• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Facing Uncomfortable Truths

LowDown

LowDown

Curmudgeon
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Messages
14,185
Reaction score
8,768
Location
Houston
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Facing uncomfortable truths | The Jewish Chronicle

In a recent Al-Jazeerah interview, Richard Dawkins was asked his views on God. He argued that the god of "the Old Testament" is "hideous" and "a monster", and reiterated his claim from The God Delusion that the God of the Torah is the most unpleasant character "in fiction". Asked if he thought the same of the God of the Koran, Dawkins ducked the question, saying: "Well, um, the God of the Koran I don't know so much about."

How can it be that the world's most fearless atheist, celebrated for his strident opinions on the Christian and Jewish Gods, could profess to know so little about the God of the Koran? Has he not had the time? Or is Professor Dawkins simply demonstrating that most crucial trait of his species: survival instinct.
Click to expand...

Heh.

Maybe Christians ought to behead a few of these guys to get some of the kind of fear and respect that Islam enjoys. It wouldn't take many -- most of these guys are cowards and poseurs who can be shut down by the least hint of risk.
 
LowDown said:
Facing uncomfortable truths | The Jewish Chronicle



Heh.

Maybe Christians ought to behead a few of these guys to get some of the kind of fear and respect that Islam enjoys. It wouldn't take many -- most of these guys are cowards and poseurs who can be shut down by the least hint of risk.
Click to expand...

Interesting that a man who knows enough about religion to be stringently atheistic, has a lapse of memory, when the God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are one and the same. I'm guessing he's chicken-****, except for when he's bashing Christianity.
 
LowDown said:
Facing uncomfortable truths | The Jewish Chronicle



Heh.

Maybe Christians ought to behead a few of these guys to get some of the kind of fear and respect that Islam enjoys. It wouldn't take many -- most of these guys are cowards and poseurs who can be shut down by the least hint of risk.
Click to expand...

Ya remember when we fought "them" in Iraq and Afghanistan? Cowards and poseurs the whole way.
 
LowDown said:
Facing uncomfortable truths | The Jewish Chronicle



Heh.

Maybe Christians ought to behead a few of these guys to get some of the kind of fear and respect that Islam enjoys. It wouldn't take many -- most of these guys are cowards and poseurs who can be shut down by the least hint of risk.
Click to expand...



I am not a big fan of Dr.Dawkins - either as a biologist or as a "popularizer of atheism", but this claim in The Jewish Chronicles is quite a distortion. The question was about relationship between the (literalist perception of) God of the Old Testament and the God of the Koran, the New Testament, "Hindu scriptures, etc - i.e. the "further (or independent)evolution" of that perception in the minds of millions of actual believers. Dawkins says he does know as much about the Koranic image of God, in passing - no more, no less
(Here, check it starting at 4:00: Dawkins on religion - General - Al Jazeera English )

Considering that God of the Old Testament is the God of the Koran, and Jesus is Prophet and Messiah in Islam (though not divine), Dawkins says more than enough already to infuriate any "Muslim fundamentalist".
 
LowDown said:
Facing uncomfortable truths | The Jewish Chronicle



Heh.

Maybe Christians ought to behead a few of these guys to get some of the kind of fear and respect that Islam enjoys. It wouldn't take many -- most of these guys are cowards and poseurs who can be shut down by the least hint of risk.
Click to expand...

Whatever, think what you want, but it changes nothing.

Oh and BTW

"This forum is dedicated and limited to discussions of religion, faith, and spirituality. Threads/posts critical of religion and spiritual aspects are not allowed here and will result in a B/F/T Infraction + Thread Ban."

If people were actually interested in enforcing rules properly.
 
Last edited:
sawyerloggingon said:
I always thought it was odd how atheist hate Christianity but are pretty tolerant of other religions.
Click to expand...

I am an atheist, and I don't hate Christianity. People you are talking about are usually not just atheists (and sometimes not really atheists), but someone who have political issues with whatever side religious institutions of their countries are associated with. For example, in Russia, the same people who fought courageously for religious freedoms in the Soviet times are making "atheistic" speeches now, being disturbed by the newly found passionate love between the Orthodox Church and the Putin's government. They don't talk much about Judaism or Bahaism - for the obvious reason: neither is politically relevant.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
I always thought it was odd how atheist hate Christianity but are pretty tolerant of other religions.
Click to expand...

I find it odd how it's ok to denigrate the entire atheist population in the Religion forum but can post no challenge to religion. Seems to me this whole "treat others as you'd like to be treated" thing would come out. But words are wind I suppose.
 
LowDown said:
Heh.

Maybe Christians ought to behead a few of these guys to get some of the kind of fear and respect that Islam enjoys. It wouldn't take many -- most of these guys are cowards and poseurs who can be shut down by the least hint of risk.
Click to expand...

Christians already did all that...
 
sawyerloggingon said:
I always thought it was odd how atheist hate Christianity but are pretty tolerant of other religions.
Click to expand...

I'm agnostic, so I can't speak for atheists, or even other agnostics, but I don't hate Christianity, I hate certain aspects of the belief. I also admire other aspects and acknowledge the positive contributions Christianity has made to our culture in the past. I do have a dislike for the tendency to choose to believe rather than know (when possible), or acknowledge when you don't know.

I also like and dislike aspects of Islam, Hinduism, Shinto and every other religion. However, I am more outspoken in my criticism of Christianity than the other religions because Christians are the ones in power in the USA. It is Christians (some Christians, not all Christians) who have limited my rights and my friends rights and try to use government to impose their beliefs on others, including children. No other religion has that power in the USA.

The other factor is all the bigotry and hate directed at Muslims in the USA in the last 15 years, which puts those of us who support civil liberties in the position of having to defend Muslims from falsehoods and discrimination.

Many Christians feel that the excesses of Christianity were all in the distant past. That is not how it feels to me. It was Christians (some Christians, not all Christians) that persecuted my grandparents in Eastern Europe, in the USA it was Christians that passed laws banning atheists from public office, Christians that censored movies and still control what you can say or do on broadcast TV and radio, Christians that forced me to recite their prayers when I was in public school and it is Christians who opposed gay rights every step of the way. Muslims never did those things to me or any other USA resident, even though they may have chosen to do the same if they had the power, but they don't, so they are not a problem for me personally or any other USA resident. (except for the occasional terrorist attack)
 
Last edited:
Cyrylek said:
I am not a big fan of Dr.Dawkins - either as a biologist or as a "popularizer of atheism", but this claim in The Jewish Chronicles is quite a distortion. The question was about relationship between the (literalist perception of) God of the Old Testament and the God of the Koran, the New Testament, "Hindu scriptures, etc - i.e. the "further (or independent)evolution" of that perception in the minds of millions of actual believers. Dawkins says he does know as much about the Koranic image of God, in passing - no more, no less
(Here, check it starting at 4:00: Dawkins on religion - General - Al Jazeera English )

Considering that God of the Old Testament is the God of the Koran, and Jesus is Prophet and Messiah in Islam (though not divine), Dawkins says more than enough already to infuriate any "Muslim fundamentalist".
Click to expand...

That would be credible if Dawkins had only ever been critical of the God of the Old Testament and had not also widely condemned other religions. It does make one wonder why he had not taken time to become more familiar with the God of the Koran considering how much Islam has been in the news and relevant to so much of what Dawkins considers to be religion inspired violence. Perhaps trashing Judeochristian belief keeps him too busy. Perhaps it is true that the new atheism is little more than a reaction to Christianity.

The interviewer got Dawkins to backpeddle quite a bit, managing to get him to admit that the vast majority of believers are good people who don't regard the description of God in the Old Testament to be all that germane to their beliefs, that they are people who believe in a 'grown up' version of God, as he put it. In his books and other writings I don't believe he makes that distinction, at least not in what I've seen quoted from them.

Regardless, it points to a problem that new atheists have, which is to quote scripture literally and then imply or state outright that that's what people believe and oh, how horrible. But in fact a religion is what believers make of it, not its scripture or any of it's other artifacts, which is subject to interpretation and changes in emphasis. Given that to be the case it seems that not even Dawkins finds that much to object to about it, according to what he says in this interview.
 
Last edited:
Hard Truth said:
I'm agnostic, so I can't speak for atheists, or even other agnostics, but I don't hate Christianity, I hate certain aspects of the belief. I also admire other aspects and acknowledge the positive contributions Christianity has made to our culture in the past. I do have a dislike for the tendency to choose to believe rather than know (when possible), or acknowledge when you don't know.

I also like and dislike aspects of Islam, Hinduism, Shinto and every other religion. However, I am more outspoken in my criticism of Christianity than the other religions because Christians are the ones in power in the USA. It is Christians (some Christians, not all Christians) who have limited my rights and my friends rights and try to use government to impose their beliefs on others, including children. No other religion has that power in the USA.

The other factor is all the bigotry and hate directed at Muslims in the USA in the last 15 years, which puts those of us who support civil liberties in the position of having to defend Muslims from falsehoods and discrimination.

Many Christians feel that the excesses of Christianity were all in the distant past. That is not how it feels to me. It was Christians (some Christians, not all Christians) that persecuted my grandparents in Eastern Europe, in the USA it was Christians that passed laws banning atheists from public office, Christians that censored movies and still control what you can say or do on broadcast TV and radio, Christians that forced me to recite their prayers when I was in public school and it is Christians who opposed gay rights every step of the way. Muslims never did those things to me or any other USA resident, even though they may have chosen to do the same if they had the power, but they don't, so they are not a problem for me personally or any other USA resident. (except for the occasional terrorist attack)
Click to expand...

Yes, I think we are all aware of the premium that many people place on being a victim of this or that oppressor. Not being a victim is almost intolerable to people of a certain ideological strain since so much depends on it for personal status. If you're not a victim then you must be an oppressor, a bad person, according to their ideas. Christians are certainly some of the safer oppressors to complain about so it's no mystery why atheism is becoming popular within certain ideological groups. It's a cheap way to claim victimhood. It is, of course, a dead end because in relieving one of one's responsibly for one's own failings the role of the victim is exactly the opposite of empowering. One might indeed have been victimized, but one should never be a victim.
 
Hard Truth said:
I'm agnostic, so I can't speak for atheists, or even other agnostics, but I don't hate Christianity, I hate certain aspects of the belief. I also admire other aspects and acknowledge the positive contributions Christianity has made to our culture in the past. I do have a dislike for the tendency to choose to believe rather than know (when possible), or acknowledge when you don't know.

I also like and dislike aspects of Islam, Hinduism, Shinto and every other religion. However, I am more outspoken in my criticism of Christianity than the other religions because Christians are the ones in power in the USA. It is Christians (some Christians, not all Christians) who have limited my rights and my friends rights and try to use government to impose their beliefs on others, including children. No other religion has that power in the USA.

The other factor is all the bigotry and hate directed at Muslims in the USA in the last 15 years, which puts those of us who support civil liberties in the position of having to defend Muslims from falsehoods and discrimination.

Many Christians feel that the excesses of Christianity were all in the distant past. That is not how it feels to me. It was Christians (some Christians, not all Christians) that persecuted my grandparents in Eastern Europe, in the USA it was Christians that passed laws banning atheists from public office, Christians that censored movies and still control what you can say or do on broadcast TV and radio, Christians that forced me to recite their prayers when I was in public school and it is Christians who opposed gay rights every step of the way. Muslims never did those things to me or any other USA resident, even though they may have chosen to do the same if they had the power, but they don't, so they are not a problem for me personally or any other USA resident. (except for the occasional terrorist attack)
Click to expand...

Except for that one little detail, LMAO
 
LowDown said:
Perhaps it is true that the new atheism is little more than a reaction to Christianity.
Click to expand...

Well, the "new atheism" is, basically, four guys who sought (successfully) public attention by resurrecting the once-popular notion that religion should be confronted and attacked, in a manner as scurrilous as possible, rather than regarded with skepticism and detached curiosity (as any "old atheist", myself included, would do).

I don't see religion as an adequate source of morality, and neither do I ascribe any other "utility" to it, in the manner of some other (cynical and elitist) atheists. It's just that the spectacle of supposedly intelligent people telling countless believers that the content of their inner lives isn't worth a fig, and has to be discarded without regret for their own good- - - it strikes me as vulgar and shallow.

(And rather surprising, coming from one of the four - the late Christopher Hitchens. He was actually kinda brilliant).
 
sawyerloggingon said:
I always thought it was odd how atheist hate Christianity but are pretty tolerant of other religions.
Click to expand...

I suspect it's because they are comfortable with Christians, as that is who most of them interact with on a daily basis. Look at like this: who are you most likely to insult or get into an altercation with? Someone who you know, that you are reasonably sure won't get crazy on your ass and kill you, or someone you don't know, who has a belief system you aren't thoroughly familiar with, and you think they *may* think you are inferior? Are you more likely to insult a family member to their face, or a stranger?
 
LowDown said:
Yes, I think we are all aware of the premium that many people place on being a victim of this or that oppressor. Not being a victim is almost intolerable to people of a certain ideological strain since so much depends on it for personal status. If you're not a victim then you must be an oppressor, a bad person, according to their ideas. Christians are certainly some of the safer oppressors to complain about so it's no mystery why atheism is becoming popular within certain ideological groups. It's a cheap way to claim victimhood. It is, of course, a dead end because in relieving one of one's responsibly for one's own failings the role of the victim is exactly the opposite of empowering. One might indeed have been victimized, but one should never be a victim.
Click to expand...

War on Christmas
War on Marriage
Blah blah blah

Don't think that "playing the victim" is isolated to the atheists you despise so much.
 
Hard Truth "Muslims never did those things to me or any other USA resident, even though they may have chosen to do the same if they had the power, but they don't, so they are not a problem for me personally or any other USA resident. (except for the occasional terrorist attack)"

sawyerloggingon said:
Except for that one little detail, LMAO
Click to expand...

Let's see, two thousand or so USA residents were killed by 17 Muslims 12 years ago. Our government has done more than enough to prevent more attacks by them since then. Christians commit more murders than that here every year. True, most of the murders are not motivated by religion, but the 9/11 attacks were motivated by politics, not religion also. The odds of a USA resident getting killed by a Muslim terrorist is miniscule, despite the widespread public perception that it is a major threat.

In many conservative Christian parts of the USA gays still face harassment and the threat of violence every day. Atheists are also still subject to harassment and discrimination and conservative Christian sexual taboos are imposed on employees in many occupations, such as the moral codes that many K-12 school teachers are forced to accept to be employed in may jurisdictions. To avoid Christian censored TV and radio requires getting a cable or dish subscription or internet viewing.

In summary, for the non-religious and people who do do not subscribe to conservative Christian ideals of proper forms of artistic expression and sexual behavior, Christians have a constant negative impact on our lives. Muslims do not. That is why many of us will continue to struggle against Judeo/Christian domination of the law and the ideology behind it. Its nothing personal against most individual Christians.
 
lizzie said:
I suspect it's because they are comfortable with Christians, as that is who most of them interact with on a daily basis. Look at like this: who are you most likely to insult or get into an altercation with? Someone who you know, that you are reasonably sure won't get crazy on your ass and kill you, or someone you don't know, who has a belief system you aren't thoroughly familiar with, and you think they *may* think you are inferior? Are you more likely to insult a family member to their face, or a stranger?
Click to expand...

A fair point but it still seems to me they cut other religions alot of slack while lambasting Christians with great zeal.
 
Hard Truth said:
Hard Truth "Muslims never did those things to me or any other USA resident, even though they may have chosen to do the same if they had the power, but they don't, so they are not a problem for me personally or any other USA resident. (except for the occasional terrorist attack)"



Let's see, two thousand or so USA residents were killed by 17 Muslims 12 years ago. Our government has done more than enough to prevent more attacks by them since then. Christians commit more murders than that here every year. True, most of the murders are not motivated by religion, but the 9/11 attacks were motivated by politics, not religion also. The odds of a USA resident getting killed by a Muslim terrorist is miniscule, despite the widespread public perception that it is a major threat.

In many conservative Christian parts of the USA gays still face harassment and the threat of violence every day. Atheists are also still subject to harassment and discrimination and conservative Christian sexual taboos are imposed on employees in many occupations, such as the moral codes that many K-12 school teachers are forced to accept to be employed in may jurisdictions. To avoid Christian censored TV and radio requires getting a cable or dish subscription or internet viewing.

In summary, for the non-religious and people who do do not subscribe to conservative Christian ideals of proper forms of artistic expression and sexual behavior, Christians have a constant negative impact on our lives. Muslims do not. That is why many of us will continue to struggle against Judeo/Christian domination of the law and the ideology behind it. Its nothing personal against most individual Christians.
Click to expand...

Talk to me when Christians start hijacking planes, slitting the throats of flight attendants and flying planes into buildings. Talk to me when they put on suicide vest and blow up crowds of innocent people. Until then talk to the hand as they say.
 
Cyrylek said:
I am an atheist, and I don't hate Christianity. People you are talking about are usually not just atheists (and sometimes not really atheists), but someone who have political issues with whatever side religious institutions of their countries are associated with. For example, in Russia, the same people who fought courageously for religious freedoms in the Soviet times are making "atheistic" speeches now, being disturbed by the newly found passionate love between the Orthodox Church and the Putin's government. They don't talk much about Judaism or Bahaism - for the obvious reason: neither is politically relevant.
Click to expand...

Very interesting. An acknowledge atheist promoting that some atheist are really just claiming to be atheist, which in truth, doesn't make them one. The same is true with Christians. Many who claim to be Christian really aren't. It isn't a birthright like many think. I am an acknowledged Christian and have often made the same argument when all Christians are criticized for the actions of one or a few "proclaimed" Christians. Westboro Baptist comes to mind as does the wack job in Gainesville, FL that likes to make a big deal of burning a Koran.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
A fair point but it still seems to me they cut other religions alot of slack while lambasting Christians with great zeal.
Click to expand...

As I was saying, it's because they are comfortable with Christians. They know that Christians in this culture are generally mild-mannered, and although they may believe certain things are wrong, they won't act on it. In Muslim cultures, otoh, say the wrong thing, and you could lose your life over it. Steal, and you can lose a hand. Screw around on your spouse, and you may well get stoned to death. Iow, it's the fear factor.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Talk to me when Christians start hijacking planes, slitting the throats of flight attendants and flying planes into buildings. Talk to me when they put on suicide vest and blow up crowds of innocent people. Until then talk to the hand as they say.
Click to expand...

Let's imagine that there are one million Muslims willing to do such things, which is a wild exaggeration, that would still be .05% of all Muslims. That's point zero five.

What are the odds that a USA resident will be the victim of Muslim terrorist violence? That's hard to determine because the odds are so miniscule.

Now how many Christians in the USA support oppression of gays? 11%-51% depending on how you define the terms.

Remember the Janet Jackson nipple incident? It was nearly all Christians that successfully pressured the FCC and legislators to increase the amount of broadcast censorship in the wake of thatincident.

Christians are much more of a threat to many USA residents freedom and safety than Muslims.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
A fair point but it still seems to me they cut other religions alot of slack while lambasting Christians with great zeal.
Click to expand...

American atheists are, generally, more geared to blast Christianity because it's the most prevalent. When something is more prevalent, it's more likely to occur and, thus, more likely to be criticized. Get over it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom