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Women Priests and Pastors [W:228]

Nightrider said:
Ever read "Wild at Heart," by John Eldredge? Excellent book, as it talks about just this type of thing - I would highly recommend all Christian males read this, as we are indeed raising a society of wusses...

I fully agree, me friend!
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I've heard only excellent things about this book.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
Correct. Men and women are "just different" in a lot of ways - those ways are genetic. However, unless the women and men who you consider to be "more masculine and more feminine" feel that they aren't being true to themselves, then their femininity and masculinity aren't a problem and whatever issue you have with either is socially constructed rather than based in any genetic differences between men and women.

For the record, there isn't anything in genetic differences between men and women that suggests women can't be priests.
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It is a problem when society and hollywood put unrealistic expectations on women to behave like men, and unrealistic expectations on men to behave like women.

Being a housewife today is looked down upon. Why? Wtf is actually wrong with wanting to take care of your kids?

I went out w a girl last weekend and she made me cookies. Her friends gave her a hard time for it? What is wrong with baking some cookies? I thought it was charming.

No, instead young girls are subjected to movies like mr and mrs smith, and gi Jane. Total unrealistic garbage.

Look at the beauty standards that are shoved at us. Models are always tall, stick thin, with giant cheekbones, etc, which are masculine features. I don't know many guys who prefer that... Most I know go for women who look like women.

This has nothing to do with nature, and everything to do with some bs social engineering.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Women are by nature more concerned with people than they are with God. The church belongs to God.
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Women are different by nature than men, but to suggest that women are less concerned with God than men is foolish.

The body of Christ is the church, and the church is the people. If women are more concerned with people, then they are more concerned with the body of Christ. This is no bad thing.
 
ChuckBerry said:
Women are different by nature than men, but to suggest that women are less concerned with God than men is foolish.

The body of Christ is the church, and the church is the people. If women are more concerned with people, then they are more concerned with the body of Christ. This is no bad thing.
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Look, women are wired differently than men - women tend to favor security over freedom, men vice versa. Since being a Christian means being FREE in Christ, men are naturally more concerned with God. Think about all the wars that have been fought in History - many of them were holy wars. Men fought those wars - bled and died for freedom. Women stayed home and cooked - kept the home secure and tended to babies, whilst the men were the ones risking their lives for a higher cause. Our founding FATHERS were men, for Heaven's sake. By the way, back in the old days, fathers taught their sons to be warriors and fight - to be brave, to be noble and defend one's home turf and family name. I could go on - but I think you get the point...

All the great leaders of the church - throughout History - have been men.... You should read "Wild at Heart." Nowadays, boys are taught to hate their very masculinity, while girls are taught to be masculine - it's all screwed up, if you ask me... Boys nowadays lack mentors - positive role models, that is..... To teach them how to be MEN.

Which is why we are living in an America that has become "wussified...."
 
ChuckBerry said:
Women are different by nature than men, but to suggest that women are less concerned with God than men is foolish.

The body of Christ is the church, and the church is the people. If women are more concerned with people, then they are more concerned with the body of Christ. This is no bad thing.
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Women and men just approach spirituality differently.

I saw a piece on 60 minutes last night, where they were talking about American nuns and their role in the Catholic Church. As you may know, the American nuns were recently sanctioned by Rome for failing to adequately promote the church's stances against abortion, gay marriage, etc. while doing their work. Also, they got in trouble for supporting obamacare on human grounds, while the male bishops opposed it on legalistic ethical grounds.

Toward the end of the interview, the liberal interviewer asked "why do you need the church? Why can't you do these good works on your own?"

To the obvious dismay of the CBS story man, the nun replied "because I am the church, and the church is me. If I didn't have the church, I wouldn't know who I am".

So, women can clearly be as spiritual as men, but they are not as rule oriented. They are by nature more liberal, and more people oriented.

The rise in liberalism in this country is tied to the decrease in testicular size of American males since 1930 or so.
 
Nightrider said:
Look, women are wired differently than men - women tend to favor security over freedom, men vice versa. Since being a Christian means being FREE in Christ, men are naturally more concerned with God. Think about all the wars that have been fought in History - many of them were holy wars. Men fought those wars - bled and died for freedom. Women stayed home and cooked - kept the home secure and tended to babies, whilst the men were the ones risking their lives for a higher cause. Our founding FATHERS were men, for Heaven's sake. By the way, back in the old days, fathers taught their sons to be warriors and fight - to be brave, to be noble and defend one's home turf and family name. I could go on - but I think you get the point...

All the great leaders of the church - throughout History - have been men.... You should read "Wild at Heart." Nowadays, boys are taught to hate their very masculinity, while girls are taught to be masculine - it's all screwed up, if you ask me... Boys nowadays lack mentors - positive role models, that is..... To teach them how to be MEN.

Which is why we are living in an America that has become "wussified...."
Click to expand...

This guy just gets it.
 
Nightrider said:
Look, women are wired differently than men - women tend to favor security over freedom, men vice versa. Since being a Christian means being FREE in Christ, men are naturally more concerned with God. Think about all the wars that have been fought in History - many of them were holy wars. Men fought those wars - bled and died for freedom. Women stayed home and cooked - kept the home secure and tended to babies, whilst the men were the ones risking their lives for a higher cause. Our founding FATHERS were men, for Heaven's sake. By the way, back in the old days, fathers taught their sons to be warriors and fight - to be brave, to be noble and defend one's home turf and family name. I could go on - but I think you get the point...

All the great leaders of the church - throughout History - have been men.... You should read "Wild at Heart." Nowadays, boys are taught to hate their very masculinity, while girls are taught to be masculine - it's all screwed up, if you ask me... Boys nowadays lack mentors - positive role models, that is..... To teach them how to be MEN.

Which is why we are living in an America that has become "wussified...."
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Damn, you nailed it out of the park.
 
Dispite some of the Pauline letters (not all scholars believe all of the biblical pauline letteres were actuallly written by Paul), there were, in the early church female church leaders, even listing a woman as an "apostle" (Romans 16:7), women are listed as prophets and evangelists in the new testiment.

The early church was radically egalitarian and feminist, which caused a conflict in the church, some people wanted the church to be lead by men, some though both.

I think talking about this when it comes to "modern sensibilities" however is stupid, christianity has never been about molding to society, it's been about the example and sacrifice of christ.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The rise in liberalism in this country is tied to the decrease in testicular size of American males since 1930 or so.
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This is the dumbest statement I've heard in a long time, you wanna know who was a radical liberal? Jesus.

If you have a problem with you're testicular size, that's you're issue, don't blame it on the fact that women now have human rights.
 
Nightrider said:
Look, women are wired differently than men - women tend to favor security over freedom, men vice versa. Since being a Christian means being FREE in Christ, men are naturally more concerned with God. Think about all the wars that have been fought in History - many of them were holy wars. Men fought those wars - bled and died for freedom. Women stayed home and cooked - kept the home secure and tended to babies, whilst the men were the ones risking their lives for a higher cause. Our founding FATHERS were men, for Heaven's sake. By the way, back in the old days, fathers taught their sons to be warriors and fight - to be brave, to be noble and defend one's home turf and family name. I could go on - but I think you get the point...

All the great leaders of the church - throughout History - have been men.... You should read "Wild at Heart." Nowadays, boys are taught to hate their very masculinity, while girls are taught to be masculine - it's all screwed up, if you ask me... Boys nowadays lack mentors - positive role models, that is..... To teach them how to be MEN.

Which is why we are living in an America that has become "wussified...."
Click to expand...

Women tend to favor security over freedom? DO you have evidence of that? I'd say it depends on the situation, infact I'd say there is evidence showing the contrary.

Being a Christian means being a SLAVE, a slave of God.

No "holy war" was ever fought for freedom, almost no wars were fought for freedom, and no "holy war" was ever actually holy, they were discusting imperialistic slaughters and calling them "holy" is paramount to blasphemy, as Jesus was a pacifist as was the first century church.

Also the founding fathers of christianity were men and women, as a christian I don't give a **** about the founding fathers of some country because I believe in the brotherhood of man, and I follow the christian teachings oppossing nationalism for internationalism and universalism, and I oppose war because that is what the prophetic tradition, Jesus and the New Testiment teach.

Oh, and back in the old days, people who read the bible were burned at the stake, people who translated it were burned at the stake, in the old days slavery was rampent, there was no democracy, in the old days leadership was passed through bloodlines, science was repressed and so on.

Talking about learning how to be a man, I take my role model as Jesus, I suggest you do the same. Nowerdays boys are taught (by morons that think like you) that violence makes a man, that authority makes a man, that domination makes a man, ideas that Jesus detested.

If you being a man is hindered by women have equal rights then you were a bitch to begin with.

It's people like you that totally miss the point of the christian message, that give christianity a bad name.
 
RGacky3 said:
This is the dumbest statement I've heard in a long time, you wanna know who was a radical liberal? Jesus.

If you have a problem with you're testicular size, that's you're issue, don't blame it on the fact that women now have human rights.
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I'm not a liberal, and neither is Jesus. That's why liberals are always the ones bashing the church, trying to undermine biblical teaching by telling people not to take things "literally," trying to take prayer out of school, etc.

Just because he wore a toga and had long hair does not make Jesus a liberal. If you'd put down your copy of Little Women and actually read the Bible, you'd know that.

Does this sound lik a hippy dippy, free love, treehugging liberal to you?

Matt 5:27-28
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
 
RGacky3 said:
Women tend to favor security over freedom? DO you have evidence of that? I'd say it depends on the situation, infact I'd say there is evidence showing the contrary.

Being a Christian means being a SLAVE, a slave of God.

No "holy war" was ever fought for freedom, almost no wars were fought for freedom, and no "holy war" was ever actually holy, they were discusting imperialistic slaughters and calling them "holy" is paramount to blasphemy, as Jesus was a pacifist as was the first century church.

Also the founding fathers of christianity were men and women, as a christian I don't give a **** about the founding fathers of some country because I believe in the brotherhood of man, and I follow the christian teachings oppossing nationalism for internationalism and universalism, and I oppose war because that is what the prophetic tradition, Jesus and the New Testiment teach.

Oh, and back in the old days, people who read the bible were burned at the stake, people who translated it were burned at the stake, in the old days slavery was rampent, there was no democracy, in the old days leadership was passed through bloodlines, science was repressed and so on.

Talking about learning how to be a man, I take my role model as Jesus, I suggest you do the same. Nowerdays boys are taught (by morons that think like you) that violence makes a man, that authority makes a man, that domination makes a man, ideas that Jesus detested.

If you being a man is hindered by women have equal rights then you were a bitch to begin with.

It's people like you that totally miss the point of the christian message, that give christianity a bad name.
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Interesting observation... Another socialist male weighing in...
 
Peter Grimm said:
I'm not a liberal, and neither is Jesus. That's why liberals are always the ones bashing the church, trying to undermine biblical teaching by telling people not to take things "literally," trying to take prayer out of school, etc.
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Jesus was the person telling the Jewish leadership to not take things literally (letter of the law vrs spirit of the law) ... Jesus bashed the religious authorities of the time.

Just because he wore a toga and had long hair does not make Jesus a liberal. If you'd put down your copy of Little Women and actually read the Bible, you'd know that.

Does this sound lik a hippy dippy, free love, treehugging liberal to you?

Matt 5:27-28
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Click to expand...

I've read the bible, more than once, and I've studied the New Testimant, and yeah that scripture does sound pretty damn liberal, the point being heart condition is more imrportant than action.

Also Jesus didn't wear a toga because he wasn't greco-roman, he wore traditional jewish garments, and we don't know what his hair style was, but we certainly know he wasn't blonde and blue eyed as shown by nightrider and racist middle aged european art.
 
This is a non-political forum. The interjection of politics, particularly using the term "liberal" in the negative sense, is inappropriate.
 
ChuckBerry said:
This is a non-political forum. The interjection of politics, particularly using the term "liberal" in the negative sense, is inappropriate.
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I wasn't sure exactly what the use of the term "liberal" was, I was using it in it's theological form, it's historical fact that Jesus preached a liberal jewish theology.
 
Peter Grimm said:
It is a problem when society and hollywood put unrealistic expectations on women to behave like men, and unrealistic expectations on men to behave like women.

Being a housewife today is looked down upon. Why? Wtf is actually wrong with wanting to take care of your kids?

I went out w a girl last weekend and she made me cookies. Her friends gave her a hard time for it? What is wrong with baking some cookies? I thought it was charming.

No, instead young girls are subjected to movies like mr and mrs smith, and gi Jane. Total unrealistic garbage.

Look at the beauty standards that are shoved at us. Models are always tall, stick thin, with giant cheekbones, etc, which are masculine features. I don't know many guys who prefer that... Most I know go for women who look like women.

This has nothing to do with nature, and everything to do with some bs social engineering.
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1. Being tall, skinny and having "giant" cheekbones are not "masculine" features. You do realize that plenty of women are just naturally tall, skinny and have pronounced cheekbones? You realize that plenty of men are just naturally short, fat and have cheekbones that aren't pronounced. Moreover, the VAST majority of beauty expectations pushed on women are those encouraging women to be MORE stereotypically feminine NOT masculine.

2. If "GI Jane" is unrealistic, then "GI Joe" is also unrealistic. Both types of characters are unrealistic for the average person, male or women. That's why they're ENTERTAINMENT. But if you're arguing that there aren't female CIA, FBI, NSA, etc. agents who aren't field agents or spies, you'd be wrong.

3. Looking down on women for wanting to be housewives and pushing harmful beauty expectations is a problem, I agree. But what you are doing is pushing your own socially constructed ideas of femininity on women as well. You are doing the same garbage that you are accusing others of doing.

And for the record, what your "guy friends" want in women is entirely irrelevant to who or what women should be. Women should be who and what they feel comfortable being. If you and your guy friends think that women aren't feminine enough for you, then you need get over it because women exist independent of your pleasure.
 
Peter Grimm said:
I went to a church once with a female pastor. The whole thing had too much of an "earth mother" slash "lubby dubby" feel for me to take it seriously.

Women are by nature more concerned with people than they are with God. The church belongs to God.
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Any scientific study of this??? No ...

You know who was lubby dubby? Jesus Christ.

nightrider said:
I go to a conservative church.

There are also liberal churches, where not everything in the bible is taken literally - such as, the Lutheran Church ELCA. Such churches also allow gays to be pastors (last time I checked, anyway)....

Again - freedom of assembly and religion go hand in hand.

Govt. needs to mind their own business when it comes to the Christian Church - no need to embellish this point any further....

I see me work here is done - you kids behave yourselves.
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And yet you look back fondly of a time where the church and state were one.

If you have such a low opinion of the Bible and of church, then don't go. Don't expect your opinion to be taken seriously, though, by those of us who are religious.
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You obviously have a low opinion of the bible, especially the gospel, since you miss the entire purpose of it. I never seamed to to hear Jesus go around putting down women, infact he elevated them, or telling people to "stop being ******s" he was compassionate, his message centered around the kingdom of God nad love, i.e. agape. many of the leaders of the early church were women, something radical at the time.

People like you are not actually religious, you're small egoed bigots who want to hide behind a faith you don't understand.
 
Absurd. God doesn't care about gender politics.

But I do. I'd sanction female admission in a heartbeat. The last thing I'd do is afford the feminazis yet one more pseudo-weepy contrivance, from which to claim victimhood.

Make every last demographic eligible for inclusion. That's the key to stifling power plays.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Exhibit "B" why women should never be pastors.

Women, by nature, can't let things like rules get in the way of feeling good.

I went to a church once with a female pastor. The whole thing had too much of an "earth mother" slash "lubby dubby" feel for me to take it seriously.

Women are by nature more concerned with people than they are with God. The church belongs to God.
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Like I said, I went to a church with a woman Pastor too. I didn't make a fuss about it because despite this I honestly believed that's where The Lord wanted me, no church is perfect and I was more concerned about my own spiritual growth and let others worry about theirs. She wasn't the top Pastor on paper but she was high ranking and exercised a significant level of authority over the whole church, men and women alike. Again, I didn't think that was best based on the Bible and believed the church was (is) in a weakened state as a result but I also don't think female headed single parent homes are best and I grew up on one of those too.
 
RGacky3 said:
Women tend to favor security over freedom? DO you have evidence of that? I'd say it depends on the situation, infact I'd say there is evidence showing the contrary.

Being a Christian means being a SLAVE, a slave of God.

No "holy war" was ever fought for freedom, almost no wars were fought for freedom, and no "holy war" was ever actually holy, they were discusting imperialistic slaughters and calling them "holy" is paramount to blasphemy, as Jesus was a pacifist as was the first century church.

Also the founding fathers of christianity were men and women, as a christian I don't give a **** about the founding fathers of some country because I believe in the brotherhood of man, and I follow the christian teachings oppossing nationalism for internationalism and universalism, and I oppose war because that is what the prophetic tradition, Jesus and the New Testiment teach.

Oh, and back in the old days, people who read the bible were burned at the stake, people who translated it were burned at the stake, in the old days slavery was rampent, there was no democracy, in the old days leadership was passed through bloodlines, science was repressed and so on.

Talking about learning how to be a man, I take my role model as Jesus, I suggest you do the same. Nowerdays boys are taught (by morons that think like you) that violence makes a man, that authority makes a man, that domination makes a man, ideas that Jesus detested.

If you being a man is hindered by women have equal rights then you were a bitch to begin with.

It's people like you that totally miss the point of the christian message, that give christianity a bad name.
Click to expand...

I suggest you read Matthew 10 - it basically rebuts everything you just said.....

I don't agree with you - you have your opinion and I have mine.

Oh, one last thing: Here is a funny parody, showing a wild and free Homer Simpson (and please don't take this the wrong way, as I don't take anything you've said seriously, either):



Hasta la vista and I wish you a happy life - may the wind be always at your back, as they say....

I have no further comment.
 
Nightrider said:
I suggest you read Matthew 10 - it basically rebuts everything you just said.....

I don't agree with you - you have your opinion and I have mine.

Oh, one last thing: Here is a funny parody, showing a wild and free Homer Simpson (and please don't take this the wrong way, as I don't take anything you've said seriously, either):
Click to expand...

Matthew 10 is Jesus explaining that the christian life will be hard as will evangalism, and will create conflict with the reactionary world around them, nothing to do with your mysogony and absolutely not rebutting anything I said.

I understand you don't agree with me, but this isn't my opinion, its the Christian opinion, love (agape) is the most important commandment, loving your neighbor, and it's clear that it includes all nations, also it's a fact that early church leaders were women, not an opinion, it's also a fact that the early christians were pacifists.

But here is the difference, I actaully take scripture and christianity seriously, I take the christian ethic embodied in the life of Jesus seriously, you apparently don't.

But it's obvious you cannot have a serious discussion here since you don't take scripture or logic seriously, and are unwilling to engage.

I think your avi is a perfect representation, a blonde white Jesus, totally ignoring actual history, fact, scripture, just prefering reactionary conservative ideology, using psudo-christianity as an excuse rather than actually trying to immitate christ.
 
RGacky3 said:
Matthew 10 is Jesus explaining that the christian life will be hard as will evangalism, and will create conflict with the reactionary world around them, nothing to do with your mysogony and absolutely not rebutting anything I said.

I understand you don't agree with me, but this isn't my opinion, its the Christian opinion, love (agape) is the most important commandment, loving your neighbor, and it's clear that it includes all nations, also it's a fact that early church leaders were women, not an opinion, it's also a fact that the early christians were pacifists.

But here is the difference, I actaully take scripture and christianity seriously, I take the christian ethic embodied in the life of Jesus seriously, you apparently don't.

But it's obvious you cannot have a serious discussion here since you don't take scripture or logic seriously, and are unwilling to engage.

I think your avi is a perfect representation, a blonde white Jesus, totally ignoring actual history, fact, scripture, just prefering reactionary conservative ideology, using psudo-christianity as an excuse rather than actually trying to immitate christ.
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Look, I don't have time for this. I have a zillion things to do this week..... I'm a professional musician and writer - and I've been neglecting those interests, debating with the likes of you on this site lately. I'm damn good at my chosen profession(s), mind you - my time is precious. If you and others want to be here 24/7/365, that's fine. That's just not me - I will say y'all are damn good debaters. I would be as well, IF that's all I did. But it is completely non-productive, as I have a life outside these forums....

I do wish I could stay here, because I think you present your case very well. I just don't have the time....
 
ThePlayDrive said:
1. It's not a controversy in the "Christian" church so much as it is a controversy in certain denominations of Christianity, particularly Catholicism. As a result, there are plenty of Christians who think that women should be priests/ministers/pastors so trying to pass this off as some sort of "non-Christian" agenda is nonsensical. In fact, there are plenty of people within Christian denominations who don't yet allow women priests, et al. who believe that their church should change. In other words, it's very much an conflict among Christians.
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I think independent Churches tend to see a lot of women in the ministry out of the relatively new tradition of spouses being "co-pastors" but the Catholic Church is a bigger target for secularists to challenge. Nevertheless, most of the people I run into and see in the various media harping over it are non-Christians.

2. As far as the Bible not supporting women having authority over men, I don't buy it. While the twelve apostles were men and while there are some line in the Bible that treat women as inferior, there are also plenty of women who played significant roles in the Bible and who were in Jesus's wider circle of disciples. Moreover, there are also verses that declare the equality of men and women in God's eyes.
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The Bible never said women are inferior to men but equal in the sight of God. This does not mean we don't have uniquely designated assignments sometimes based on gender, sometimes other things. In the Bible many assignments are restricted based on things like which tribe of Israel does one belong. For example, only the descendants of Levi could serve as Priests in the OT. This meant that Jesus himself wasn't allowed to enter certain parts of the temple in Jerusalem or perform certain ministry functions. He never complained about his supposed 'rights' being trampled upon, he simply did what God wanted HIM to do and let others do THEIR God appointed assignments.

3. Men who cannot accept female authority figures have a problem. Since they have the problem, they should never be a reason to keep women out of leadership positions. To suggest otherwise is preposterous.
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I need to apologize. The Bible doesn't say females are restricted from serving in the Church are leaders of men because some men are innately wired not to accept female authority. That's my own reasoning, which I think is true, but its not the reason the Bible gives.

I do think the Bible authorizes women to preach to non-believers of any gender, teach believers of any gender, pray for anybody of any gender, serve as workers in the church and serve as Pastors of women in the church based on what I believe the Bible instructs. That said, have you been to Church lately? Its rare to see a church made up of mostly men. In practical terms, due to the demographic make up of most churches the women end up having more influence than most men anyway.

Much of this line of thinking originates with secular reasoning projecting itself upon the Church so let me use some secular examples. I'm not sure where everybody went to college but where I went there was a group on campus called the Kappa Sweethearts. They were the most adorable ladies you ever beheld. A close second were the ladies of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Incorporated. As a male living on the campus of Clark-Atlanta University, one could not help but to notice the stunning beauty of these ladies and the natural inclination would be to get as close to these bright and beautiful ladies as possible. However, eligibility to join the their groups were restricted to females. Hate-filled bigotry and blatant discrimination? I guess that depends on how you define it but despite the disappointment keeping membership to females only is their right and I think the proper thing to do. Should boys be allowed to join the Girl Scouts? Should men be allowed to put on and habit, become a nun and join the Sisters of Our Lady of Mercy?

4. There are plenty of men who respect women in such authority positions. I grew up in the Episcopal Church and some of the priests in our church were women. They were just as respected as the men - in some cases, they were more respected than the men, not because of their gender, but because of personality differences.

5. There are plenty of animals who count females as authority figures. Moreover, who cares what other animals are doing. We're human beings. Our brains help us move beyond base gender roles.
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I agree. I respect women myself. I'm just saying what the Bible says. Plenty of Benjaminites, Rubenites, etc. in the OT were probably respected as leaders too but sorry, God said only Levites are eligible to be Priests. I think it comes down to whether the Church exists to serve God that way God instructs or are we simply here to do our own thing and then slap a religious label on it.
 
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