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Is the Christian God is contradictory?

Jredbaron96

Jredbaron96

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Probably one of the most importan aspects of Christianity is the concept of the all forgiving, all loving, all merciful God. A God that, regardless of the crime, will be willing to forgive and still love you. Seems legit.

But then you have Hell. A pit of eternal damnation, that spews forth the most horrible tortures imaginable.
So, this begs the question: How could an all loving, all merciful, and all forgiving God, knowingly allow his Children, which he is said to love very much, into the fiery pits of hell?

That just sems that hypocrtical.

An all forgiving God would not care what you've done, no matter how horrible. That's what all forgiving means.

An all loving God would love his children, regardless of the crimes committed by the individual.

An all merciful God would never allow his children to suffer such torment that is derived from the fires of Hell.

If God allows one of these things, he is not either all-merciful, all-forgiving, or all-loving.


I eagerly await your responce, and hope we can have an intelligent, and productive debate.

Kind regards,
Jredbaron96
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Probably one of the most importan aspects of Christianity is the concept of the all forgiving, all loving, all merciful God. A God that, regardless of the crime, will be willing to forgive and still love you. Seems legit.

But then you have Hell. A pit of eternal damnation, that spews forth the most horrible tortures imaginable.
So, this begs the question: How could an all loving, all merciful, and all forgiving God, knowingly allow his Children, which he is said to love very much, into the fiery pits of hell?

That just sems that hypocrtical.

An all forgiving God would not care what you've done, no matter how horrible. That's what all forgiving means.

An all loving God would love his children, regardless of the crimes committed by the individual.

An all merciful God would never allow his children to suffer such torment that is derived from the fires of Hell.

If God allows one of these things, he is not either all-merciful, all-forgiving, or all-loving.


I eagerly await your responce, and hope we can have an intelligent, and productive debate.

Kind regards,
Jredbaron96
Click to expand...

Well generally the people who go to hell are either the people who haven't accepted God or those who have embraced the Devil, but I haven't been there so I'm not sure.

I was brought up as a Congregationalist and they basically believe as long as you accept God in your heart you can go to heaven. However, God can't force you to accept him so thus people reject him and may accept the Devil, but this doesn't mean that God doesn't love you he still does. But once you accept the Devil, the Devil takes control and God can only save you if you let him because God will always love you. Thus going to Hell means that you have rejected God and his love, God is still all of those things you listed because he is merciful, loving, and forgiving, but the individual must accept God. And because their is free will God can't do everything for you.
 
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I have decided the only way the Christian God makes sense is if you believe the Bible was influenced by Satan.
 
CriticalThought said:
I have decided the only way the Christian God makes sense is if you believe the Bible was influenced by Satan.
Click to expand...

Or maybe god is actually just a petty warmonger who can't see past his own ego. The depictions of Satan as a one-dimensional being dedicated only to sadistically hurting others, mainly to taunt god, seem like the account of an childish egomaniac who has to dehumanize those who disagree with him. We have only god's word that he's the good guy in this story. Maybe he isn't. Maybe the bible is written by an unreliable narrator. Maybe it's a propaganda piece to keep people from recognizing the heroic rebellion of Lucifer against a tyrannical dictator.

The one story that always pops out at me is during the exodus from Egypt. We all know about Moses going to pharaoh and saying "let my people go!" Pharaoh says no and Moses and god send down the ten plagues. What a lot of people don't hear about is how Pharaoh said yes several times. After the first set of plagues and each time onward, Pharaoh agrees to let the Hebrews leave Egypt. But then god "hardens pharaoh's heart" and makes him change his mind. God overrides pharaoh's free will, controls his mind, and makes him escalate a conflict with Moses, specifically so god can inflict more suffering on the Egyptian people. Pharaoh doesn't bear the brunt of these plagues. Innocent people who had absolutely no control over whether or new the Hebrews were enslaved suffered. And god, after letting his people suffer as slaves for 400 years before doing anything about it (he's also the one who sent them to Egypt in the first place), orchestrated the entire conflict, requiring both sides to refuse to compromise, just so he could rain down destruction, pain, and death on the otherwise innocent Egyptian people.

That's the most evil thing I've ever heard of.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Probably one of the most importan aspects of Christianity is the concept of the all forgiving, all loving, all merciful God. A God that, regardless of the crime, will be willing to forgive and still love you. Seems legit.

But then you have Hell. A pit of eternal damnation, that spews forth the most horrible tortures imaginable.
So, this begs the question: How could an all loving, all merciful, and all forgiving God, knowingly allow his Children, which he is said to love very much, into the fiery pits of hell?

That just sems that hypocrtical.

An all forgiving God would not care what you've done, no matter how horrible. That's what all forgiving means.

An all loving God would love his children, regardless of the crimes committed by the individual.

An all merciful God would never allow his children to suffer such torment that is derived from the fires of Hell.

If God allows one of these things, he is not either all-merciful, all-forgiving, or all-loving.


I eagerly await your responce, and hope we can have an intelligent, and productive debate.

Kind regards,
Jredbaron96
Click to expand...

There is a big difference between "God" and "The Christian Concepts of God".There are those out there that for some reason,that on a fundemental level,that they and those who believe just like them own "God" and that "God" is somehow bound by those beliefs.

There is a big difference beween "rejecting God" and "rejecting someone else'sconcepts of God as being the only one valid".
I have encounter quite a number of people in my 50 years on this existance that seem to believe that "going to hell for rejecting God" actually means "you are going to hell because you refuse to believe the way I tell you to believe".

Taoism has it's own concepts of Heaven (and to a lesser extent,Hell) that is not dependant to what the Christians believe.
Rejecting Abrahamic Monotheism as one's own Way to have a personal relationship with "God" is not the same thing as "rejecting God".
 
Verthaine said:
There is a big difference between "God" and "The Christian Concepts of God".There are those out there that for some reason,that on a fundemental level,that they and those who believe just like them own "God" and that "God" is somehow bound by those beliefs.

There is a big difference beween "rejecting God" and "rejecting someone else'sconcepts of God as being the only one valid".
I have encounter quite a number of people in my 50 years on this existance that seem to believe that "going to hell for rejecting God" actually means "you are going to hell because you refuse to believe the way I tell you to believe".

Taoism has it's own concepts of Heaven (and to a lesser extent,Hell) that is not dependant to what the Christians believe.
Rejecting Abrahamic Monotheism as one's own Way to have a personal relationship with "God" is not the same thing as "rejecting God".
Click to expand...

Interesting. So God is independant of any certain religious beliefs?
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Interesting. So God is independant of any certain religious beliefs?
Click to expand...

Of course.
It is rather arrogant of humans to demand that "God" adhere to any religious beliefs created by humans.
I for one am not going to tell "God" what "God" can and cannot do
Religious beliefs are memetic constucts created by humans to try to understand something(God) that transends the human ability to fully understand.

In Abrahamic Monotheism ,"That Which Is Supreme" ("God") is refered to in the masculine (i.e: "He","Lord","Father").
To many Christians.it is considered "bad/wrong" to refer to the Supreme in the feminine(i.e. "She"Goddess"Mother").

In Taoism,"That Which Is Supreme" ("The Tao")contians both the masculine (Yang) and the feminine (Yin) but is transcendant of all human notions of gender.
It is not forbidden or looked down upon by Taoist to refer to the Tao in gender specific terms as long as one the one doing so does not demand that everyone else does.

In Abrahamic Monotheism,human suffering is because (in a nutshell,I know I'm simplifying a bit) Adam disobeyed God.
In Taoism,human suffering is because that's just the Way it Is (in other words "crap happens"), and we just have to figure out how to deal with it,and overcome it.

In Abrahamic Monotheism,God is considered to be the "Supreme Being",and is considered All Forgiving, All Loving, and All Merciful,which makes plenty of humans wonder how such a Being can allow so much suffering.
In Taioism ,The Tao is considered "All Pervasive",and that everything is a part of the Tao,but the Tao itself transends All Things.All Is One.

Suffering is as much a part of the Way as Joy.
All suffering is experianced by the Tao itself.
Humans have the capacity to endure,and even overcome,suffering and evil.

Of course,how we Taoists view the Tao is basically how we individual Taoists we view The Tao,(we are not required to automatically take the words of Lao Tzu,Chung Tzu,Leih Tzu or any other Taoist sage as some form of "Gospel", but are encouraged to discover the Tao for ourselves) but the Tao istself makes no demands as to how to on anyone.
Believe in the Tao if one wishes,or do not believe in the Tao if one wishes,the Tao contians both.
No "burning in hell" just because one doesn't believe in the Tao the way certian humans may want one to.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Interesting. So God is independant of any certain religious beliefs?
Click to expand...

well, that is certainly what Christians believe, anyway :mrgreen:

as for hell, as C.S. Lewis points out, it's gates are locked from the inside. People will choose Hell over Heaven.
 
Verthaine said:
Of course.
It is rather arrogant of humans to demand that "God" adhere to any religious beliefs created by humans.
I for one am not going to tell "God" what "God" can and cannot do
Religious beliefs are memetic constucts created by humans to try to understand something(God) that transends the human ability to fully understand.

In Abrahamic Monotheism ,"That Which Is Supreme" ("God") is refered to in the masculine (i.e: "He","Lord","Father").
To many Christians.it is considered "bad/wrong" to refer to the Supreme in the feminine(i.e. "She"Goddess"Mother").

In Taoism,"That Which Is Supreme" ("The Tao")contians both the masculine (Yang) and the feminine (Yin) but is transcendant of all human notions of gender.
It is not forbidden or looked down upon by Taoist to refer to the Tao in gender specific terms as long as one the one doing so does not demand that everyone else does.

In Abrahamic Monotheism,human suffering is because (in a nutshell,I know I'm simplifying a bit) Adam disobeyed God.
In Taoism,human suffering is because that's just the Way it Is (in other words "crap happens"), and we just have to figure out how to deal with it,and overcome it.

In Abrahamic Monotheism,God is considered to be the "Supreme Being",and is considered All Forgiving, All Loving, and All Merciful,which makes plenty of humans wonder how such a Being can allow so much suffering.
In Taioism ,The Tao is considered "All Pervasive",and that everything is a part of the Tao,but the Tao itself transends All Things.All Is One.

Suffering is as much a part of the Way as Joy.
All suffering is experianced by the Tao itself.
Humans have the capacity to endure,and even overcome,suffering and evil.

Of course,how we Taoists view the Tao is basically how we individual Taoists we view The Tao,(we are not required to automatically take the words of Lao Tzu,Chung Tzu,Leih Tzu or any other Taoist sage as some form of "Gospel", but are encouraged to discover the Tao for ourselves) but the Tao istself makes no demands as to how to on anyone.
Believe in the Tao if one wishes,or do not believe in the Tao if one wishes,the Tao contians both.
No "burning in hell" just because one doesn't believe in the Tao the way certian humans may want one to.
Click to expand...

Fascinating. Thanks for sharing.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Let me caution all involved here that this thread is in the Religion Forum, with an enhanced ruleset. Be aware that a high level of civility is required; any post that is needlessly inflammatory may be infracted. "God is a rotten SOB" would be needlessly inflammatory, for instance. Also, before anyone forgets, the Religious Discussion forum is for theistic-based debate and not a suitable forum for debating the existence of God or general religion bashing. Please think before you post. I'm going to let this one run for the time being, but it has potential to draw trouble and trolls so consider this fair warning....
 
I think it is a fair theistic argument to suggest that the Bible is inspired by Satan. All the contradictions would make sense.

Of course, the very concept of the Biblical God is paradoxical at best and contradictory at worst.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

-Epicurus
 
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Jredbaron96 said:
Probably one of the most importan aspects of Christianity is the concept of the all forgiving, all loving, all merciful God. A God that, regardless of the crime, will be willing to forgive and still love you. Seems legit.

But then you have Hell. A pit of eternal damnation, that spews forth the most horrible tortures imaginable.
So, this begs the question: How could an all loving, all merciful, and all forgiving God, knowingly allow his Children, which he is said to love very much, into the fiery pits of hell?

That just sems that hypocrtical.

An all forgiving God would not care what you've done, no matter how horrible. That's what all forgiving means.

An all loving God would love his children, regardless of the crimes committed by the individual.

An all merciful God would never allow his children to suffer such torment that is derived from the fires of Hell.

If God allows one of these things, he is not either all-merciful, all-forgiving, or all-loving.


I eagerly await your responce, and hope we can have an intelligent, and productive debate.

Kind regards,
Jredbaron96
Click to expand...

Your premise is backwards. I have chosen hell, not heaven. God has offered a way out. Some will accept but many will not. Does it make him less merciful/loving/forgiving if I refuse what he has offered to me?
 
CriticalThought said:
I think it is a fair theistic argument to suggest that the Bible is inspired by Satan. All the contradictions would make sense.

Of course, the very concept of the Biblical God is paradoxical at best and contradictory at worst.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

-Epicurus
Click to expand...

I was even allowing that god wrote the bible. But god being a liar is certainly a theological possibility. It's an interpretation of the scripture that doesn't even presume a non-supernatural source. Just like Muslims saying that Allah and Jahovah are the same god upsets some people, and Hindus saying that their gods exist but not western ones is hell-worthy blasphemy to Christians and Muslims... pretty much any expression of faith contradictory to one's own is abhorrent. Isn't the statement of faith of a Wiccan or a Satanist (I know the two are unrelated, they're just both fairly small faiths) as legitimate as any other?

Stopandthink said:
Your premise is backwards. I have chosen hell, not heaven. God has offered a way out. Some will accept but many will not. Does it make him less merciful/loving/forgiving if I refuse what he has offered to me?
Click to expand...

If hell is a place of torture and punishment, why would anyone choose that? If anyone would want to be there, it cannot be the objectively awful place that it is portrayed to be.
 
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cpwill said:
well, that is certainly what Christians believe, anyway :mrgreen:

as for hell, as C.S. Lewis points out, it's gates are locked from the inside. People will choose Hell over Heaven.
Click to expand...

If the god of the Bible is the 'true god', I certainly would. I want zero to do with such a god. I would consider it to be against my principles to beg to be in heaven just to avoid hell.
 
Stopandthink said:
Your premise is backwards. I have chosen hell, not heaven. God has offered a way out. Some will accept but many will not. Does it make him less merciful/loving/forgiving if I refuse what he has offered to me?
Click to expand...

Wouldn't total oblivion of the soul be more merciful and loving then an eternity of the horrific torment?
Seems a little excessive to me to punish someone for things done on earth in a minute amount of time (the human lifespan) in comparrison to ALL ETERNITY
There are certian sects of Taoism that accept the concept of "Hell"(Diyu) where the wicked are punished,but it is only until the condemned is truly repentive,and then they are reincarnated.
In Taoism,even the "Damned in Hell" are given opportunities for Redemption.
 
CriticalThought said:
I think it is a fair theistic argument to suggest that the Bible is inspired by Satan. All the contradictions would make sense.

Of course, the very concept of the Biblical God is paradoxical at best and contradictory at worst.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Click to expand...

not really. if I believe that your homosexuality is sinful, am I wrong because I do not chain you to your room to keep you from committing sinful behavior?

you are asking that God remove your free will and make you a puppet, a robot - not you. you are asking Him to destroy your personality, your ability to choose. you may wish to reconsider the implications of that request.
 
Dezaad said:
If the god of the Bible is the 'true god', I certainly would. I want zero to do with such a god. I would consider it to be against my principles to beg to be in heaven just to avoid hell.
Click to expand...

:) and there you have it. better to rule in hell than serve in heaven, eh?
 
Verthaine said:
Wouldn't total oblivion of the soul be more merciful and loving then an eternity of the horrific torment?
Seems a little excessive to me to punish someone for things done on earth in a minute amount of time (the human lifespan) in comparrison to ALL ETERNITY
There are certian sects of Taoism that accept the concept of "Hell"(Diyu) where the wicked are punished,but it is only until the condemned is truly repentive,and then they are reincarnated.
In Taoism,even the "Damned in Hell" are given opportunities for Redemption.
Click to expand...

But I have a chance to repent now. God is merciful to offer this. So I want to be responsible and accept now because this is the only real chance I get. It is not my place to question if it is fair or not. I take it because I know I have positioned myself as an enemy to God and I deserve what I will be getting. Why would he take my penalty due me? This is the greatest act of love/mercy that I cannot fully explain, yet when accepted produces real radical transformation right now that we can witness. I don't need to speculate when what I need is right here,now.
 
Stopandthink said:
But I have a chance to repent now. God is merciful to offer this. So I want to be responsible and accept now because this is the only real chance I get. It is not my place to question if it is fair or not. I take it because I know I have positioned myself as an enemy to God and I deserve what I will be getting. Why would he take my penalty due me? This is the greatest act of love/mercy that I cannot fully explain, yet when accepted produces real radical transformation right now that we can witness. I don't need to speculate when what I need is right here,now.
Click to expand...

If it is not your place to question it is fair or not,I can understand that.
I myself am not under that restriction.
I also understand that the Supreme is under no obligation to provide me an answer.

What have you done to "positition yourself as an enemy of God"?I don't quite understand that concept.
Was you once an avowed Satanist?
 
cpwill said:
you are asking that God remove your free will and make you a puppet, a robot - not you. you are asking Him to destroy your personality, your ability to choose. you may wish to reconsider the implications of that request.
Click to expand...

But isn't the constant threat of violence coercion (hell) doing exactly the same thing? How is "don't live your life any way other than the way I want you to or I'll send you to hell" different from "pick my cotton or I'll whip you"? Sure, you have a choice. But there's a severe punishment for making any but the pre-approved choice. That's not really a choice at all.
 
Paschendale said:
But isn't the constant threat of violence coercion (hell) doing exactly the same thing? How is "don't live your life any way other than the way I want you to or I'll send you to hell" different from "pick my cotton or I'll whip you"? Sure, you have a choice. But there's a severe punishment for making any but the pre-approved choice. That's not really a choice at all.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you,but I think "don't live your life any way other than the way the human beings who wrote the Christian Bible said God said you should or God wii send you to hell" would be a more accurate sentance.

The opinions expressed by the writers of the Christian Bible are purely their own,and may or may not actually reflect the opinions of "God".
 
Verthaine said:
I totally agree with you,but I think "don't live your life any way other than the way the human beings who wrote the Christian Bible said God said you should or God wii send you to hell" would be a more accurate sentance.

The opinions expressed by the writers of the Christian Bible are purely their own,and may or may not actually reflect the opinions of "God".
Click to expand...

Well yes of course, but for the sake of this argument, I'm assuming that god exists and wrote the bible. If there is no hell, than no one can send you there. In a non-supernatural world, then the argument becomes "don't live your life in any way other than how we interpret the bible or we'll kill you," which has been a recurring theme for thousands of years, and continues today, even here in the United States.

But to return the central theme of the OP, the term "all loving" doesn't really mesh with the idea of a god who'll abandon you to a fate worse than a human can possibly conceive of, just because we don't love him enough.
 
Paschendale said:
But isn't the constant threat of violence coercion (hell) doing exactly the same thing? How is "don't live your life any way other than the way I want you to or I'll send you to hell" different from "pick my cotton or I'll whip you"? Sure, you have a choice. But there's a severe punishment for making any but the pre-approved choice. That's not really a choice at all.
Click to expand...

It depends on how you look at it. I don't see it as a threat, but a necessity to remind me that I am responsible for my actions. I don't feel forced to live a certain way, because God has already stated that my actions do nothing to merit my salvation. It is given freely and once my heart has been humbled by that, the obedience that follows is a joy because I can see that God knew what was best for me all along.
 
Stopandthink said:
It depends on how you look at it. I don't see it as a threat, but a necessity to remind me that I am responsible for my actions. I don't feel forced to live a certain way, because God has already stated that my actions do nothing to merit my salvation. It is given freely and once my heart has been humbled by that, the obedience that follows is a joy because I can see that God knew what was best for me all along.
Click to expand...

You've said this so well.
 
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