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Judaism [W:141]

quantumechanic

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Hi all
I'm new to DP and have been posting primarily in the ME forum. I thought this thread would be a good idea to get to know some people from this forum and get them to know me.
Anyway, I'm not a real expert but as a former orthodox Jew (I'm an atheist now) I know quite a bit about Judaism and different Jewish sects so if you have any questions about Jewish habits, customs or anything of the sort, ask away.
 
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I don't have any questions about Judaism, but rather hope you are not going to confuse it with the occupation of Palestine, about which I feel very strongly. You did mention the Middle East! Welcome, whatever.
 
I don't have any questions about Judaism, but rather hope you are not going to confuse it with the occupation of Palestine, about which I feel very strongly. You did mention the Middle East! Welcome, whatever.

You sound like the one who is confused as revealed by your attempt to derail the intent of the thread by turning it into your typical ignorant and hateful screed against the existence of Israel.
 
Hi all
I'm new to DP and have been posting primarily in the ME forum. I thought this thread would be a good idea to get to know some people from this forum and get them to know me.
Anyway, I'm not a real expert but as a former orthodox Jew (I'm an atheist now) I know quite a bit about Judaism and different Jewish sects so if you have any questions about Jewish habits, customs or anything of the sort, ask away.

I'm assuming you always lived in Israel? There was a recent ITV documentary on jews living in Manchester and one lady was followed quite extensively as she travelled to meet her sister in Israel. This lady talked about how despite being born and brought up in the UK, she didn't feel at home until she got off the plane in Israel - talking of a calling and Israel as homeland.

Do you recognise or feel this yourself? (Not sure if the programme is still available)
 
You sound like the one who is confused as revealed by your attempt to derail the intent of the thread by turning it into your typical ignorant and hateful screed against the existence of Israel.

I was exactly the same about the Third Reich. I turned everything into my fanatical hatred of being bombed by racists, as did our Jewish neighbours next door, whose house was hit.
 
So you must recognise when it's not appropriate to the discussion.

I understand nazis. We beat them once, and we have to beat them again. They kill everyone. They are scumbags. I stick to simple statements, since you seem to have trouble with truth.
 
I understand nazis. We beat them once, and we have to beat them again. They kill everyone. They are scumbags. I stick to simple statements, since you seem to have trouble with truth.

You said you had no questions about Judaism, so instead of infecting this thread with your simple mindededness and attempts at co-opting it for your own agenda, perhaps you should just butt out.
 
Hi all
I'm new to DP and have been posting primarily in the ME forum. I thought this thread would be a good idea to get to know some people from this forum and get them to know me.
Anyway, I'm not a real expert but as a former orthodox Jew (I'm an atheist now) I know quite a bit about Judaism and different Jewish sects so if you have any questions about Jewish habits, customs or anything of the sort, ask away.
....I thought every jew was an atheist...
 
Hi all
I'm new to DP and have been posting primarily in the ME forum. I thought this thread would be a good idea to get to know some people from this forum and get them to know me.
Anyway, I'm not a real expert but as a former orthodox Jew (I'm an atheist now) I know quite a bit about Judaism and different Jewish sects so if you have any questions about Jewish habits, customs or anything of the sort, ask away.

Can you tell us of your journey from orthodox Jew to atheist?
 
I'm assuming you always lived in Israel? There was a recent ITV documentary on jews living in Manchester and one lady was followed quite extensively as she travelled to meet her sister in Israel. This lady talked about how despite being born and brought up in the UK, she didn't feel at home until she got off the plane in Israel - talking of a calling and Israel as homeland.

Do you recognise or feel this yourself? (Not sure if the programme is still available)

It kind of went the other way for me. Both my parents are british born so after my compulsory military service I lived in London for a couple of years. When I came back to Israel I felt for quite some time that I was out of my element. While Israel does feel like home, I can never shake the feeling that I connect better with non-Israelis (come to think of it, that might partly be the reason I'm posting here).
So, yes and no. Israel is home, but not in an I-feel-that-this-is-my-homeland kind of way, more along the lines of I-grew-up-here-and-this-is-what-I-know-and-feel-comfortable-with sort of way.
 
Huh?!
Are you serious?
why? haven't you seen the data? the majority of jews don't give a **** about religion or god or anything.

Congratulations! you graduated into a typical jew!
 
Can you tell us of your journey from orthodox Jew to atheist?
Sure, good idea.
I grew up in an orthodox neighberhood in a (mostly) orthodox city and went to an orthodox school. It was quite some time before I met anyone who disagreed with my indoctrinated thoughts, longer until I understood that there were Jews who didn't follow the faith for philosophical reasons (I'd thought they were just too lazy to adhere to all the rules and restrictions of orthodox Judaism) and even longer than that before I started to doubt my indoctrinated ideas myself.
At first, when thoughts like "how do I know that the 'talmud' is the word of god?" started occuring to me I chastised myself for having them. At first I tried sharing my doubts with my parents, teachers or friends but quickly gave that up when, in the best case scenario, they let me talk to some rabbi (who was supposed to have all the answers to my questions, but I usually just ended up with more) and in the worst case started treating me like I was a leper.
What followed was a difficult period where I tried suppressing these heretical thoughts, and kept telling myself that I was being tested, and failing, but the thoughts and questions persisted. Inidentally, I get really annoyed at people who accuse me of leaving the faith because of laziness since it was, hands down, the most difficult and traumatic event of my life, but back to the story...
So, during this difficult period of guilt and conflict I came across a short story by Isaac Asimov called "The Last Question". In the story (skip to the next paragraph if this sort of thing bores you) mankind builds increasingly powerful computers, and in every several generations asks the computer if it is possible to increase the entropy of the universe (thus preventing the end of the universe by the "big crunch") and in every generation the computer gives the same answer: "insufficient data for meaningful answer". Thus pass the generations until, to prevent their extinction by the end of the universe, humanity decides to unite itself with the ultimate computer, the AC. Just before the last human unites with the AC, he, one last time, asks the AC if it is possible to increase the entropy of the universe and once again recieves the answer: "insufficient data for meaningful answer". The last human unites with the AC, the universe collapses, and for several millenia the AC ponders the question until it finally finds the answer to the question, but with no one to report it to, decides to reveal it by reversing entropy. The story ends with the words "and the AC said 'let there be light' and there was light".
So, there I am with my doubts and general feelings of crap, and I finish this story, and... it's like something suddenly just... clicked. It finally occured to me that you just can't know. You can't know if god exists. If he does exist, you can't know what, or who, he is. You can't know if he cares about you, if he actually stands behind this or that religion or holy book... you simply can't know anything about religion is true, and I finally understood that I simply can't believe in something I can't know is true.
From there it was pretty much a downhill race. I had some difficult moments (some harsh, like fighting with my dad about going to temple, and some downright comical, like being scared of dying the week after the first time I violated the sabbath) and I wasn't sure what I was going to end up as but in the end of the process it turned out that what I believed in was atheism. It was ok though, by then I was content with just being... myself.
 
why? haven't you seen the data? the majority of jews don't give a **** about religion or god or anything.

Congratulations! you graduated into a typical jew!
Umm, that's not true.
I can't speak for the rest of the world but a survey from Jan 2012 showed that 80% of Israeli Jews believe in god (see here. It's in Hebrew, but you can get the gist of it through google translate).
Also, 8% of Israeli Jews are haredi, 12% are religious, 13% are traditional-religious, 25% are traditional and 42% are secular (see here).
Before you even begin to ask how many secular Jews believe in god, you have 58% of the Jewish Israeli population who are adherents of the faith, to some degree.
 
Sure, good idea.
I grew up in an orthodox neighberhood in a (mostly) orthodox city and went to an orthodox school. It was quite some time before I met anyone who disagreed with my indoctrinated thoughts, longer until I understood that there were Jews who didn't follow the faith for philosophical reasons (I'd thought they were just too lazy to adhere to all the rules and restrictions of orthodox Judaism) and even longer than that before I started to doubt my indoctrinated ideas myself.
At first, when thoughts like "how do I know that the 'talmud' is the word of god?" started occuring to me I chastised myself for having them. At first I tried sharing my doubts with my parents, teachers or friends but quickly gave that up when, in the best case scenario, they let me talk to some rabbi (who was supposed to have all the answers to my questions, but I usually just ended up with more) and in the worst case started treating me like I was a leper.
What followed was a difficult period where I tried suppressing these heretical thoughts, and kept telling myself that I was being tested, and failing, but the thoughts and questions persisted. Inidentally, I get really annoyed at people who accuse me of leaving the faith because of laziness since it was, hands down, the most difficult and traumatic event of my life, but back to the story...
So, during this difficult period of guilt and conflict I came across a short story by Isaac Asimov called "The Last Question". In the story (skip to the next paragraph if this sort of thing bores you) mankind builds increasingly powerful computers, and in every several generations asks the computer if it is possible to increase the entropy of the universe (thus preventing the end of the universe by the "big crunch") and in every generation the computer gives the same answer: "insufficient data for meaningful answer". Thus pass the generations until, to prevent their extinction by the end of the universe, humanity decides to unite itself with the ultimate computer, the AC. Just before the last human unites with the AC, he, one last time, asks the AC if it is possible to increase the entropy of the universe and once again recieves the answer: "insufficient data for meaningful answer". The last human unites with the AC, the universe collapses, and for several millenia the AC ponders the question until it finally finds the answer to the question, but with no one to report it to, decides to reveal it by reversing entropy. The story ends with the words "and the AC said 'let there be light' and there was light".
So, there I am with my doubts and general feelings of crap, and I finish this story, and... it's like something suddenly just... clicked. It finally occured to me that you just can't know. You can't know if god exists. If he does exist, you can't know what, or who, he is. You can't know if he cares about you, if he actually stands behind this or that religion or holy book... you simply can't know anything about religion is true, and I finally understood that I simply can't believe in something I can't know is true.
From there it was pretty much a downhill race. I had some difficult moments (some harsh, like fighting with my dad about going to temple, and some downright comical, like being scared of dying the week after the first time I violated the sabbath) and I wasn't sure what I was going to end up as but in the end of the process it turned out that what I believed in was atheism. It was ok though, by then I was content with just being... myself.

I can say from experience the long path to leaving the plantation is pretty much the same for christians.
 
Umm, that's not true.
I can't speak for the rest of the world but a survey from Jan 2012 showed that 80% of Israeli Jews believe in god (see here. It's in Hebrew, but you can get the gist of it through google translate).
Also, 8% of Israeli Jews are haredi, 12% are religious, 13% are traditional-religious, 25% are traditional and 42% are secular (see here).
Before you even begin to ask how many secular Jews believe in god, you have 58% of the Jewish Israeli population who are adherents of the faith, to some degree.
42% is more than...anything else you got there. Sure if you lump the others in one group, you get 58%, but it's not easily like that, especially with people who call themselves "traditional".

Also, i'm referring to the US, where jews are either reform or atheist or agnostic. Again, congrats. So typical. National Secular Society - Number of secular Jews increases in America
 
Sure, good idea.
I grew up in an orthodox neighberhood in a (mostly) orthodox city and went to an orthodox school. It was quite some time before I met anyone who disagreed with my indoctrinated thoughts, longer until I understood that there were Jews who didn't follow the faith for philosophical reasons (I'd thought they were just too lazy to adhere to all the rules and restrictions of orthodox Judaism) and even longer than that before I started to doubt my indoctrinated ideas myself.
At first, when thoughts like "how do I know that the 'talmud' is the word of god?" started occuring to me I chastised myself for having them. At first I tried sharing my doubts with my parents, teachers or friends but quickly gave that up when, in the best case scenario, they let me talk to some rabbi (who was supposed to have all the answers to my questions, but I usually just ended up with more) and in the worst case started treating me like I was a leper.
What followed was a difficult period where I tried suppressing these heretical thoughts, and kept telling myself that I was being tested, and failing, but the thoughts and questions persisted. Inidentally, I get really annoyed at people who accuse me of leaving the faith because of laziness since it was, hands down, the most difficult and traumatic event of my life, but back to the story...
So, during this difficult period of guilt and conflict I came across a short story by Isaac Asimov called "The Last Question". In the story (skip to the next paragraph if this sort of thing bores you) mankind builds increasingly powerful computers, and in every several generations asks the computer if it is possible to increase the entropy of the universe (thus preventing the end of the universe by the "big crunch") and in every generation the computer gives the same answer: "insufficient data for meaningful answer". Thus pass the generations until, to prevent their extinction by the end of the universe, humanity decides to unite itself with the ultimate computer, the AC. Just before the last human unites with the AC, he, one last time, asks the AC if it is possible to increase the entropy of the universe and once again recieves the answer: "insufficient data for meaningful answer". The last human unites with the AC, the universe collapses, and for several millenia the AC ponders the question until it finally finds the answer to the question, but with no one to report it to, decides to reveal it by reversing entropy. The story ends with the words "and the AC said 'let there be light' and there was light".
So, there I am with my doubts and general feelings of crap, and I finish this story, and... it's like something suddenly just... clicked. It finally occured to me that you just can't know. You can't know if god exists. If he does exist, you can't know what, or who, he is. You can't know if he cares about you, if he actually stands behind this or that religion or holy book... you simply can't know anything about religion is true, and I finally understood that I simply can't believe in something I can't know is true.
From there it was pretty much a downhill race. I had some difficult moments (some harsh, like fighting with my dad about going to temple, and some downright comical, like being scared of dying the week after the first time I violated the sabbath) and I wasn't sure what I was going to end up as but in the end of the process it turned out that what I believed in was atheism. It was ok though, by then I was content with just being... myself.

but atheism assumes that you know that God doesn't exist. You may not believe in him, or have your doubts, but to say that you read one story and all of a sudden, you know enough about the universe to know that God doesn't exist at all, is a bit presumptuous.
 
42% is more than...anything else you got there. Sure if you lump the others in one group, you get 58%, but it's not easily like that, especially with people who call themselves "traditional".
Your initial point was that the majority of Jews don't believe in god. The fact remains that in Israel, 80% of Jews believe in god.
Also, i'm referring to the US, where jews are either reform or atheist or agnostic.
"The 2008 American Religious Identification Survey found that around 3.4 million American Jews call themselves religious — out of a general Jewish population of about 5.4 million." (see here)
That puts the number of religious Jews at about 63% of American Jewry. Since this isn't even counting the members of the other 37% who believe in god, I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of American Jewry also believe in god.
Your source did not contradict this and, in fact, also stated that 37% of American Jews identify themselves by ethnicity rather than religion.
Again, congrats. So typical.
I was just sharing my experience of losing faith with people so they could get to know me. I never claimed I was unique and am a bit perplexed as to why you're insinuating that I was and being so hostile.
 
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Hi all
I'm new to DP and have been posting primarily in the ME forum. I thought this thread would be a good idea to get to know some people from this forum and get them to know me.
Anyway, I'm not a real expert but as a former orthodox Jew (I'm an atheist now) I know quite a bit about Judaism and different Jewish sects so if you have any questions about Jewish habits, customs or anything of the sort, ask away.


I've been looking for a new quantum mechanic. I need someone to check my electrons... whenever I can find out exactly where they are, I can't see what speed they're moving at. Very frustrating, there must be a way to fix that...


:mrgreen:
 
I've been looking for a new quantum mechanic. I need someone to check my electrons... whenever I can find out exactly where they are, I can't see what speed they're moving at. Very frustrating, there must be a way to fix that...


:mrgreen:
Ah, you've come to the right man.
You take two boxes, stick a screaming cat in one, and your electrons in the other. After shooting the cat into space (no particular point to this, I just hate cats) you take the box with your electrons and throw it as hard as you can at a cat (any cat will do). Just before the box hits the cat, the speed of the electrons is the speed of the box and its location depends on how fast (or trusting) the cat is.
Easy.
 
I can say from experience the long path to leaving the plantation is pretty much the same for christians.
Ah, so you're a fellow abandoner of the faith?
If you don't mind, I'd like to hear your story too.
 
but atheism assumes that you know that God doesn't exist. You may not believe in him, or have your doubts, but to say that you read one story and all of a sudden, you know enough about the universe to know that God doesn't exist at all, is a bit presumptuous.

You could make the same argument for the Easter Bunny and Santa.
 
Ah, so you're a fellow abandoner of the faith?
If you don't mind, I'd like to hear your story too.

Devout Irish Catholic family, 9 years of Catholic school, communion, confirmation, altar boy, the whole 9 yards.

I started questioning my faith in my 20's. I started searching out alternative viewpoints and found them. I finally realized my church knew absolutely nothing, they were just making it up as they went along.

Did you ever play Jenga? That was what it was like for me. One by one a piece would be removed until the whole damned thing came crashing down.

The priestly pedophile scandal was the camel's straw. God's representatives on earth were more concerned about protecting their power, authority and money then protecting the souls entrusted to them. They were just like everyone else.

It was very painful but in the end a very liberating experience.
 
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