A World without Religion?

Paschendale said:

Every part of this statement is incorrect. The Christian ideals of kindness, generosity, peace, and charity are echoed in nearly every other culture in all of human history. These are human ideals, not western, not Christian, not even modern. These are the ideals that made us survive while other early forms of humans died out. These concepts predate language, even.

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Not in Greco-Roman culture, not in Germanic culture, not in Keltic culture, not in Chinese culture.

Like I say, some notions of the Golden Rule arose in lots of cultures, but they usually excluded the other, the foreigner, the helpless. Greeks invented the Golden Rule, but it didn't apply to "barbarians" -- i.e., non-Greeks. They could be robbed and enslaved with impunity. The same applied to the Romans. Romans good, nonRomans, open game. Same for the Norse. Same for the Jews, for the most part, though at its finest it developed an obligation to strangers which was remarkable in the ancient world.


Exodus 23:9 You shall not oppress a stranger; you know the heart of a stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Beautiful stuff.

As to loving your enemy that is unique to Chrisitanity. It isn't even found in Judaism (though it can be somewhat intuited in the story of Jonah). It was considered crazy by the Roman world when Christianity first appeared.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that nonchristians were particularly cruel or inferior. But they were parochial and partisan. Christianity universalized ones ethical obligations to all people and that was a remarkable development in axiology

Metaphysical expression and organization are human nature. It takes someone of such ideologically driven disconnect as communists to even pretend that human nature can be wiped out.

Paschendale said:

Every part of this statement is incorrect. The Christian ideals of kindness, generosity, peace, and charity are echoed in nearly every other culture in all of human history. These are human ideals, not western, not Christian, not even modern. These are the ideals that made us survive while other early forms of humans died out. These concepts predate language, even.

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I totally agree with this. I have been brought up as a good little Church of England boy (sang in the choir - went to Sunday School - the whole bit) and been given to understand that every human virtue comes from God, via Christianity (or at least, the Abrahamic religions). I am still unconvinced due to the following circumstances.

The two most important adults in my life have been my mother and my uncle (my dad died when I was young). I believe that my mother is a good woman who would not knowingly do anyone any harm. She spends most of her free time doing unpaid charity work - via the church and community organisations.

My uncle is a very successful QC (even though he is only in his late thirties) who donates two out of five days pro bono for people who could not otherwise afford his very expensive skills. I believe that he is also a good man who believes in helping others as much as he can. He has done loads of stuff for me - much more than you would expect from someone who is only my dad's brother. Like when I was 14, he took me around the world - something which was not only fun, but showed me there was more to the human condition than a middle class English lifestyle.

The difference between these two people lies in the facts that my mum is a Christian, and moderately religious - inasmuch as she attends church services often, if not regularly, and has tried to teach me 'Christian values'. Whereas my uncle is an Atheist, who professes no belief in a Supreme Being, and certainly no allegiance to any religious organisation. Of the two, my mother is the less tolerant, the more judgmental, and the more demanding that my behaviour meets her standards. I respect her spiritual beliefs, but I cannot help but wonder if - good person that she is - she might not be a better one without the limitations imposed by her religious beliefs. As I remember him, my dad was not religious, and like my uncle, was a lot easier to get on with than my mum. Don't get the idea that I am criticising my mum, it is just that she seems less flexible, and more judgmental, than either my dad was, or my uncle is.

So I am wondering what makes a person a good and caring human being. Is it religious beliefs or their innate humanity? Or, to put it another way - is it the singer or the song?

Wake said:

There was a comment by Hitchens once where he said he'd never try to stamp out religion, and he said when Richard Dawkins heard that (they were talking) Hitchens never forgot the face he made. (This instance was in a movie documenting the debate between Christopher Hitchens and Pastor Douglas Wilson—the DVD was titled Collision.)

So, that got me thinking. What would the world be like if there weren't any religions at all? What do you think?

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If only all atheists were as tolerant as Hitchens, the world would be a better place.

Peter Grimm said:

And Ancient Greece was some sort of paradise? It was certainly a dog-eat-dog world, where the strong ruled the day.

Ancient Greeks held slaves. The weak were forced in to slavery.

Girls got married in their early teens. Men got married in their 30's. Marriages were arranged by the parents. (Girls are generally more helpless)

Married women hardly left the home. They were only to associate with other married women, never with men.

The average Greek lived in a one or two room house.

Only aristocratic males could vote or go to school. Well, that is unless you were Hetaera, a group of women trained as prostitutes, who were educated outside the home on things like entertaining and conversation. They were meant to sit and have conversations with men during long food festivals and therefore needed to have a higher education.

Wealthy men ran the government, and only men.

Around 620 BC Draco, the lawgiver, set down the first known written law of Ancient Greece. These laws were so harsh that his name gave rise to our English word "Daconian" meaning an unreasonably harsh law.

However, not all laws were "draconian."

Rape was punishable by a fine of 100 just drachmas.

Murder was punishable by exile.

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Before the enlightenment this was very similar to Christian Europe. The Enlightenment was the secular movement which civilized the Christian world.

Wake said:

There was a comment by Hitchens once where he said he'd never try to stamp out religion, and he said when Richard Dawkins heard that (they were talking) Hitchens never forgot the face he made. (This instance was in a movie documenting the debate between Christopher Hitchens and Pastor Douglas Wilson—the DVD was titled Collision.)

So, that got me thinking. What would the world be like if there weren't any religions at all? What do you think?

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I think we couldn't be the same creature.

Obviously, you'd have to wonder what the historical death toll might be, sans the scapegoat par excellence.

It was Christianity which civilized the world.

Dezaad said:

Before the enlightenment this was very similar to Christian Europe. The Enlightenment was the secular movement which civilized the Christian world.

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Wake said:

There was a comment by Hitchens once where he said he'd never try to stamp out religion, and he said when Richard Dawkins heard that (they were talking) Hitchens never forgot the face he made. (This instance was in a movie documenting the debate between Christopher Hitchens and Pastor Douglas Wilson—the DVD was titled Collision.)

So, that got me thinking. What would the world be like if there weren't any religions at all? What do you think?

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well, we have in our history nations that have banished religion. what were they like?

head of joaquin said:

Not in Greco-Roman culture, not in Germanic culture, not in Keltic culture, not in Chinese culture.

Like I say, some notions of the Golden Rule arose in lots of cultures, but they usually excluded the other, the foreigner, the helpless. Greeks invented the Golden Rule, but it didn't apply to "barbarians" -- i.e., non-Greeks. They could be robbed and enslaved with impunity. The same applied to the Romans. Romans good, nonRomans, open game. Same for the Norse. Same for the Jews, for the most part, though at its finest it developed an obligation to strangers which was remarkable in the ancient world.


Exodus 23:9 You shall not oppress a stranger; you know the heart of a stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Beautiful stuff.

As to loving your enemy that is unique to Chrisitanity. It isn't even found in Judaism (though it can be somewhat intuited in the story of Jonah). It was considered crazy by the Roman world when Christianity first appeared.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that nonchristians were particularly cruel or inferior. But they were parochial and partisan. Christianity universalized ones ethical obligations to all people and that was a remarkable development in axiology

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Yes christianity got rid of slaves and made everyone like everyone else of different ethnic origins. I am sure the natives of Africa, N and S america, the Pacific islands "saved" by missionarries, the Arabs "liberated" during the crusades and countless others would agree with this statement 100%.
Christianity has been no better nor any worse than any other religion in this sense. Modern christianity (well not all of it but most) Is much more tolerant than it has ever been of others but that is increadibly recent not historical.

Quag said:

Yes christianity got rid of slaves and made everyone like everyone else of different ethnic origins. I am sure the natives of Africa, N and S america, the Pacific islands "saved" by missionarries, the Arabs "liberated" during the crusades and countless others would agree with this statement 100%.
Christianity has been no better nor any worse than any other religion in this sense. Modern christianity (well not all of it but most) Is much more tolerant than it has ever been of others but that is increadibly recent not historical.

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Yes, yes, we know that Christianity was used politically for all sorts of mischief. It misses the point. The IDEA that it's wrong to exploit the poor, the weak, the other didn't exist in the Graeco-Roman world. Not only was it not wrong to do so, it was right.

So the idea of obligations to others (including mirabile dictu one's enemies) had an historical origin and that origin is in the ethical developments that came out of Christianity. It did not come out of Greek, Roman, German, Celtic, culture. And it spread around the world (via ironically the very missionaries who I agree engaged in pretty unpleasant practices).

I think that's a helluva contribution to a better world. History is complex, not single vision. Christianity was used for some bad purposes, but it revolutionized and universalized ethics toward others.

Dezaad said:

Before the enlightenment this was very similar to Christian Europe. The Enlightenment was the secular movement which civilized the Christian world.

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That's true, but the Enlightenment never would have happened were it not for the universalization of ethics, which resulted from Christianity. That's why it's no coincidence that the Enlightment occurred in Europe, with a millenium and a half of Christian culture behind it.

Wake said:

There was a comment by Hitchens once where he said he'd never try to stamp out religion, and he said when Richard Dawkins heard that (they were talking) Hitchens never forgot the face he made. (This instance was in a movie documenting the debate between Christopher Hitchens and Pastor Douglas Wilson—the DVD was titled Collision.)

So, that got me thinking. What would the world be like if there weren't any religions at all? What do you think?

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The hundreds of years spend in dark ages, would have actually been boom years for science and we would now roam freely in our galaxy and our lifespan would have been much longer that it is today.

head of joaquin said:

That's true, but the Enlightenment never would have happened were it not for the universalization of ethics, which resulted from Christianity. That's why it's no coincidence that the Enlightment occurred in Europe, with a millenium and a half of Christian culture behind it.

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The millenium and a half of christian culture is what caused the enlightenment? That christian culture is what held mankind back and demonized science for 1500 years. We eventually woke up and shattered the chains of that BS, and you want to accredit that to christianity?

engert said:

The hundreds of years spend in dark ages, would have actually been boom years for science and we would now roam freely in our galaxy and our lifespan would have been much longer that it is today.

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If I could like this 1000 times, I would. I feel so cheated out of over 1000 years worth of technology.

RabidAlpaca said:

The millenium and a half of christian culture is what caused the enlightenment? That christian culture is what held mankind back and demonized science for 1500 years. We eventually woke up and shattered the chains of that BS, and you want to accredit that to christianity?



If I could like this 1000 times, I would. I feel so cheated out of over 1000 years worth of technology.

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Christianity was not enlightenment but mostly darkness. Darkness of the mind. If Christianity was so much enlightenment why were the truths of life, science and nature held as herecy for so long.

Its not burn baby burn ....it build baby build Your MIND

head of joaquin said:

Yes, yes, we know that Christianity was used politically for all sorts of mischief. It misses the point. The IDEA that it's wrong to exploit the poor, the weak, the other didn't exist in the Graeco-Roman world. Not only was it not wrong to do so, it was right.

So the idea of obligations to others (including mirabile dictu one's enemies) had an historical origin and that origin is in the ethical developments that came out of Christianity. It did not come out of Greek, Roman, German, Celtic, culture. And it spread around the world (via ironically the very missionaries who I agree engaged in pretty unpleasant practices).

I think that's a helluva contribution to a better world. History is complex, not single vision. Christianity was used for some bad purposes, but it revolutionized and universalized ethics toward others.

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Completely false. Peace, ethics, and treating the poor with respect was not invented by the christians. You should read up on a little thing called Buddhism

Wake said:

There was a comment by Hitchens once where he said he'd never try to stamp out religion, and he said when Richard Dawkins heard that (they were talking) Hitchens never forgot the face he made. (This instance was in a movie documenting the debate between Christopher Hitchens and Pastor Douglas Wilson—the DVD was titled Collision.)

So, that got me thinking. What would the world be like if there weren't any religions at all? What do you think?

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This was answered literally 6 years ago:

NSFW
Go God Go (Season 10, Episode 12) - Full Episode Player - South Park Studios

RabidAlpaca said:

The millenium and a half of christian culture is what caused the enlightenment? That christian culture is what held mankind back and demonized science for 1500 years. We eventually woke up and shattered the chains of that BS, and you want to accredit that to christianity?

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I don't think you grasp the complexity of history and how cultural movements set the stage for change. The essence of the Enlightment was the rise of universal values -- it rejected parochialism and asserted that there are certain verities to human existence, experience, and empirical knowledge (leave aside the self-serving Eurocentric nature of some of that). That idea didn't come out of nowhere. Indeed, it was an idea that could not have been thought by a Greek or Roman or ancient German. But it was thought as Christian culture spread, with a universal message about the brotherhood of all men.

I understand that Christianity was mostly anti-empirical (though you apparently know nothing about the 12th Century Renaissance and proto-scientists as Albertus Magnus), and had embedded in it traditions that discouraged material progress. But that's not the whole story. The Enlightenment was more than just the rise of empiricism. It was the rise of universal values, which came directly from Christian culture.

If I could like this 1000 times, I would. I feel so cheated out of over 1000 years worth of technology.

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You just don't get it -- technology didn't come out of nowhere. It came out of the culture that developed in Europe, including Christian culture. There was no anti-science religious culture in India, yet it didn't produce 1000 years of technology. Why is that? Science and technology cumulative and it built upon a lot of cultural traditions and material culture. So you can stop feeling cheated. The cultures of Greece and Rome would not have produced anything like modern technology if Christianity hadn't come along. They problem would have just keep fighting each and enslaving each other from marginal gains.

Leo said:

The difference between these two people lies in the facts that my mum is a Christian, and moderately religious - inasmuch as she attends church services often, if not regularly, and has tried to teach me 'Christian values'. Whereas my uncle is an Atheist, who professes no belief in a Supreme Being, and certainly no allegiance to any religious organisation. Of the two, my mother is the less tolerant, the more judgmental, and the more demanding that my behaviour meets her standards. I respect her spiritual beliefs, but I cannot help but wonder if - good person that she is - she might not be a better one without the limitations imposed by her religious beliefs. As I remember him, my dad was not religious, and like my uncle, was a lot easier to get on with than my mum. Don't get the idea that I am criticising my mum, it is just that she seems less flexible, and more judgmental, than either my dad was, or my uncle is.

So I am wondering what makes a person a good and caring human being. Is it religious beliefs or their innate humanity? Or, to put it another way - is it the singer or the song?

Click to expand...

It's the Composer.

We choose for ourselves our behaviors, which include "goodness" and "caring."

Wake said:

There was a comment by Hitchens once where he said he'd never try to stamp out religion, and he said when Richard Dawkins heard that (they were talking) Hitchens never forgot the face he made. (This instance was in a movie documenting the debate between Christopher Hitchens and Pastor Douglas Wilson—the DVD was titled Collision.)

So, that got me thinking. What would the world be like if there weren't any religions at all? What do you think?

Click to expand...

It's just part of human nature to *believe* in a belief system, IMO. So if there was no religion, man would chose any other kind of philosophy that is just as much based on myth as religion is, and serves as a societal catalyst, fills the role of binding society together -- but with different outcomes.

Recent examples in Europe's 19th and 20th century, when Christianity had been weakened due to enlightenment, were ideologies such as nationalism, racism, Marxism/communism, and finally the murderous apotheosis of these "religions without God": Nazism. Nazism has murdered more people in 12 years than Christianity has in almost 2000 years.

The point can be made that the rise of these ideologies, which are not any more rational, empirical or scientific than religion is, is a bad side-effect of enlightenment (cross reference: "Dialectics of Enlightenment"). That doesn't mean enlightenment was avoidable, or that enlightenment is a bad thing. Absolutely not, it was a great achievement. But you have to keep in mind that when you effectively shatter old myths, new myths will take their place. And that can backfire big time.

head of joaquin said:

Yes, yes, we know that Christianity was used politically for all sorts of mischief. It misses the point. The IDEA that it's wrong to exploit the poor, the weak, the other didn't exist in the Graeco-Roman world. Not only was it not wrong to do so, it was right.

So the idea of obligations to others (including mirabile dictu one's enemies) had an historical origin and that origin is in the ethical developments that came out of Christianity. It did not come out of Greek, Roman, German, Celtic, culture. And it spread around the world (via ironically the very missionaries who I agree engaged in pretty unpleasant practices).

I think that's a helluva contribution to a better world. History is complex, not single vision. Christianity was used for some bad purposes, but it revolutionized and universalized ethics toward others.

Click to expand...

Actually many cultures had similar ideas, check out the indigenous people of the Chatham islands.
I am not sure what you are trying to get at though,
Considering all peoples equal regardless of race is christian? Again see the Chatham islands
This despite the fact that it was totally ignored by the vast majority of christians untill science started to show that we all were the same, after spending much time trying to prove that the nationality of the scientists themselves were the superior race based on their "christian" ideals?
I am sorry I do not see this revolutionizing or universalizing of ethics towards others, I do agree that the early christian church was very tolerant, this is true of almost all new cults, untill they become the majority or gain enough political/military power to no longer do so.

Quag said:

Actually many cultures had similar ideas, check out the indigenous people of the Chatham islands.
I am not sure what you are trying to get at though,
Considering all peoples equal regardless of race is christian? Again see the Chatham islands
This despite the fact that it was totally ignored by the vast majority of christians untill science started to show that we all were the same, after spending much time trying to prove that the nationality of the scientists themselves were the superior race based on their "christian" ideals?
I am sorry I do not see this revolutionizing or universalizing of ethics towards others, I do agree that the early christian church was very tolerant, this is true of almost all new cults, untill they become the majority or gain enough political/military power to no longer do so.

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I think you've missed the entire point of Christian ethics: they ARE universal and were from the start. That was unique in the ancient world. And that, over time, changed history.

The reason you today think that all people everywhere are entitled to certain basic human rights is because of Christianity. That idea was totally alien to the ancient world (though Judaism started to develop it and of course influenced Christianity in that regard).

This is the most beautiful statement of ethics in the ancient world -- the Romans would have laughed at it:

Exodus 22:21 You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

An incredible leap in ethical thinking!

German guy said:

It's just part of human nature to *believe* in a belief system, IMO. So if there was no religion, man would chose any other kind of philosophy that is just as much based on myth as religion is, and serves as a societal catalyst, fills the role of binding society together -- but with different outcomes.

Recent examples in Europe's 19th and 20th century, when Christianity had been weakened due to enlightenment, were ideologies such as nationalism, racism, Marxism/communism, and finally the murderous apotheosis of these "religions without God": Nazism. Nazism has murdered more people in 12 years than Christianity has in almost 2000 years.

The point can be made that the rise of these ideologies, which are not any more rational, empirical or scientific than religion is, is a bad side-effect of enlightenment (cross reference: "Dialectics of Enlightenment"). That doesn't mean enlightenment was avoidable, or that enlightenment is a bad thing. Absolutely not, it was a great achievement. But you have to keep in mind that when you effectively shatter old myths, new myths will take their place. And that can backfire big time.

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Huh. Very interesting. Hadn't thought of it that way before..

head of joaquin said:

I think you've missed the entire point of Christian ethics: they ARE universal and were from the start. That was unique in the ancient world. And that, over time, changed history.

The reason you today think that all people everywhere are entitled to certain basic human rights is because of Christianity. That idea was totally alien to the ancient world (though Judaism started to develop it and of course influenced Christianity in that regard).

This is the most beautiful statement of ethics in the ancient world -- the Romans would have laughed at it:

Exodus 22:21 You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

An incredible leap in ethical thinking!

Click to expand...

No you are making the claim they are unique I am saying they were neither unique nor were they actually applied by christians except when they were a persecuted minority and that was only due to necessity.

If you asked any christian after christianity became the religion of Rome they would have laughed just as heartily as anyone who worshipped Jupiter. Christians didnt invent anything in this regard.

wolfman24 said:

Christianity was not enlightenment but mostly darkness. Darkness of the mind. If Christianity was so much enlightenment why were the truths of life, science and nature held as herecy for so long.

Its not burn baby burn ....it build baby build Your MIND

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This is so ignorant of history, it is almost unbelievable.

Religion from the early days of Christianity and on to the Muslim university's of North and West Africa was a leader in science for hundreds of years. From the early middle ages to the renaissance religion was pushing the boundaries of science in western society. This is an undeniable truth.

Wake said:

What would the world be like if there weren't any religions at all?

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It would be a world devoid of people.

As long as the world is inhabited by cognizant beings there will be belief systems of one sort or another.