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Proofs of Jesus outside of the Bible.

Chelsea

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I know there are some historical references aside from the New testament, that mention Jesus as a man/the Messiah. I'm not sure how accurate they are but one that is appealing to me is that of Josephus. Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus|Josephus a Jewish priest,wrote Antiquities | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Thats one link to Josephus, I know there are a few more ambiguous references also. Discuss...

Why does any of this matter to you? Discuss.
 
Why does any of this matter to you? Discuss.

Because in a thread about the First Amendment, I suggested there was no scientific, historical or archeological proof that either Muhammed or Jesus Christ ever existed.

And because it's interesting to Chelsea and I, so if you find the topic offensive or boring, please feel free not to post here, k?
 
There is no proof of Jesus outside religious writings which began 70 years after they claim he died.

Oddly enough, Horus was an Egyptian god who was around for about 600 years prior to anything about Christ and his life is the same as they claim the life of Christ.

Parallels between the lives of Jesus and Horus, an Egyptian God

It would appear as though Paul wanted to get the pagans gone so he could be the favorite with the government.
 
This is the scientific/archaeological/historical case against the actual existence of a human being answering the religious description of Jesus Christ:

1. At the time and place where he is said to have lived, there were not sufficient records to establish the identity of individual humans. Proving that Jews lived in what is now known as Israel in the time period JC is said to have lived is not scientific, historical or archaeological proof that one such Jew was JC, a man who died at the age of 33.

2. At the time JC is said to have lived, virtually every platitude he spoke was a previously-articulated idea of another religion. This is extremely detrimental to any scientific, archaeological or historical claim of his actual existence that is based on such things as allegedly contemporaneous writings of a religious or philosophical nature.

For the sake of comparison, when Buddha is said to have lived, there (apparently) was no previously-existing religious or philosophical theory of reincarnation or nirvana. The fact that such ideas emerged in human history at or about the time Buddha is claimed to have actually lived certainly does not prove that an individual answering his description actually did so, but it doesn't disprove it, either.

In the case of JC, a detached analysis of the known facts based only on cold rationality would led to the conclusion that a collection of myths, platitudes and ideas already in existence were cobbled together, and that the JC myth was created to further their promotion.

3. JC had no descendents, according to the myth, and held no position of power. We know that Ramses I existed because we know that he fathered Ramses II and that he was the pharaoh of Egypt during a certain time in the distant past. This is typical of archaeology: we are able to tell that, say, 10,000 humans lived at a building site that erected the pharaoh's pyramid/tomb, but apart from the pharaoh himself, we can't identify any of those 10,000 men, women and children by name. As time marches forward, we see various means of identification of others in positions of power around a ruler, but until about the 15th century at the earliest, we cannot identify individual humans of the lower class in virtually any society.
 
I know there are some historical references aside from the New testament, that mention Jesus as a man/the Messiah. I'm not sure how accurate they are but one that is appealing to me is that of Josephus. Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus|Josephus a Jewish priest,wrote Antiquities | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Thats one link to Josephus, I know there are a few more ambiguous references also. Discuss...

Josephus mentions of Jesus are widely regarded as later christain forgeries. They stick out like a sore thumb and if removed the text regains its natural flow. Josephus was a Pharisee and very very unlikely to say that this person Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.

No Historian mention the person called Jesus Christ, even historians living in Jerusalem at the time.

This can only logically infer that either:

a) Jesus Christ didn't exist OR
b) He did exist but he wasn't worth writing about, he passed under the radar so to speak.

You have to remember that this was a very turbulent time for the Jewish religion with many sects and splinter groups with many faith healers roaming about, some even calling themselves the Messiah. Certainly possible that a Jesus from Nazereth was one of those (although in the bible Jesus never states he is the Messiah).
 
Because in a thread about the First Amendment, I suggested there was no scientific, historical or archeological proof that either Muhammed or Jesus Christ ever existed.

And because it's interesting to Chelsea and I, so if you find the topic offensive or boring, please feel free not to post here, k?

pinkie, yes there is no historical proof that muhammed existed.but qoran consists of very personal verses in relation to him and it means yes he lived..
 
I know there are some historical references aside from the New testament, that mention Jesus as a man/the Messiah. I'm not sure how accurate they are but one that is appealing to me is that of Josephus. Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus|Josephus a Jewish priest,wrote Antiquities | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Thats one link to Josephus, I know there are a few more ambiguous references also. Discuss...

He is not a contemporary. It does not help.
 
There is no proof of Jesus outside religious writings which began 70 years after they claim he died.

Oddly enough, Horus was an Egyptian god who was around for about 600 years prior to anything about Christ and his life is the same as they claim the life of Christ.

Parallels between the lives of Jesus and Horus, an Egyptian God

It would appear as though Paul wanted to get the pagans gone so he could be the favorite with the government.

35-50 years after his supposed death. You may be confusing his death as happening at year 0.
 
There is no proof of Jesus outside religious writings which began 70 years after they claim he died.

Oddly enough, Horus was an Egyptian god who was around for about 600 years prior to anything about Christ and his life is the same as they claim the life of Christ.

Parallels between the lives of Jesus and Horus, an Egyptian God

It would appear as though Paul wanted to get the pagans gone so he could be the favorite with the government.

we all know that..butstill believe in god.
 
Because in a thread about the First Amendment, I suggested there was no scientific, historical or archeological proof that either Muhammed or Jesus Christ ever existed.

And because it's interesting to Chelsea and I, so if you find the topic offensive or boring, please feel free not to post here, k?


Muhammed has historical evidence for his existence. There are multiple Byzantine sources mentioning a man named Muhammed leading Arabs to war, starting as early as 2 years after his supposed death. Sebeos the bishop outlined Muhammeds status as a religious figure and accurately recorded Muslim creed, such as the prohibition against alcohol.

Jesus has considerably less, especially since Josephus was writing about events before he was born. However, that can't be construed as proof that Jesus didn't exist either, given how few records from that time period existed.
 
The problem with this kind of discussion is that people will mischaracterize evidence the Yeshua was a real person with evidence that he is the Son of God.

Just because Yeshua (Joshua) might have existed doesn't mean he was God, just that he had a pulse.
 
Muhammed has historical evidence for his existence. There are multiple Byzantine sources mentioning a man named Muhammed leading Arabs to war, starting as early as 2 years after his supposed death. Sebeos the bishop outlined Muhammeds status as a religious figure and accurately recorded Muslim creed, such as the prohibition against alcohol.

Jesus has considerably less, especially since Josephus was writing about events before he was born. However, that can't be construed as proof that Jesus didn't exist either, given how few records from that time period existed.

those evidences are not reliable.
 
He is not a contemporary. It does not help.

Early christian writings would not be of no value to a scientist, historian or archaeologist trying to determine whether JC ever actually existed.

They just wouldn't be dispositive.
 
we all know that..butstill believe in god.

As does most of Planet Earth. Not a thing wrong with that, either -- but this is a faith-based belief, not one grounded in science, history and/or archaeology.
 
The problem with this kind of discussion is that people will mischaracterize evidence the Yeshua was a real person with evidence that he is the Son of God.

Just because Yeshua (Joshua) might have existed doesn't mean he was God, just that he had a pulse.

Who is Yeshua? Jesus Christ?

As for whether he was the Son of God, that falls entirely outside any scientific inquiry and squarely in the laps of religious leaders and philosophers.
 
Early christian writings would not be of no value to a scientist, historian or archaeologist trying to determine whether JC ever actually existed.

They just wouldn't be dispositive.

My point was that Josephus was not from the period of Christ. He does not give any source and so it is possible he is only referring to the stories of the early Christian church.

The early Christian church should be of SOME value to any objective person. Certainly, not conclusive or even of great value but "of no value" that is a bit strong, and requires that one assume too much. If they were of no value we would not be discussing this.
 
I have ti apologize for the quotes they wont undo on my smartphone for whatever reason. Yeshua is Hebrew for Joshua although Jesus was called by Yeshua (something lost in translation??) Messianic Jews say Yeshua HaMoshiach or Jesus The Messiah.

Q
UOTE=Pinkie;1061048116]Because in a thread about the First Amendment, I suggested there was no scientific, historical or archeological proof that either Muhammed or Jesus Christ ever existed.

And because it's interesting to Chelsea and I, so if you find the topic offensive or boring, please feel free not to post here, k?
[/QUOTE]

This is the scientific/archaeological/historical case against the actual existence of a human being answering the religious description of Jesus Christ:

1. At the time and place where he is said to have lived, there were not sufficient records to establish the identity of individual humans. Proving that Jews lived in what is now known as Israel in the time period JC is said to have lived is not scientific, historical or archaeological proof that one such Jew was JC, a man who died at the age of 33.

2. At the time JC is said to have lived, virtually every platitude he spoke was a previously-articulated idea of another religion. This is extremely detrimental to any scientific, archaeological or historical claim of his actual existence that is based on such things as allegedly contemporaneous writings of a religious or philosophical nature.

For the sake of comparison, when Buddha is said to have lived, there (apparently) was no previously-existing religious or philosophical theory of reincarnation or nirvana. The fact that such ideas emerged in human history at or about the time Buddha is claimed to have actually lived certainly does not prove that an individual answering his description actually did so, but it doesn't disprove it, either.

In the case of JC, a detached analysis of the known facts based only on cold rationality would led to the conclusion that a collection of myths, platitudes and ideas already in existence were cobbled together, and that the JC myth was created to further their promotion.

3. JC had no descendents, according to the myth, and held no position of power. We know that Ramses I existed because we know that he fathered Ramses II and that he was the pharaoh of Egypt during a certain time in the distant past. This is typical of archaeology: we are able to tell that, say, 10,000 humans lived at a building site that erected the pharaoh's pyramid/tomb, but apart from the pharaoh himself, we can't identify any of those 10,000 men, women and children by name. As time marches forward, we see various means of identification of others in positions of power around a ruler, but until about the 15th century at the earliest, we cannot identify individual humans of the lower class in virtually any society.
 
I have ti apologize for the quotes they wont undo on my smartphone for whatever reason. Yeshua is Hebrew for Joshua although Jesus was called by Yeshua (something lost in translation??) Messianic Jews say Yeshua HaMoshiach or Jesus The Messiah.

Whoa. Who is Joshua?

And who are these "Messianic Jews"? Wouldn't "Jews for Jesus" be called christians?
 
My point was that Josephus was not from the period of Christ. He does not give any source and so it is possible he is only referring to the stories of the early Christian church.

The early Christian church should be of SOME value to any objective person. Certainly, not conclusive or even of great value but "of no value" that is a bit strong, and requires that one assume too much. If they were of no value we would not be discussing this.

The Josephus "quote" is widely held to be a later fabrication.
 
The Josephus "quote" is widely held to be a later fabrication.

Regardless, there are ancient writings that assert they are relating the story of Jesus' life. They wouldn't serve as scientific or archaeological proof either, because they are inconsistent and incorporate ideas clearly borrowed from previously-existing folklore.
 
Whoa. Who is Joshua?

And who are these "Messianic Jews"? Wouldn't "Jews for Jesus" be called christians?
Joshua would be the proper name.for.Jesus if translated directly from the Hebrew. I haven't gone over the eugenics to see where that one got messed up. And Jews for Jesus actually more often go by Messianic Jews (or Jews that believe in the Messiah) because they maintain their Jewish identity although they are technically Christian. Much like the early church and Jesus himself were still referred to as Jews. They were called Christians (followers.of the Messiah in Greek) I think at Antioch... after Jesus had died etc and the disciples started proselytizing. So maintaining their Jewish identity isn't a new concept.
 
Last edited:
Your link was short on info.
Try the complete wiki page and you will find the following.

Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Which includes the following:
Josephus on Jesus - Arguments challenging authenticity

Josephus on Jesus - Arguments in favor of authenticity

It appears to be the same information just formatted differently. Anyway, both indicate that the consensus is that one of the references is authentic and another is partially authenic.
 
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