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Why the need to pray in the classroom?

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RepublicanMcDuc

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Whenever the subject of prayer in public schools is discussed, someone usually suggests alternatives to teacher-led prayer such as moments of silence or allowing students to pray out loud at the beginning of the day.

My question is simple. Why can't this be done on the students' own time before the school day? There is nothing stopping a student (or a group of students) from saying a prayer as they head to class. What difference does it make?

My own take is that the main reason behind this desire is to provide the praying students with a captive audience. If students of other faiths and non-believers are forced to witness the prayers, then maybe they will be influenced and possibly convert.

But that might not be fair. Perhaps there is an entirely different motivation or reason behind it all. I'm willing to listen.

By saying all of this, I don't intend to criticize those who think a certain way. I just want to have a better understanding of that thinking.
 
RepublicanMcDuc said:
Whenever the subject of prayer in public schools is discussed, someone usually suggests alternatives to teacher-led prayer such as moments of silence or allowing students to pray out loud at the beginning of the day.

My question is simple. Why can't this be done on the students' own time before the school day? There is nothing stopping a student (or a group of students) from saying a prayer as they head to class. What difference does it make?

My own take is that the main reason behind this desire is to provide the praying students with a captive audience. If students of other faiths and non-believers are forced to witness the prayers, then maybe they will be influenced and possibly convert.

But that might not be fair. Perhaps there is an entirely different motivation or reason behind it all. I'm willing to listen.

By saying all of this, I don't intend to criticize those who think a certain way. I just want to have a better understanding of that thinking.
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I think that is absolutely correct. They aren't satisfied with just praying, they want to be seen doing it.

School is compulsory for all citizens, therefore we can not allow them to force their religion on everyone. If they want to have a before school prayer group, or say a prayer themselves in class, that's fine. But disrupting learning for that is unacceptable.
 
Unless the religious sites are willing to trade and have strict atheists inside their sites rehearsing their pure scientific beliefs before preaching starts, there is no reason for this to be a one way situation. The matter is simple really. If one is forewarned that attempts shall be made to influence their previous held opinion then resistance is higher.

Keep religion out of schools so as science should have its fair time influencing and opening up the minds of the student.
 
I don't mind a minute of silence. It is a good way to calm kids down to ready them for schoolwork IMHO. What they think about in that minute is up to them.
 
DDD said:
Keep religion out of schools so as science should have its fair time influencing and opening up the minds of the student.
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What does that mean?
 
Some religions require prayer prior to, during, or after specific actions, or at certain times of the day. Allowing a student the means to do what their religion dictates would seem to be the issue, IMO, not providing the praying student with a captive audience.

I went to high school with a guy who steadfastly believed he needed to pray 5 times a day, as do many others of the Muslim faith. He would go into the guy's locker room at the appropriate times and find a fairly private corner in which to perform the prayer ritual. The class schedule structure had him scheduled to be in classes during one of the designated prayer intervals, so he and his family spoke with the administration regarding the requirements. He was allowed to leave class at the appropriate time with the rest room pass, do the prayer ritual, and return. In order to make up for the missed class time he sacrificed part of his lunch hour and attended a "study session" for the class he had to miss a portion of.

I guess the point is, I don't know necessarily that the students themselves want an audience. For them, performing the rituals of their religion is much the same as the kid who leaves class at 10:30am everyday to take his ADHD medication. It's a way of life, a necessity for them. I have never been an incredibly religious person, but I observed many of my more religious friends in high school finding time to pray...whether before eating, after hearing something tragic during announcements, before taking a major exam, etc.

In fact, I distinctly remember a girl asking my Spanish teacher if she could lead interested students in a prayer the day the twin towers were hit. The teacher hesitated, but then offered to let the girl lead a prayer in the hallway, and only with students interested in joining her. One kid complained and tried to get the teacher in trouble, but many of us (including the non-praying group) fought for her and she ended up getting what amounted to a slap on the wrist.
 
What I find most ironic is that Jesus was very clear about the nature of prayer. He stated it as a private conversation between the individual and God and to not be conducted as a spectacle for the ears of others.

How many Christians actually follow Jesus in this manner and how many are diametrically opposed to Him?
 
hfd said:
What does that mean?
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It means religion and science are usually not compatible and that each should have the full attention of their audiences on the time specifically reserved for them in their own time.
 
Gardener said:
What I find most ironic is that Jesus was very clear about the nature of prayer. He stated it as a private conversation between the individual and God and to not be conducted as a spectacle for the ears of others.

How many Christians actually follow Jesus in this manner and how many are diametrically opposed to Him?
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By following that manner I have abandoned religion.
 
DDD said:
It means religion and science are usually not compatible and that each should have the full attention of their audiences on the time specifically reserved for them in their own time.
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What do you consider science to be?
 
Gardener said:
What I find most ironic is that Jesus was very clear about the nature of prayer. He stated it as a private conversation between the individual and God and to not be conducted as a spectacle for the ears of others.

How many Christians actually follow Jesus in this manner and how many are diametrically opposed to Him?
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That was my line. I agree with this totally. Praying in a public place or being demonstrative about showing your colors is ego nothing more. It saying here I am look at me. If you believe then your faith in God is your PRIVATE relationship. My daughter prays in school all the time (not a Christian) and I bet NO ONE in school would even know it. Because she does it inside her head.
 
The reason why one should pray in the classroom is because one needs all the help he can get to pass an exam :).

There is this joke I heard.

A boy 2 weeks before the final exam: I don't believe in God!
A boy when he receives the exam paper: God help me!
After the exam: Please God, let me pass the exam!
After the results: I don't believe in God!
 
Gardener said:
What I find most ironic is that Jesus was very clear about the nature of prayer. He stated it as a private conversation between the individual and God and to not be conducted as a spectacle for the ears of others.

How many Christians actually follow Jesus in this manner and how many are diametrically opposed to Him?
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The religious right isn't interested in what the gospels actually say -- just their weird politicized interpretation of it, which usually reverses what Jesus says, as in this case.

I view the religious right as heretics. As a Christian I want them to leave my religion alone and stop using it for their obnoxious social policies.
 
hfd said:
What do you consider science to be?
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The empircal organization of knowledge based on methodological naturalism in order to make useful predictions about things we care about, like curing diseases and building bridges that don't fall down.

What do you consider science to be?

I can't wait to hear this.
 
Gardener said:
What I find most ironic is that Jesus was very clear about the nature of prayer. He stated it as a private conversation between the individual and God and to not be conducted as a spectacle for the ears of others.

How many Christians actually follow Jesus in this manner and how many are diametrically opposed to Him?
Click to expand...


Actually, Jesus conducted a public class on how to pray.

I thought threads attacking religion and religious people weren't allowed on the religion board?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/105486-religious-discussions-forum.html
 
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joko104 said:
Actually, Jesus conducted a public class on how to pray.

I thought threads attacking religion and religious people weren't allowed on the religion board?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/105486-religious-discussions-forum.html
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Since he OP on another thread claims atheism is a religion and then criticizes it, I'm not sure you want to strictly construe this rule.

I'm a Christian, and I think it's appropriate to criticize what is to me mischaracterization of Christianity and science by the religious right on this board.
 
head of joaquin said:
Since he OP on another thread claims atheism is a religion and then criticizes it, I'm not sure you want to strictly construe this rule.

I'm a Christian, and I think it's appropriate to criticize what is to me mischaracterization of Christianity and science by the religious right on this board.
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Disguised or not, the actually discussion topic of this thread is simply:

"I hate freedom of speech by religious people, even if they are silent!"

Messages attacking known practice of virtually all religious people - ie praying - and claiming they should be punitively required to 100% hide their religion from anyone and everyone even when they are FORCED to be in school - is attacking religion and religious people....

...is no different than claiming gay students may have a right to be gay - as long as no one knows it and they never say anything about it to anyone or do anything to indicate they are gay.

Mandating no prayer - even personal and silent - is for many people mandating being atheist - because their religion requires prayer in all things. To demand they do not even silently pray is to demand they openly and falsely display and express they are atheists. Accordingly, people on this thread are demanding that all school children openly practice atheism instead of their actual religious beliefs.

BTW, since you believe showing religious belief is wrong, they why are YOU trying to ram YOUR "Christian" belief ways down everyone's throat? Pure hypocrisy, isn't it?

I am not Christian. But I do not demand they hide unseen and unheard like some on this thread do. They can silently prayer all they want and do not have to hide it from anyone. They also can wear huge "JESUS SAVES" on their shirts, crosses around their necks, and carry a gold leaf Bible under their arm. And if between classes some of them want to huddle and say a prayer - outloud - they can do that too. Can ask other students in the hall "are you saved?" or any and all other free speech and free speech rights everyone else has.
 
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joko104 said:
Disguised or not, the actually discussion topic of this thread is simply:

"I hate freedom of speech by religious people, even if they are silent!".
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No, I would say that the actual topic is: leave religion totally out of school since it's both bad for religion and bad for civil society.

I agree with that. I don't want my religion in schools or public arenas. It only diminishes it and causes conflict with other religions.

By the way there is no first amendment rights in school -- you're aware of that, correct? Every court case says so.
 
head of joaquin said:
No, I would say that the actual topic is: leave religion totally out of school since it's both bad for religion and bad for civil society.

I agree with that. I don't want my religion in schools or public arenas. It only diminishes it and causes conflict with other religions.

By the way there is no first amendment rights in school -- you're aware of that, correct? Every court case says so.
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Well that's just a blatant lie...

Speech Rights of Public School Students
 
tessaesque said:
You're still wrong. There are links on the site I posted to several modern cases in which the SCOTUS agreed that students in public schools (secondary and primary) DO have some level of 1st amendment protection.
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Read the law review article, understand the state of the law, don't just rely on cheap googles and report back in:

America' public school students, it may be said, do not shed their rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate1—except when they are in the classrooms or the hallways.2 At least, that is the way today' revisionists would rewrite Justice Fortas' forty-yearold pronouncement in Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District.3 Tinker— still rightly recognized by many as a sweeping declaration of First Amendment rights for young people— may stand (at least in some jurisdictions) for the empty proposition that as long as the government acts somewhere in the vicinity of reasonableness, it may freely, without fear of reprisal, regulate the content of student speech.4
 
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