Women Priests and Pastors [W:228]

Peter Grimm · Mar 18, 2013

rathi said:
As opposed to you, who follows every single canon law ever written since the council of Nicaea. Naturally, you would never ignore rules about lending money for interest just because its a common fixture in modern society. Clearly your desire to make women subservient is based on cold objective application of church law and has no basis in the fact you'd personally benefit being male.

Usury isn't in the Bible, but the part about women not being pastors is in the Bible.

The problem is you've let Hollywood and the liberal media brainwash you in to thinking women are exactly the same as men.

I laugh when I see women swordfighting in movies or beating up men with crazy karate moves. Pure liberal fantasy, that.

In the real world, men and women are different, and that's a good thing.

Women should be feminine.

Peter Grimm · Mar 18, 2013

Your Star said:
We are, and we are, end of story.

The Catholic church has said it's not even up for debate. They've got it right.

Of course, I have a lot of respect for nuns. As much as preists, in fact. They're just different roles.

Jetboogieman · Mar 18, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Usury isn't in the Bible, but the part about women not being pastors is in the Bible.

The problem is you've let Hollywood and the liberal media brainwash you in to thinking women are exactly the same as men.

I laugh when I see women swordfighting in movies or beating up men with crazy karate moves. Pure liberal fantasy, that.

In the real world, men and women are different, and that's a good thing.

Women should be feminine.

rathi · Mar 18, 2013

Smeagol said:
I say lets study the Bible on it. The only way we're going to know if its Biblical or not is by studying the Bible. Mark 7. What does the Bible teach about race relations?

What scriptures do you feel are pertinent? Timothy 2:12? Corinthians 14:34? I can provide arguments for why those passages don't prohibit female religious leaders.

BTW: I don't consider saying the role of mentoring men should be reserved for other men is discrimination.

Its most definitely discrimination. I'd certainly have lost valuable guidance without the female mentors in my life.

Peter Grimm · Mar 18, 2013

Jetboogieman said:

Call it what you want - I tire of the limp, waffley American male. Seriously, our culture raises the biggest bunch of ******s on earth when it comes to gender relations.

I blame Hugh Grant, mostly.

Just keepin the pimp hand strong. :lol

Your Star · Mar 18, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Call it what you want - I tire of the limp, waffley American male. Seriously, our culture raises the biggest bunch of ******s on earth when it comes to gender relations.

I blame Hugh Grant, mostly.

Just keepin the pimp hand strong. :lol

So for men to be strong women have to be weak, and subservient?

Yeah that's not sexist :roll:

Luke Skywalker · Mar 18, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Call it what you want - I tire of the limp, waffley American male. Seriously, our culture raises the biggest bunch of ******s on earth when it comes to gender relations.

I blame Hugh Grant, mostly.

Just keepin the pimp hand strong. :lol

Ever read "Wild at Heart," by John Eldredge? Excellent book, as it talks about just this type of thing - I would highly recommend all Christian males read this, as we are indeed raising a society of wusses...

I fully agree, me friend!

rathi · Mar 18, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Usury isn't in the Bible, but the part about women not being pastors is in the Bible.

"In you they take bribes to shed blood; you take usury and increase; you have made profit from your neighbors by extortion, and have forgotten Me," says the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 22:12)

If he has exacted usury Or taken increase -- Shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, He shall surely die; His blood shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:13)

The problem is you've let Hollywood and the liberal media brainwash you in to thinking women are exactly the same as men.

No I've sufficient education in biology to know what the actual differences between women and men are. Your views are merely prejudice.

I laugh when I see women swordfighting in movies or beating up men with crazy karate moves. Pure liberal fantasy, that.

As opposed to the men using karate and swordfighting in movies, which is always extremely realistic right?

In the real world, men and women are different, and that's a good thing.

Nobody is trying to claim that women and men don't have genetic differences. The problem is that you want to claim that women are inferior which is unacceptable.

Women should be feminine.

Women are by definition feminine.

rathi · Mar 18, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Call it what you want - I tire of the limp, waffley American male. Seriously, our culture raises the biggest bunch of ******s on earth when it comes to gender relations.

Yes because nothing says "tough" like being frightened to death about women becoming pastors.

I blame Hugh Grant, mostly.

If men are as strong as you claim, how the hell can they be turned into ******s by a watching a bad romantic comedy?

Just keepin the pimp hand strong. :lol

Also better keep your butt well lubed, as modern society puts people like that in prison.

Bonzai · Mar 18, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Call it what you want - I tire of the limp, waffley American male. Seriously, our culture raises the biggest bunch of ******s on earth when it comes to gender relations.

I blame Hugh Grant, mostly.

Just keepin the pimp hand strong. :lol

But Conservative males come off as "rag queens".............go figure......................Oh, the humanity........................

Luke Skywalker · Mar 18, 2013

"Every time a bell rings an angel gets his wings..."

Every time a liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), Nightrider takes a swig of Jack Daniels....

Been doing this since the start of this thread - me pretty drunk right now....

Can hardly type, mind you - lol.

winston53660 · Mar 18, 2013

Nightrider said:
"Every time a bell rings an angel gets his wings..."

Every time a liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), Nightrider takes a swig of Jack Daniels....

Been doing this since the start of this thread - me pretty drunk right now....

Can hardly type, mind you - lol.

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ThePlayDrive · Mar 18, 2013

Smeagol said:
An ongoing controversy in the Christian Church is the ineligibility of female ministry leaders. An interesting observation I've made is much if not most of the opposition to this traditional church policy comes from secular sources. Its kind of curious IMHO that non-Christians think its their role to dictate how the Church should be run.

The whys and the why nots:

Whys- The modern social norm of "equal opportunity" for all I think plays the biggest role in the push for opportunities for female leadership in Church. Is it time to modernize the church? Secondly, a lot of men have screwed up in church. Doing wrong is not exclusive to gender but to be honest you hear a lot less scandalous stuff at the hands of women in the church.

Why nots- What some people don't seem to get is Christians don't write the rules for Christians, God does as expressed in The Bible. The Bible seems to indicate it is not consistent with Biblical order for women to have authority over men in the church. I think this might derive from the patriarchal leadership model for the home and the Church being an extension of the family. Secondly, I firmly believe there are some men who innately cannot accept female governance over their lives. We see this all the time in the dysfunction of many (but not all) female headed single parent homes. If there is no respected leadership, then those who should be nurtured and guided become their own leader at a time in their spiritual lives when they might lack the spiritual maturity to be leaderless. Even in much of the animal kingdom, leadership roles are more often reserved for male animals. Plus, there is hardly any biblical precedence for female based spiritual leadership; I can think of just a couple of cases off the top out of too many to count.

I was once a member of a church where the Pastor's wife in practice exercised more authority in the church than her husband. I am currently a member of a church where women hold important positions but only have spiritual rank, so to speak, over other women; respected by all but do not take leadership over the men. I think women have an important role in the church but I understand THE BIBLE to teach males in the church should have male mentoring and leadership. It should also be noted that "preaching" and "teaching" is not the same as having spiritual authority over.

1. It's not a controversy in the "Christian" church so much as it is a controversy in certain denominations of Christianity, particularly Catholicism. As a result, there are plenty of Christians who think that women should be priests/ministers/pastors so trying to pass this off as some sort of "non-Christian" agenda is nonsensical. In fact, there are plenty of people within Christian denominations who don't yet allow women priests, et al. who believe that their church should change. In other words, it's very much an conflict among Christians.

2. As far as the Bible not supporting women having authority over men, I don't buy it. While the twelve apostles were men and while there are some line in the Bible that treat women as inferior, there are also plenty of women who played significant roles in the Bible and who were in Jesus's wider circle of disciples. Moreover, there are also verses that declare the equality of men and women in God's eyes.

3. Men who cannot accept female authority figures have a problem. Since they have the problem, they should never be a reason to keep women out of leadership positions. To suggest otherwise is preposterous.

4. There are plenty of men who respect women in such authority positions. I grew up in the Episcopal Church and some of the priests in our church were women. They were just as respected as the men - in some cases, they were more respected than the men, not because of their gender, but because of personality differences.

5. There are plenty of animals who count females as authority figures. Moreover, who cares what other animals are doing. We're human beings. Our brains help us move beyond base gender roles.

Gina · Mar 18, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Just keepin the pimp hand strong. :lol

Yes, nothing says men are more qualified to be spiritual leaders than the threat of a "pimp hand".

Smeagol · Mar 18, 2013

rathi said:
What scriptures do you feel are pertinent? Timothy 2:12? Corinthians 14:34? I can provide arguments for why those passages don't prohibit female religious leaders.

Its most definitely discrimination. I'd certainly have lost valuable guidance without the female mentors in my life.

So it's clear the bible teaches its not the role of women to mentor men in the Christian faith. Now what does it say about race of which a comparison was made? Despite past errors in religiously rooted racism, I see no directive in the bible to restrict or mistreat anyone based upon race. In fact, I see examples made when people did. It seems the only time Christians mess up is when they succumb to the pressures of contemporary society of their era and ignore the bible. In the 1600s to 1900s in the west the contemporary society said to ignore the bible, embrace racist practices then call it Christianity.

Goshin · Mar 18, 2013

Moderator's Warning:

This is a meek, mild, and exceedingly gentle reminder that this discussion is taking place in the Religious Discussion Forum, which is specifically for the CIVIL discussion of religious/theistic issues... some of you need to put a bit more emphasis on the "civil" part thank you...

Peter Grimm · Mar 18, 2013

Your Star said:
So for men to be strong women have to be weak, and subservient?

Yeah that's not sexist :roll:

Men and women are just different. One gender isn't any better than the other, but our culture's ridiculous penchant for making women more masculine and men more feminine does need addressing.

ThePlayDrive · Mar 18, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Men and women are just different. One gender isn't any better than the other, but our culture's ridiculous penchant for making women more masculine and men more feminine does need addressing.

Correct. Men and women are "just different" in a lot of ways - those ways are genetic. However, unless the women and men who you consider to be "more masculine and more feminine" feel that they aren't being true to themselves, then their femininity and masculinity aren't a problem and whatever issue you have with either is socially constructed rather than based in any genetic differences between men and women.

For the record, there isn't anything in genetic differences between men and women that suggests women can't be priests.

Luke Skywalker · Mar 18, 2013

winston53660 said:
liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church), liberal mentions discrimination (in the church),

"You're despicable...." - Daffy Duck

Sarcogito · Mar 18, 2013

Nightrider said:
I go to a conservative church.

There are also liberal churches, where not everything in the bible is taken literally - such as, the Lutheran Church ELCA. Such churches also allow gays to be pastors (last time I checked, anyway)....

Again - freedom of assembly and religion go hand in hand.

Govt. needs to mind their own business when it comes to the Christian Church - no need to embellish this point any further....

I see me work here is done - you kids behave yourselves.

Dude, you are the only one talking about government involvement so far in this thread. Private citizens expressing their opinions on what a church should do is not the government. I agree, government should stay out of it. But individuals should feel free to shame them all they want.

Fisher · Mar 18, 2013

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them"......doesn't say that one of them has to be a man.

Personally I want some big old burly lesbian minister if I were being dunked over backwards in a river by a chick, but otherwise not such a big deal.........

Luke Skywalker · Mar 18, 2013

Sarcogito said:
Dude, you are the only one talking about government involvement so far in this thread. Private citizens expressing their opinions on what a church should do is not the government. I agree, government should stay out of it. But individuals should feel free to shame them all they want.

I KNOW I'm the only one talking about govt. involvement - I caught that "error" as well (me hates editing) after posting... I believe what I said is true, but won't mention the govt. getting involved again, as long as no one else in this thread does....

To address the rest of your post - and specifically the part about shame: "To you, O Lord, I lift up my soul; in you I trust, O my God. Do not let me be put to shame, nor let my enemies triumph over me. No one whose hope is in you will ever be put to shame, but they will be put to shame who are treacherous without excuse...." - Psalm 25: 1-3

Attack my posts and point out me errors all you want, but don't attack my beliefs or (more specifically) try to bring shame into the mix... It won't work - in fact, us Christians feed off that stuff and it makes us stronger.

Peter Grimm · Mar 19, 2013

rathi said:
"In you they take bribes to shed blood; you take usury and increase; you have made profit from your neighbors by extortion, and have forgotten Me," says the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 22:12)

If he has exacted usury Or taken increase -- Shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, He shall surely die; His blood shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:13)

No I've sufficient education in biology to know what the actual differences between women and men are. Your views are merely prejudice.

As opposed to the men using karate and swordfighting in movies, which is always extremely realistic right?

Nobody is trying to claim that women and men don't have genetic differences. The problem is that you want to claim that women are inferior which is unacceptable.

Women are by definition feminine.

Your Bible quotes on "usury" are off. This is why people need to use modern translations.

"In you are people who accept bribes to shed blood; you take interest and make a profit from the poor. You extort unjust gain from your neighbors. And you have forgotten me, declares the Sovereign Lord."

That verse is clearly about admonishing someone who is extorting the poor, which IS wrong. Giving out bad loans to poor people is insanely immoral and it happens all the time. That's quite different from regular day to day finance. But, FYI, I don't have a mortgage, nor do I have a credit card to my name.

The differences between men and women extend far beyond penises and vaginas.

Men historically fought with swords, so yes that is far more accurate. Men are physically stronger than women, that is why there is not a single sport in which women can compete with men on a high level.

Not calling women inferior. You sly fellow you. Lets not misrepresent one another.

Women should act feminine, men should act masculine.

Peter Grimm · Mar 19, 2013

rathi said:
Yes because nothing says "tough" like being frightened to death about women becoming pastors.

If men are as strong as you claim, how the hell can they be turned into ******s by a watching a bad romantic comedy?

Also better keep your butt well lubed, as modern society puts people like that in prison.

Frightened? Hah.

The Hugh grant thing was a joke. The Hollywood blaming part was not.

Are you a male feminist? Serious question.

Peter Grimm · Mar 19, 2013

Gina said:
Yes, nothing says men are more qualified to be spiritual leaders than the threat of a "pimp hand".

Well luckily, I'm not a pastor. Now make me a sandwich.

Women Priests and Pastors [W:228]

Peter Grimm

Peter Grimm

Jetboogieman

Somewhere in Babylon

rathi

Count Smackula

Peter Grimm

Your Star

Rage More!

Luke Skywalker

rathi

Count Smackula

rathi

Count Smackula

Bonzai

Luke Skywalker

winston53660

ThePlayDrive

Gina

Smeagol

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod

Peter Grimm

ThePlayDrive

Luke Skywalker

Sarcogito

Fisher

Luke Skywalker

Peter Grimm

Peter Grimm

Peter Grimm