Catholic Church: "Pay us, or go to hell."

Oh, no doubt.

Napoleon said:

Those figures are unsourced and unsupported by the facts especially as it relates to European countries. I'm also not interested in bizarre conspiracy theories that the Catholic Church controls all financial markets and currency. It also has nothing to do with this discussion.

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I figured you wouldn't like that link as it wholly proved your post false but there are other links available and I just linked a court ruling that people do not have to pay the church tax to be members of the Catholic church. If Germany owned the property do you seriously think it would say people don't have to pay the tax?

The State collects the taxes as a business transaction because the church pays Germany a fee for collecting the taxes.

nota bene said:

Oh, no doubt.

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There have been myriad interpretations and they have been rather interesting as they reveal certain aspects of guilty minds.

The main reason Jesus opened a can of whoop ass in the Temple is the exact same action being taken by the church. It is so IRONIC the church claims to be the oldest and dearest yet repeatedly does the opposite of what Jesus taught.

Furiounova said:

I figured you wouldn't like that link as it wholly proved your post false....

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:lol: I'd hardly think that a random blogger's "private research" that is both unsourced and unsupported by facts proves my post false. Just because a rabidly anti-Catholic blogger makes a claim does not make it true.

Furiounova said:

I just linked a court ruling that people do not have to pay the church tax to be members of the Catholic church.

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The State has no authority or jurisdiction to decide who can or cannot receive the sacraments. Furthermore, the tax is a red herring. This is about public apostasy not taxes.

ChuckBerry said:

So...the Vatican and the Jesuits are to blame for the 2008 financial meltdown.

K.

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No. The only purpose of the citation was to show Germany does not own the catholic churches. It doesn't matter if the guys numbers are wrong or what his agenda is because neither changes the fact Germany does not own the churches as another poster claimed.

Napoleon said:

:lol: I'd hardly think that a random blogger's "private research" that is both unsourced and unsupported by facts proves my post false. Just because a rabidly anti-Catholic blogger makes a claim does not make it true.



The State has no authority or jurisdiction to decide who can or cannot receive the sacraments. Furthermore, the tax is a red herring. This is about public apostasy not taxes.

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Then forget the blogger. Do you want me to remove the link or can you ignore it as is?

You claimed Germany owns the catholic church property and that the government is responsible for maintenance. The link on the court case proves both of those claims completely false. It is pretty sad you completely ignored that.

Regarding your sacrament straw man, I never said Germany has jurisdiction over who receives the sacrament. It is usually best to respond to the claims posted versus inventing claims.

Furiounova said:

You claimed Germany owns the catholic church property and that the government is responsible for maintenance. The link on the court case proves both of those claims completely false. It is pretty sad you completely ignored that.

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The court case is irrelevant in this discussion as it makes no mention of property ownership. The fact that Germany retains property rights on Catholic and Protestant cathedrals etc is irrefutable. It was seized in 1803 under the Principal Conclusion of the Extraordinary Imperial Delegation and those property rights were never transferred back their respective sects. I notice that you continue to ignore the fact that this has nothing to do with taxation and everything to do with public apostasy.

Napoleon said:

The court case is irrelevant in this discussion as it makes no mention of property ownership. The fact that Germany retains property rights on Catholic and Protestant cathedrals etc is irrefutable. It was seized in 1803 under the Principal Conclusion of the Extraordinary Imperial Delegation and those property rights were never transferred back their respective sects. I notice that you continue to ignore the fact that this has nothing to do with taxation and everything to do with public apostasy.

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Lol...the hubris is priceless. You want us to believe a German court ruled Catholics do not have to pay the church tax but it is owned by Germany? Are you bloody serious?

Since it is obvious you will continue to ignore any evidence I present then it makes the most sense for you to prove Germany owns the catholic churches. So just give us a link proving that and that Germany is responsible for the maintenance as you claimed. Please don't insult our intelligence by changing your claim and focusing on "property rights."

In addition, show us which European countries own the churches. Look forward to those links.

Furiounova said:

Since it is obvious you will continue to ignore any evidence I present then it makes the most sense for you to prove Germany owns the catholic churches. So just give us a link proving that and that Germany is responsible for the maintenance as you claimed. Please don't insult our intelligence by changing your claim and focusing on "property rights.".

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First of all, I never changed my claim. My first post in this thread noted that these are the property of the State which is why the State is responsible for maintenance. I noted the specific Resolution which confiscated the property of the Catholic and Protestant Churches in Germany and transfered it to the State in my last post.

Furiounova said:

In addition, show us which European countries own the churches. Look forward to those links.

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Take France for example. Church properties were seized during the Revoultion and remain national property today with the State responsible for their maintenance. That link mentions the Cathedral Notre Dame de Rheims but the most famous example, perhaps in all of Europe, is the Cathedral Notre Dame de Paris.

Napoleon said:

First of all, I never changed my claim. My first post in this thread noted that these are the property of the State which is why the State is responsible for maintenance. I noted the specific Resolution which confiscated the property of the Catholic and Protestant Churches in Germany and transfered it to the State in my last post.



Take France for example. Church properties were seized during the Revoultion and remain national property today with the State responsible for their maintenance. That link mentions the Cathedral Notre Dame de Rheims but the most famous example, perhaps in all of Europe, is the Cathedral Notre Dame de Paris.

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Since Germany was not unified until 1871, how did Germany confiscate land in 1803? The Holy Roman Empire dissolved in 1806 and it did not specifically confiscate all churches as it was a limited authority.

You haven't provided a shred of evidence Germany owns the churches or is responsible for the maintenance.

Since once again you don't support your claim, explain this to us:

If Germany owns the properties and is responsible for the maintenance, why is it every German citizen can opt out of paying the church tax?

Furiounova said:

Since Germany was not unified until 1871, how did Germany confiscate land in 1803? The Holy Roman Empire dissolved in 1806 and it did not specifically confiscate all churches as it was a limited authority.

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Do I need to do all of the homework for you? That was the document within which the property was seized and it has remained the foundation for the justification of the State's so-called church tax because the property was seized and never returned.

Furiounova said:

If Germany owns the properties and is responsible for the maintenance, why is it every German citizen can opt out of paying the church tax?

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Because it would be a violation of their freedom of religion if they were forced to further a religion which is not held by them through the funding of such structures and institutions. Why are you hijacking the the thread with this topic? Its already been established that people aren't being excommunicated for not paying their taxes therefore the subject is closed.

RabidAlpaca said:

As an agnostic...[/url]

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I don't mean to derail the discussion, but I'd like to comment that the agnostic position is always "I don't know", which, in this case, means that the Pope may be right and any critics of what he does may be wrong. Just saying.

Goshin said:

"Church tax"?
You mean tithing, or is this a TAX?
If it is voluntary, it isn't a tax. Tithing is a whole 'nuther thing.

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I know this has already been answered, but I've always respected you so I want to take the time myself.
This is a tax, although it could also be considered to fullfill the tithe requirement. However, I find this particularly disturbing in that the government is being used as the church's muscle to collect and enforce taxes. Those who do not pay are reported to the church, at which point they are no longer welcome.

I used to be a christian in Texas, and as you know nowhere in America is tithe taken as a tax. It's 100% voluntary. A person could sit in church his entire life and not pay a dime if he wants, but most do. Even without coercion the churches seem to do just fine. My parent's church just built a new multi-million dollar facility and the pastor and his three kids live in upper middle class.

Nothing says "faith" like forced tithe.

Paralogic said:

I don't mean to derail the discussion, but I'd like to comment that the agnostic position is always "I don't know", which, in this case, means that the Pope may be right and any critics of what he does may be wrong. Just saying.

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Of course, there is a slim possibility that he may be right. There's also an equal amount of possibility that the flying spaghetti monster is the one true god. Instead of making up details, and turning religion into a business, I prefer to take the scientist's approach of not believing something until evidence is presented.

Napoleon said:

That is a very unfair and untrue statement and the tax needs to be placed in context. In Germany, as in many other European countries, Catholic and Protestant cathedrals, monasteries, etc. are the property of the State. The State is responsible for maintaining these facilities and so it applies an additional income tax of 8% for those citizens who are registered Catholics and Protestants. What the Bishops did was to, rightfully, point out that in order to avoid paying the tax these persons had to declare to the State that they were no longer Catholics. In other words, they renounced their faith and effectively rendered themselves ineligible to receive the sacraments. It is ispo facto excommunication and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they are actually paying their taxes. There is also nothing new about this. Ispo facto excommunication for public apostasy has been canon law for many centuries.

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And yet in America there is no church tax, and I doubt that Americans are any less christian europeans. The fundamental problem here has historically always been catholic greed. It's always been about money and power, not religion. If a poor person walks into a church in America needing some spiritual help, no one is going to charge him a door fee. I used to be a christian and I can definitely affirm that is the more christian thing to do.

Furiounova said:

If I was in Germany I would put together a skit based on the event of Jesus going postal in the Temple and have it video recorded. Since the Catholic church obviously has trouble reading the bible it may be a way to teach them what Jesus taught.

This is just another example of why the Catholic church is the world's largest anti-Christ organization. It is so ass backwards from Jesus that it looks like a group of people sat down and asked:

"How the hell can we take the most basic teachings of Jesus, turn them completely around, then sell the product to the public as a Christian organization?"

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Yeah, I however don't have the desire or time to take on religious fanatics. They're going to believe whatever they're told to believe and I have no right to change it. If they want to waste their money that's their problem.

Napoleon said:

Do I need to do all of the homework for you? That was the document within which the property was seized and it has remained the foundation for the justification of the State's so-called church tax because the property was seized and never returned.



Because it would be a violation of their freedom of religion if they were forced to further a religion which is not held by them through the funding of such structures and institutions. Why are you hijacking the the thread with this topic? Its already been established that people aren't being excommunicated for not paying their taxes therefore the subject is closed.

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You have provided not a shred of evidence Germany owns the property or that it is responsible for maintenance and I have linked the evidence the tax is not State mandated and that Germany does not own the church property.

At this point, you can either provide the evidence backing up your claim, admit you were wrong, or leave the thread.

Is this financial fall out from the global sex abuse problems? Meaning, I know in the US the church has had to sell a lot of its property to help cover legal and settlement expenses and there is no doubt droves of people are leaving the church for it's criminal role in protecting pedophiles.

This is what Catholics should do: if the church is going to insist on forced payment then members should:

Force transparent accounting

Force all commercial holdings to be public (including porn sales)

Force leadership to be held to the laws of their respective countries

Produce an annual financial status

Frankly, if Catholics are not willing to hold church leadership accountable, it is their fault.

RabidAlpaca said:

I know this has already been answered, but I've always respected you so I want to take the time myself.
This is a tax, although it could also be considered to fullfill the tithe requirement. However, I find this particularly disturbing in that the government is being used as the church's muscle to collect and enforce taxes. Those who do not pay are reported to the church, at which point they are no longer welcome.

I used to be a christian in Texas, and as you know nowhere in America is tithe taken as a tax. It's 100% voluntary. A person could sit in church his entire life and not pay a dime if he wants, but most do. Even without coercion the churches seem to do just fine. My parent's church just built a new multi-million dollar facility and the pastor and his three kids live in upper middle class.

Nothing says "faith" like forced tithe.


......

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I confess I've rarely taken much interest in poking my nose into the details of church issues in Europe... which is probably why this sounds so bizarre to me. I had no notion that church buildings in Germany were State property and State maintained... appalling, to me. Also appalling is the notion of taxing someone because they profess a given religion, even if it is to support same. From my background tithe and offerings are supposed to be voluntary, and their spiritual value is based in large part on being freely and willingly given.

Now if it is indeed correct (and I have no idea if it is so, but I'll take it as granted for the sake of argument) that one has to renounce one's religion to avoid the tax, then it makes a certain amount of sense that the Catholic Church would bar those who have renounced it for tax purposes from recieving the Sacraments... but the whole mess just reeks of a level of coercion that appalls my very American and freedom-loving soul. :wassat1:

Goshin said:

I confess I've rarely taken much interest in poking my nose into the details of church issues in Europe... which is probably why this sounds so bizarre to me. I had no notion that church buildings in Germany were State property and State maintained... appalling, to me. Also appalling is the notion of taxing someone because they profess a given religion, even if it is to support same. From my background tithe and offerings are supposed to be voluntary, and their spiritual value is based in large part on being freely and willingly given.

Now if it is indeed correct (and I have no idea if it is so, but I'll take it as granted for the sake of argument) that one has to renounce one's religion to avoid the tax, then it makes a certain amount of sense that the Catholic Church would bar those who have renounced it for tax purposes from recieving the Sacraments... but the whole mess just reeks of a level of coercion that appalls my very American and freedom-loving soul. :wassat1:

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The churches in Germany are NOT state owned or state maintained.

if this were to occur in the US, I would certainly have a problem with it.... but it's in Germany, so I don't care.

Thrilla said:

if this were to occur in the US, I would certainly have a problem with it.... but it's in Germany, so I don't care.

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It could happen in the US because it is a Church issue and not a German issue. The US does not get paid to collect church taxes like Germany does but the church could mandate members tithe a percentage of their income or get booted 90% out the door like in Germany.

Furiounova said:

It could happen in the US because it is a Church issue and not a German issue. The US does not get paid to collect church taxes like Germany does but the church could mandate members tithe a percentage of their income or get booted 90% out the door like in Germany.

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Possible but improbable, and still a very different thing from using the strong arm of the State to enforce a "tithe" as a TAX.

Goshin said:

Possible but improbable, and still a very different thing from using the strong arm of the State to enforce a "tithe" as a TAX.

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Germany is NOT enforcing the tax. Goodness. I already posted a link from a German high court ruling Catholics did NOT have to pay the church tax if they do not want to and can still be members of the church.

It is not mandatory in Germany just like tithing is not mandatory in the US.

Furiounova said:

The churches in Germany are NOT state owned or state maintained.

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I've been doing a little digging on this, and what I've been able to dig up suggests that certain religious sites of a historic nature may be State owned but most churches are NOT.

It appears, though, that religions that organize as a specific type of public corporation can recieve subsidy/support from the government, including this church-tax thing.

Here's a bit from Wikipedia that is interesting...

The church tax is only paid by members of the respective religious corporate body under public law . Those who are not members of a tax collecting denomination are not required to pay it. Members of a religious community which is a corporate body under public law may formally declare to state authorities that they wish to leave the community (this is commonly referred to as "leaving the church"). With such declaration, the obligation to pay church taxes ends. The concerned religious organisations usually refuse to administer rites of passage, such as marriages and burials of (former) members who had seceded. To rejoin a religious corporate body under public law one would get one's declaration of re-entry officially recorded. The Conference of the German Bishops, however, considers the declaration to "leave the church" to be a schismatic act to be punished automatically by excommunication.

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Goshin said:

I've been doing a little digging on this, and what I've been able to dig up suggests that certain religious sites of a historic nature may be State owned but most churches are NOT.

It appears, though, that religions that organize as a specific type of public corporation can recieve subsidy/support from the government, including this church-tax thing.
Here's a bit from Wikipedia that is interesting...

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That's pretty much what I have been saying. The German court ruling from 2009 ruled against the church and declared members do not have to pay the church tax. Prior to the ruling people who did not pay could be legally excluded from all catholic church memberships. Now it is illegal for the German Catholic church to issue blanket excommunication for anyone who does not pay.

German taxes are around 45% so when you factor in the church tax it pushes it way over the 50% mark. That is a lot of tax!

Furiounova said:

It could happen in the US because it is a Church issue and not a German issue. The US does not get paid to collect church taxes like Germany does but the church could mandate members tithe a percentage of their income or get booted 90% out the door like in Germany.

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I find it highly doubtful, to say the least, that it could happen in the US. ( the state collecting church taxes)

of course it's possible that churches can boot members who don't tithe...hell, they can boot em for dressin' funny if they want to.

Thrilla said:

I find it highly doubtful, to say the least, that it could happen in the US. ( the state collecting church taxes)

of course it's possible that churches can boot members who don't tithe...hell, they can boot em for dressin' funny if they want to.

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I didn't say the US would collect taxes. I said since this is a church issue it could happen in the US that the church excommunicates members if they don't pay enough.