a better future for the next generation, or it can be used to benefit a few powerful people, at the expense of everyone else. Stepping aside and doing nothing, and allowing those people to exercise their power with impunity, is little different than actively helping them. As a socialist, I fall firmly into the former camp. Government should function like employees of the people, and work to benefit everyone, not just the rich and the powerful.

And yet, every government we have every seen in the history of mankind has done just that, work for the benefit of the rich and powerful. Thus, for one to BELIEVE that the government works for the people requires a great deal of faith in the system. Blind faith, without evidence, I might add.

The rich and powerful utterly depend on the state to maintain their power structures. Without the state, corporations could not exist in their current form. With nobody to enforce their ridiculous "patents" and "intellectual property" they would have to actually produce something of value.

Gardener said:
If anything should be considered "statism", it should be that brand of libertarianism practiced by overeager kids whereby certain buzz terms replace thought, where Lewrockwell dot com acts as their bible and where Ayn Rand has been deified.

Lots of these youngsters like to use the word "statism". It gives them cred among their little peeps.

Ayn Rand was a statist though. An authoritarian one at that.
 
What is a "soul." Did they define it?
The basic religious "definition" of soul is that our soul is the non-material part of us that either lived before we became material and/or will continue living after our material body dies. There was no consensus on who/what created the soul in a religion; it could be God, the universe, a manifestation of physics, whatever.

The religious "defintion" is considered by some to be real and by some to be a symbolic metaphor for the material part of us that initially registers feelings in a condition where the mind is so dominant those feelings are barely felt or strangely felt, as if they were "spiritually zephyrus".

It is interesting too that the representatives so deciding required both 1) a belief in souls (in the religious sense) and 2) a belief in before and/or after -life, as it would seem the two are mutually inclusive. Perhaps they were just being redundantly emphatic or they were specifying that the presence of a newly created soul must have an after-life, as if the philosophy allowed for a newly created soul to die with its material body, while other souls lived before or after material life, it wasn't really a religion.
 
The basic religious "definition" of soul is that our soul is the non-material part of us that either lived before we became material and/or will continue living after our material body dies. There was no consensus on who/what created the soul in a religion; it could be God, the universe, a manifestation of physics, whatever.

The religious "defintion" is considered by some to be real and by some to be a symbolic metaphor for the material part of us that initially registers feelings in a condition where the mind is so dominant those feelings are barely felt or strangely felt, as if they were "spiritually zephyrus".

It is interesting too that the representatives so deciding required both 1) a belief in souls (in the religious sense) and 2) a belief in before and/or after -life, as it would seem the two are mutually inclusive. Perhaps they were just being redundantly emphatic or they were specifying that the presence of a newly created soul must have an after-life, as if the philosophy allowed for a newly created soul to die with its material body, while other souls lived before or after material life, it wasn't really a religion.

What did they mean by "living." Like for example a legacy, or an institution, could "live on" long after the person dies.
 
What did they mean by "living." Like for example a legacy, or an institution, could "live on" long after the person dies.
I sense your questions are disengenuous.

If you're going to compare a political philosophy to a religion one would think you'd know the particulars of the two in which you're creating a comparison.

You would then know that the religious definition of a soul is that it is literally a spiritual entity that is alive.

If you need more than that, you need to do more research, to say the least.

If you're simply being obtuse and argumentative, then you're wasting my time.

I sense you know exactly what's being talked about.
 
And yet, every government we have every seen in the history of mankind has done just that, work for the benefit of the rich and powerful. Thus, for one to BELIEVE that the government works for the people requires a great deal of faith in the system. Blind faith, without evidence, I might add.

The rich and powerful utterly depend on the state to maintain their power structures. Without the state, corporations could not exist in their current form. With nobody to enforce their ridiculous "patents" and "intellectual property" they would have to actually produce something of value.

You are correct in that pretty much every state is dominated by a powerful minority who that use their position to enrich themselves. However, you have not considered the alternatives. The absence of government does not lead to a libertarian utopia, it leads to chaos, warlords and a general decrease in the quality of life. There is a reason why every single wealthy and peaceful nation in existence has a reasonably powerful central government.

Statism is not religion, because it does not require faith. The fact it is possible for us to have this discussion comes in part because the United States government chose to fund the internet. Once can easily observe the tangible benefits of central government just by looking out your window. There is of course a price to pay for handing over authority to the government, but in a functioning democratic system it is well worth paying.
 
The absence of government does not lead to a libertarian utopia, it leads to chaos, warlords and a general decrease in the quality of life.

Unsupported assertion.

rathi said:
There is a reason why every single wealthy and peaceful nation in existence has a reasonably powerful central government.

Yes, the goal was power, not happiness for the citizens.

rathi said:
Statism is not religion, because it does not require faith. The fact it is possible for us to have this discussion comes in part because the United States government chose to fund the internet. Once can easily observe the tangible benefits of central government just by looking out your window. There is of course a price to pay for handing over authority to the government, but in a functioning democratic system it is well worth paying.

So it is your belief that without the US government the internet would not exist? Interesting. If Edison didn't invent the incandescent bulb does that mean we wouldn't have lighting? I'm just trying to understand your reasoning here. It's similar logic that they use in patent laws -- that if somebody did invent or discover something at some particular point in time that means it never would have been invented/discovered. I guess if Columbus didn't discover America everyone would still be living on the other side of the Atlantic... [/preschool logic]
 
Unsupported assertion.]

I'll pick modern day Somalia as an example. If you disagree, why don't find me a counter example of a peaceful wealthy nation lacking in a central government.

Yes, the goal was power, not happiness for the citizens.

The benefit of democracy is that to obtain power, the government has to keep the citizens reasonably happy.

So it is your belief that without the US government the internet would not exist? Interesting. If Edison didn't invent the incandescent bulb does that mean we wouldn't have lighting? I'm just trying to understand your reasoning here. It's similar logic that they use in patent laws -- that if somebody did invent or discover something at some particular point in time that means it never would have been invented/discovered. I guess if Columbus didn't discover America everyone would still be living on the other side of the Atlantic... [/preschool logic]

Only a government would be willing to spend 20 years funding a piece of technology before it became usable. Its probable that someone else would have built the internet if the U.S had not, but it would have required the support of a nation state. Private corporations don't spend resources on concepts that have a return rate measured in decades and risks so high they can't even be quantified.
 
I'll pick modern day Somalia as an example. If you disagree, why don't find me a counter example of a peaceful wealthy nation lacking in a central government.

Anarchy in Somalia - Robert P. Murphy - Mises Daily

rathi said:
The benefit of democracy is that to obtain power, the government has to keep the citizens reasonably happy.

This is not a necessary prerequisite. That the people may or may not be happy can and often is independent of the existence of the government.

rathi said:
Only a government would be willing to spend 20 years funding a piece of technology before it became usable. Its probable that someone else would have built the internet if the U.S had not, but it would have required the support of a nation state. Private corporations don't spend resources on concepts that have a return rate measured in decades and risks so high they can't even be quantified.

Unsupported assertion. The internet could simply have followed a different path than it did under the US government.
 
Anarchy in Somalia - Robert P. Murphy - Mises Daily



This is not a necessary prerequisite. That the people may or may not be happy can and often is independent of the existence of the government.



Unsupported assertion. The internet could simply have followed a different path than it did under the US government.

It is my understanding that the Internet for official government use was to replace the old AUTODIN system which replaced the old Teletypes systems and relays.Communications in the military is amazing these days.
 
It carries basically all the same signs as any other religion. Faith in state, faith in government, the (unfounded, unwarranted) belief in the necessity of the state for life to continue on. People believe all these things without a single shred of evidence to support it.

You have your religious leaders like the President, Congressmen, or other government bureaucrats.

You have religious institutions like schools, police stations, and the military.

You have a blind faith/acceptance that this is the only way possible.

Should statism be considered a religion?

your holy values are never abused under such a system
 

For the same of argument, lets pretend that Somali is actually better than other African dictatorships. Is that really the standard for which you want your political philosophy to be considered a "success"? The fact remains that you can find no examples of a stateless society that are reasonable places to live in the modern era.

This is not a necessary prerequisite. That the people may or may not be happy can and often is independent of the existence of the government.

In a functioning democracy, the absolute requirement for retaining power requires not pissing off the majority at a bare minimum. The American government can only screw its citizens on issues they remain apathetic about, which is why copyright is such a disaster.

Unsupported assertion. The internet could simply have followed a different path than it did under the US government.

If you want to claim it could follow a different path, name me one private entity that would be willing to fund a project that would take 20 years to mature that relied on completely untested speculative technology with no clear revenue stream even once completed.
 
So it is your belief that without the US government the internet would not exist? Interesting. If Edison didn't invent the incandescent bulb does that mean we wouldn't have lighting? I'm just trying to understand your reasoning here. It's similar logic that they use in patent laws -- that if somebody did invent or discover something at some particular point in time that means it never would have been invented/discovered. I guess if Columbus didn't discover America everyone would still be living on the other side of the Atlantic... [/preschool logic]

This is a stupid argument.

Couple things wrong here. The electric light bulb, even in its early stages was a superior product from the alternative, the kerosene lamp. It didn't need to be refueled. It didn't give off smells or gases, it didn't require you to store dangerous fuel. Aside from the availability of electricity (which was expanding), it was a much better choice for consumers. The commercialization and profitability weren't going to be measured in decades, but a few years.

The internet, however, is something very, very different. I'd actually argue past Rathi and flat up state we would not have the internet without the US government. At least how have it now. The internet was designed primarily as a communications tool for military use. It was never intended to be a profit generator. The costs to build and maintain this system are immense. And it took decades to get the point where private industry actually stood up and said "hey, this is a good idea." While private industry has created their own intra-networks, they never would have promoted the largely open system we have now. And considering how much Russia, the Chinese and the Europeans love to control things via government, if they had backed it, they would have made it very restrictive compared to what we have now. We would have gotten SOMETHING, it just would be smaller, slower, less efficient and far more regulated then what we have now, and thus far less useful. Thus, back to my point that we would not have the internet without the US government.

And to build on Rathi's argument, central governments can provide benefits. For instance, the orphan drug program. There isn't a market for those drugs because the number of people who need it is simply too small to recoup costs. Yet central government provides research and money for it and thus we get drugs to ease or completely cure diseases. Furthermore, the Modern State of South Korea is essentially a central government set of 5 year plans. The economy of South Korea, which I last checked was either 11 or 17th largest is directly due to the steps that the central government under President (but really dictator) Park's administration took.

And if you need ANOTHER example, the entire road way system. When private companies and individuals set up road ways, they do so in small amounts and charge people plenty to use them. The impact upon the economy is immense. If every time you cross a half mile of road way and had to pay $8 like you do on the San Francisco Golden Gate Bridge, shipping basically wouldn't have taken off and exports would languish or be built directly by the docks. Huge amounts of crops would never get planted, or food prices would be crazy high to recoup the transportation costs. The highway system in America (and frankly everywhere) exists because of government. Private industry (Rightfully) can never recoup the costs. Thus, they don't do it.
 
1. Statism isn't really defined, is it patriotism? What is Statism?

2. taking part in collective society isn't at all "religion," it's just ... well ... taking part in it so you can survive and be neighborly and live in a decent society.

3. I'd say patriotism is somewhat a religion, since you believe that because you're parents happened to pop you out on a certain piece of land that that piece of land is somehow better, and yo ushould be loyal to people on that peice of land rather than another (not to mention that patriotism is unchristian since it goes directly against christian universalism), but even that isn't a religion, you're making a piece of land or a government transcendant, i.e. it's intrinsically good.

4. No one IS a statist ... it's just a derrogatory term people throw around, on both the left and the right, it doesn't really mean anything.
 
It carries basically all the same signs as any other religion. Faith in state, faith in government, the (unfounded, unwarranted) belief in the necessity of the state for life to continue on. People believe all these things without a single shred of evidence to support it.

You have your religious leaders like the President, Congressmen, or other government bureaucrats.

You have religious institutions like schools, police stations, and the military.

You have a blind faith/acceptance that this is the only way possible.

Should statism be considered a religion?

Yeah its a religion, who the hell cares?
 
For the same of argument, lets pretend that Somali is actually better than other African dictatorships. Is that really the standard for which you want your political philosophy to be considered a "success"? The fact remains that you can find no examples of a stateless society that are reasonable places to live in the modern era.

This does not demonstrate your point. Just because corrupt governments have taken root on every geographic location of the Earth doesn't somehow mean that the world would be worse off without them. That's like saying venereal disease is a good thing because you can't name a society that lacks it.

rathi said:
In a functioning democracy, the absolute requirement for retaining power requires not pissing off the majority at a bare minimum. The American government can only screw its citizens on issues they remain apathetic about, which is why copyright is such a disaster.

This makes sense in theory but falls apart in real life. In reality you have a government which can control the media and manipulate public opinion, deciding which issues are important (chic fil a, VAWA) and which aren't (domestic spying, internet spying, war). An extremely disproportionate amount of time is spent on petty issues that distract people away from their continuously eroding civil liberties.

That happiness is maintained is almost completely independent of the existence of the government. The government doesn't "keep us happy." We are happy DESPITE the misery that they create.

rathi said:
If you want to claim it could follow a different path, name me one private entity that would be willing to fund a project that would take 20 years to mature that relied on completely untested speculative technology with no clear revenue stream even once completed.

Dutch East India Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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