Losing Religion? Perhaps not...

Interesting article... I think he's onto something here.

Recent research

indicates that the number of people who do not consider themselves a part of an organized religion is steadily on the rise.
Interestingly enough, though the number of those religiously unaffiliated is increasing, there is little to no trend in the number of those who express atheist or agnostic beliefs. People aren’t saying they don’t believe in God. They’re saying they don’t believe in religion. They are not rejecting Christ. They are rejecting the church.
This begs the question, “Why are we losing our religion?”

The growing number of people who don’t identify as part of an organized religion speaks to an increasing wariness of labels in our culture.​

Some may be losing their religion, but I challenge the notion that faith in general is waning.
I believe, instead, the trend of people who don’t identify as part of an organized religion speaks to an increasing wariness of labels in our culture. Those labels carry baggage for many who might have been hurt by the Church or let down by religion.

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Read more: Christians, here's why we're losing our religion | Fox News

And a very important point he makes...

You see, religion alone can only take a person so far. Religion can make us nice, but only Christ can make us new. Religion focuses on outward behavior. Relationship is an inward transformation. Religion focuses on what I do, while relationship centers on what Jesus did. Religion is about me. Relationship is about Jesus.
In order to become a new person, we need Christ. Only through an active ongoing relationship with Jesus can we become transformed and overcome the labels that bind us.

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I think this is a good thing, it demonstrates more people are actually considering their religion, rather than taking it as standard.

organized religion was not for me. I took it private. I'm much more comfortable that way.

One step at a time...

Also, there most certainly are a lot more self-described atheists and agnostics (who are mostly atheists but don't understand the terminology) in the US than there used to be. In fact, the study cited in the article specifically precluded atheist or agnostic as options in their survey, so it has nothing to say on the subject.

Meanwhile, the 2012 Pew study shows that, despite divvying people up with various different ways of saying it, shows a little over 10% of the country as holding a secular, non-theistic position. That's almost double what the 2008 Gallup poll showed. Part of it is that people really are abandoning theism, and part is that the non-theists are more able to reveal themselves without fear of discrimination.

The Fox-ness of the article aside, I'm not surprised that more and more people are abandoning religious organizations. They keep clinging to outdated positions, like opposition to contraception, abortion, and homosexuality, that the public simply doesn't agree with anymore. These churches, synagogues, and other institutions are demanding that people ignore their own values and adopt those of the organization. People don't like to do that, and since actual belief in divine punishment is rare among all but the most hardcore believers, people aren't willing to simply comply out of fear. People are making up their own minds, and consistently, religious organizations aren't keep up with the decisions that the public is making.

I still take it as a very good sign that people are leaving religious organizations, even if they're not completely ready to say that their faith is nonsense. If the thought of god makes them warm and fuzzy inside, that's fine. Those people aren't going to be the ones picketing funerals with "god hates fags" signs, or voting to take away others' civil rights. That's a definite improvement in my book.

Paschendale said:

I still take it as a very good sign that people are leaving religious organizations, even if they're not completely ready to say that their faith is nonsense. If the thought of god makes them warm and fuzzy inside, that's fine.

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Wow, thanks... way to be insulting and patronizing. That's sure to win friends and influence people. Also, the assumption that people who don't wish to label themselves members of X organized religion are en-route to atheism is an unsupported assertion.

Those people aren't going to be the ones picketing funerals with "god hates fags" signs, or voting to take away others' civil rights. That's a definite improvement in my book.

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Taking something that a tiny, tiny, TINY minority of people do (mostly just Westboro) and attributing it to the whole... I'm amazed you can lift and swing that broad of a brush to tar us with, it must be heavy indeed.

You could have spoke your piece without being so needlessly provocative.

Atheists don't reject God--they think they are the all-knowing God.

Eh, I'm one of the "religiously unaffiliated" who is neither atheist or agnostic and I don't agree with the arguments you've quoted anymore than I agree with the arguments from atheists who claim that the increase in people like me proves that people are rejecting God and embracing atheism.

In all honesty, I think that both Christians and atheists are using people like me to advance their causes. Atheists use us to crap on religion and exalt atheism. Christians use us to prove what they want to believe about the decline of "the Church" and increase of secularism.

The author states in the OP, "They’re saying they don’t believe in religion. They are not rejecting Christ. They are rejecting the church." Well, no, that's not what "they" are rejecting. Some of "them" are, but a great deal of them are also rejecting Christ. He, like many others, needs to accept this. He also says, "The growing number of people who don’t identify as part of an organized religion speaks to an increasing wariness of labels in our culture." While it is true that many people are wary of labels, many other people just don't believe that the Bible is true or are ambivalent about its truth value. In other words, it's not that they don't want to be labeled Christians; it's that they literally do not consider themselves Christians.

There are plenty of reasons why people like me would refer to ourselves as "religiously unaffiliated" and similar terms and I'd appreciate it if the religious and atheists alike would stop coming up with self-aggrandizing theories about our motivations and using us to confirm their own worldviews.

Goshin said:

Interesting article... I think he's onto something here.





Read more: Christians, here's why we're losing our religion | Fox News

And a very important point he makes...

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I don't see why it ultimately matters. According to the bible, everyone who, like the article states "believe in god but not religion" will be going to hell.

Either way, I see it as a positive trend. Those who believe in god but not a religion are rarely the ones who are trying to force their beliefs on others via government legislation.

Fisher said:

Atheists don't reject God--they think they are the all-knowing God.

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Really? How many atheists have you heard say "I am god"? And how can they be atheists if they believe they are gods themselves?

You'll really say anything to make up a point, won't you?

Paschendale said:

One step at a time...

The Fox-ness of the article aside, I'm not surprised that more and more people are abandoning religious organizations. They keep clinging to outdated positions, like opposition to contraception, abortion, and homosexuality, that the public simply doesn't agree with anymore. These churches, synagogues, and other institutions are demanding that people ignore their own values and adopt those of the organization. People don't like to do that, and since actual belief in divine punishment is rare among all but the most hardcore believers, people aren't willing to simply comply out of fear. People are making up their own minds, and consistently, religious organizations aren't keep up with the decisions that the public is making.

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That's right; lots of people don't like to follow rules. You seem to think that this is all somehow "new." It's as old as humanity.

I don't think this generation is somehow more "evolved" in its thinking. In fact, what I see is, too often, increasing social decay rather than "progress."

Maybe you needed to break free of some hideous fears and are projecting. The people I know who attend regularly are like me: They want to be there, and they're certainly not afraid. That's kinda the whole point.

Well, the thread is turning into the classic "We're better." "No we are." back and forth that never goes anywhere and is entirely useless given the subjectivity of morality and the value of God and religion. Surprise.

In other countries, converts are coming in by the numbers! And that's inspite of heavy persecutions on Christians....we've got martyrs in the Biblical sense of the word in those places.

Fisher said:

Atheists don't reject God--they think they are the all-knowing God.

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Incredibly deluded. With a theistic belief, you can believe yourself to be part of a deity's will, and thus, you have a grand purpose. With an atheistic belief, the universe is random, your life is just the collocation of atoms, and your existence itself has no lasting meaning to anything outside of human society. How then, could you possibly say that atheists think more highly of themselves?

ThePlayDrive said:

Eh, I'm one of the "religiously unaffiliated" who is neither atheist or agnostic and I don't agree with the arguments you've quoted anymore than I agree with the arguments from atheists who claim that the increase in people like me proves that people are rejecting God and embracing atheism.

In all honesty, I think that both Christians and atheists are using people like me to advance their causes. Atheists use us to crap on religion and exalt atheism. Christians use us to prove what they want to believe about the decline of "the Church" and increase of secularism.

The author states in the OP, "They’re saying they don’t believe in religion. They are not rejecting Christ. They are rejecting the church." Well, no, that's not what "they" are rejecting. Some of "them" are, but a great deal of them are also rejecting Christ. He, like many others, needs to accept this. He also says, "The growing number of people who don’t identify as part of an organized religion speaks to an increasing wariness of labels in our culture." While it is true that many people are wary of labels, many other people just don't believe that the Bible is true or are ambivalent about its truth value. In other words, it's not that they don't want to be labeled Christians; it's that they literally do not consider themselves Christians.

There are plenty of reasons why people like me would refer to ourselves as "religiously unaffiliated" and similar terms and I'd appreciate it if the religious and atheists alike would stop coming up with self-aggrandizing theories about our motivations and using us to confirm their own worldviews.

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Nail on head. People who disavow religion generally aren't keeping it between themselves and a Bible, they're keeping it between themselves and the universe.

It's deism or agnostic theism or something like that these polls should be querying the a-religious.

shlunka said:

Incredibly deluded. With a theistic belief, you can believe yourself to be part of a deity's will, and thus, you have a grand purpose. With an atheistic belief, the universe is random, your life is just the collocation of atoms, and your existence itself has no lasting meaning to anything outside of human society. How then, could you possibly say that atheists think more highly of themselves?

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Apparently you have not spent much time in the religion/philosophy threads here. Give it time. You will see what I am saying.

Goshin said:

Moderator's Warning:

Word of caution to all concerned: the Religious Discussion Forum is for the civil discussion of theistic issues. It is not for bashing religion in general, nor challenging the existence of God, nor is it a forum for debating whether atheists or theists are "better", nor for discussing "legislating morality". Those arguments belong in Philosophy, or Church and State, or other subforums. Remember that civility is enforced here.

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I sometimes forget that this is a forum and not a bar room brawl. My apologies.

Goshin said:

Wow, thanks... way to be insulting and patronizing. That's sure to win friends and influence people. Also, the assumption that people who don't wish to label themselves members of X organized religion are en-route to atheism is an unsupported assertion.

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If someone taking the opposite position of your OP is insulting, then you probably shouldn't post the OP in the first place. Nor did I say anything inherently insulting. I didn't even say that anyone's faith was nonsense. Just that the people in question weren't saying it. I didn't even suggest that they should. This is an example of the ridiculous double standard that exists within these discussions. It takes throwing acid in a girl's eyes for a religious person to be labeled as extremist, but any contention that faith isn't necessarily a good thing is called insulting and uncalled for. And no, I didn't say that people who are leaving their religious organizations are going to adopt atheism. But the culture will, slowly. It's been doing for a few centuries already. Hence things like scientific learning flourishing despite religious opposition, religious freedom being a part of our constitution, and society's moral code becoming based more and more on secular and humanist ideals. It's happening. I think it's a good thing.

Taking something that a tiny, tiny, TINY minority of people do (mostly just Westboro) and attributing it to the whole... I'm amazed you can lift and swing that broad of a brush to tar us with, it must be heavy indeed.

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See, I didn't do that. I explicitly didn't do that. The point of your OP is that people who are leaving their organizations really are still members of the faith. The people who are quitting their churches but not really changing their faith, they're still Christians. You and I are in full agreement about that. And I am holding them up as an example of Christians who AREN'T doing those extremely immoral things. So how is that insulting?

You could have spoke your piece without being so needlessly provocative.

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No, I'm pretty sure I couldn't have. I don't think there is any form of opposition to religion that isn't provocative. Even in as gentle a form as I did here. And it is most certainly not needless. It is criticism of whose ideas are permitted to guide our society, and why we adopt their ideas. That is the core of a democratic system.

This thread should not be in the religion forum, as it is not actually about religion. It's about people and what they're doing. It's not a discussion about spiritual matters, but about social opinions. The OP is explicitly about whether people are remaining theistic or adopting atheism. It is inherently about the things that the philosophy forum exists to house and should not be put here to stifle discussion.

I'd like to continue posting, but I'm afraid absolutely everything I have to say about religion will be violating the rules of the religion thread, so I will abstain.

I do however think that this thread would've been far better in the philosophy section. The religious section is really only for those who want to post something without being criticized or analyzed.

It's not about denying the opportunity to think critically or analyze; it's about preventing often-mindlessly insulting bashing of people of faith who want to discuss issues of faith.

nota bene said:

It's not about denying the opportunity to think critically or analyze; it's about preventing often-mindlessly insulting bashing of people of faith who want to discuss issues of faith.

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I'm glad somebody gets it, I was starting to wonder...

Goshin said:

Interesting article... I think he's onto something here.





Read more: Christians, here's why we're losing our religion | Fox News

And a very important point he makes...

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My way of looking at it is that Jesus said "Believe in ME".

Had He meant to say believe in anybody who purports to speak in His name, I do believe He would have said so. As such, I do believe the best approach is to read and decifer the message without interference by others and to place emphasis on the red letters above all else.

Fisher said:

Atheists don't reject God--they think they are the all-knowing God.

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We neither "reject" God, nor think we are gods. We think that we have no evidence of the gods' existence, that's all.

Paschendale said:

This thread should not be in the religion forum, as it is not actually about religion. It's about people and what they're doing. It's not a discussion about spiritual matters, but about social opinions. The OP is explicitly about whether people are remaining theistic or adopting atheism. It is inherently about the things that the philosophy forum exists to house and should not be put here to stifle discussion.

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^^^^^THIS!!!

The rest was pretty good, but the above was what I thought as soon as I began reading the OP

So...people are staying religious - but increasingly outside of "organized religions"? What does it even mean? A person without any special education, disconnected from any religious society, having abandoned all the ritual and tradition, not to mention "good works" that are "organized" by necessity - he will just sit there, reading the Bible, perhaps - and bam! - get enlightened? This is probably the ex-Catholic in me speaking, but it sounds a bit like someone "rejecting organized literacy" - and then reading and understanding Shakespeare, on pure intuition.