• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Is the Christian God is contradictory?

cpwill said:
:) and there you have it. better to rule in hell than serve in heaven, eh?
Click to expand...

Actually not quite accurate. It is simply my opinion that "god" is despicable. Like I said, I wouldn't want any thing to do with him. So, no, the cliche does not apply.
 
Stopandthink said:
It depends on how you look at it. I don't see it as a threat, but a necessity to remind me that I am responsible for my actions. I don't feel forced to live a certain way, because God has already stated that my actions do nothing to merit my salvation. It is given freely and once my heart has been humbled by that, the obedience that follows is a joy because I can see that God knew what was best for me all along.
Click to expand...

Salvation from what? The aforementioned Hell...? My reaction is not to feel grateful, but rather entitled. The notion of hell is ludicrous to me, so if it is something god created, then I can only feel entitled to his sacrifice and subsequent salvation.
 
Stopandthink said:
It depends on how you look at it. I don't see it as a threat, but a necessity to remind me that I am responsible for my actions. I don't feel forced to live a certain way, because God has already stated that my actions do nothing to merit my salvation. It is given freely and once my heart has been humbled by that, the obedience that follows is a joy because I can see that God knew what was best for me all along.
Click to expand...

But if your actions mean nothing, then it's fine to rape and murder children... so long as you're pious? You can live however you want, and still be rewarded as long as you feel guilty about god not wanting you to do some things? That means that a very pious Torquemada, who tortured and murdered people in the name of his faith, doing objectively evil actions in a grand scale, goes to heaven because he was motivated to do those things by his faith? The 9/11 hijackers were willing to give their lives for their beliefs. Do their actions not matter?

But again, you're saying that giving up your free will and having "obedience" towards god is what makes you not be tortured forever when you die. That sounds an awful lot like being compelled by the threat of violence to me.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Probably one of the most importan aspects of Christianity is the concept of the all forgiving, all loving, all merciful God. A God that, regardless of the crime, will be willing to forgive and still love you. Seems legit.

But then you have Hell. A pit of eternal damnation, that spews forth the most horrible tortures imaginable.
So, this begs the question: How could an all loving, all merciful, and all forgiving God, knowingly allow his Children, which he is said to love very much, into the fiery pits of hell?

That just sems that hypocrtical.

An all forgiving God would not care what you've done, no matter how horrible. That's what all forgiving means.

An all loving God would love his children, regardless of the crimes committed by the individual.

An all merciful God would never allow his children to suffer such torment that is derived from the fires of Hell.

If God allows one of these things, he is not either all-merciful, all-forgiving, or all-loving.


I eagerly await your responce, and hope we can have an intelligent, and productive debate.

Kind regards,
Jredbaron96
Click to expand...
The concept of Hell is a ridiculous one. Religion was created by human beings. As such, it incorporates every manner of selfishness and petty insecurity we can throw into the mix.

It's laughable to suggest that God would lower Himself to such a base expression as 'punishment'.
 
Paschendale said:
But if your actions mean nothing, then it's fine to rape and murder children... so long as you're pious? You can live however you want, and still be rewarded as long as you feel guilty about god not wanting you to do some things? That means that a very pious Torquemada, who tortured and murdered people in the name of his faith, doing objectively evil actions in a grand scale, goes to heaven because he was motivated to do those things by his faith? The 9/11 hijackers were willing to give their lives for their beliefs. Do their actions not matter?

But again, you're saying that giving up your free will and having "obedience" towards god is what makes you not be tortured forever when you die. That sounds an awful lot like being compelled by the threat of violence to me.
Click to expand...

But I never said your actions mean nothing. They just are not the basis of salvation, which is only offered for you to accept or decline. Your actions,then,are a product of the heart and you are recognized by them. "A bad tree cannot bear good fruit,nor can a good tree bear bad fruit. A tree is recognized by its fruit".
Free will is not given up, but expressed in chosen obedience as these fruits. Therefore evil actions are the outpouring of evil hearts, as in the case of your given examples.
 
Yes. Free will is not given up; it is expressed in chosen obedience.
 
Paschendale said:
Or maybe god is actually just a petty warmonger who can't see past his own ego. The depictions of Satan as a one-dimensional being dedicated only to sadistically hurting others, mainly to taunt god, seem like the account of an childish egomaniac who has to dehumanize those who disagree with him. We have only god's word that he's the good guy in this story. Maybe he isn't. Maybe the bible is written by an unreliable narrator. Maybe it's a propaganda piece to keep people from recognizing the heroic rebellion of Lucifer against a tyrannical dictator.

The one story that always pops out at me is during the exodus from Egypt. We all know about Moses going to pharaoh and saying "let my people go!" Pharaoh says no and Moses and god send down the ten plagues. What a lot of people don't hear about is how Pharaoh said yes several times. After the first set of plagues and each time onward, Pharaoh agrees to let the Hebrews leave Egypt. But then god "hardens pharaoh's heart" and makes him change his mind. God overrides pharaoh's free will, controls his mind, and makes him escalate a conflict with Moses, specifically so god can inflict more suffering on the Egyptian people. Pharaoh doesn't bear the brunt of these plagues. Innocent people who had absolutely no control over whether or new the Hebrews were enslaved suffered. And god, after letting his people suffer as slaves for 400 years before doing anything about it (he's also the one who sent them to Egypt in the first place), orchestrated the entire conflict, requiring both sides to refuse to compromise, just so he could rain down destruction, pain, and death on the otherwise innocent Egyptian people.

That's the most evil thing I've ever heard of.
Click to expand...

Just letting off steam, or do you have a point?
 
Last edited:
American said:
Just letting off steam, or do you have a point?
Click to expand...

I think he has made his point abundantly clear.
Now, are you going to add anything to this discussion, or continue with this condescending attitude that you keep trying and failing to hide?
 
American said:
Just letting off steam, or do you have a point?
Click to expand...

Suggesting that the contradiction could be explained by an unreliable narrator. It's not an uncommon literary technique. And it would explain how human and divine morality can be so different.

Stopandthink said:
But I never said your actions mean nothing. They just are not the basis of salvation, which is only offered for you to accept or decline. Your actions,then,are a product of the heart and you are recognized by them. "A bad tree cannot bear good fruit,nor can a good tree bear bad fruit. A tree is recognized by its fruit".
Free will is not given up, but expressed in chosen obedience as these fruits. Therefore evil actions are the outpouring of evil hearts, as in the case of your given examples.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm quite moral and not in the slightest obedient to any god or mystical creatures. Where does that put me?
 
Last edited:
Paschendale said:
Suggesting that the contradiction could be explained by an unreliable narrator. It's not an uncommon literary technique. And it would explain how human and divine morality can be so different.



Well, I'm quite moral and not in the slightest obedient to any god or mystical creatures. Where does that put me?
Click to expand...

Lost and blindly wandering off on your own. Jesus used the analogy of sheep and shepherd. He spoke about how his sheep listen and follow because they know the shepherds voice. This analogy shows beautifully how he leads his flock to safety and has utmost concern for lost sheep. The shepherd lays down his life for his sheep and the rejoicing in heaven when even one sheep repents and is added to the flock.

I trust the shepherd for my safety because he came after me when I was lost and know that I need him to lead me. I don't think about how he could throw me into hell if I dont love him enough or pick his cotton. Do you see why that doesn't make any sense to me? All I do is follow because I know without him I don't know where I am going.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
I think he has made his point abundantly clear.
Now, are you going to add anything to this discussion, or continue with this condescending attitude that you keep trying and failing to hide?
Click to expand...

Yes, I'd like to know what you think you've discovered?
 
American said:
Yes, I'd like to know what you think you've discovered?
Click to expand...

I have many things to say about you American. None of which "I think I discovered". Nontheless, this is talk reserved for the penalty box. You got something to say, say it there.

Now, do you have anyhting to contribute? Thoughts? comments?
 
Jredbaron96 said:
I have many things to say about you American. None of which "I think I discovered". Nontheless, this is talk reserved for the penalty box. You got something to say, say it there.

Now, do you have anyhting to contribute? Thoughts? comments?
Click to expand...

Yeah, try not to be so bitter.
 
Stopandthink said:
Lost and blindly wandering off on your own. Jesus used the analogy of sheep and shepherd. He spoke about how his sheep listen and follow because they know the shepherds voice. This analogy shows beautifully how he leads his flock to safety and has utmost concern for lost sheep. The shepherd lays down his life for his sheep and the rejoicing in heaven when even one sheep repents and is added to the flock.

I trust the shepherd for my safety because he came after me when I was lost and know that I need him to lead me. I don't think about how he could throw me into hell if I dont love him enough or pick his cotton. Do you see why that doesn't make any sense to me? All I do is follow because I know without him I don't know where I am going.
Click to expand...

Doesn't make sense to me because I am not a sheep.Some of us are meant to wander on our own and discover things for ourselves.Just because I am "lost in the wildernss" doesn't mean I can't enjoy my journey through it.Not all beings have a "herd" instinct.
 
American said:
Yeah, try not to be so bitter.
Click to expand...

I'm the bitter one? Or are you just telling yourself that?

And for the sake of staying on topic, I will leave it at that.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Probably one of the most importan aspects of Christianity is the concept of the all forgiving, all loving, all merciful God. A God that, regardless of the crime, will be willing to forgive and still love you. Seems legit.

But then you have Hell. A pit of eternal damnation, that spews forth the most horrible tortures imaginable.
So, this begs the question: How could an all loving, all merciful, and all forgiving God, knowingly allow his Children, which he is said to love very much, into the fiery pits of hell?

That just sems that hypocrtical.

An all forgiving God would not care what you've done, no matter how horrible. That's what all forgiving means.

An all loving God would love his children, regardless of the crimes committed by the individual.

An all merciful God would never allow his children to suffer such torment that is derived from the fires of Hell.

If God allows one of these things, he is not either all-merciful, all-forgiving, or all-loving.


I eagerly await your responce, and hope we can have an intelligent, and productive debate.

Kind regards,
Jredbaron96
Click to expand...

Free will is a necessary condition of salvation. This freedom necessitates the possibility of damnation.
 
"...circumstance, uniqueness and solitude, is the cause of various character changes this god went through in the course of history. He has neither siblings nor peers. It's a very human story, but Miles doesn't portray this god as a human personification with superior powers. On the contrary, this god is unaware of the powers he possesses until he tries them out. They become, predictably, addictive with the passage of time. As the god develops, he exhibits changes in character that would be considered "growing up" in people. Finally, for unknown reasons, but perhaps just fatigue, the god retires from human contact. People are left only with previous lessons to follow."

excerpt from an Amazon customer review of "God: A Biography" by Jack Miles
 
Hard Truth said:
"...circumstance, uniqueness and solitude, is the cause of various character changes this god went through in the course of history. He has neither siblings nor peers. It's a very human story, but Miles doesn't portray this god as a human personification with superior powers. On the contrary, this god is unaware of the powers he possesses until he tries them out. They become, predictably, addictive with the passage of time. As the god develops, he exhibits changes in character that would be considered "growing up" in people. Finally, for unknown reasons, but perhaps just fatigue, the god retires from human contact. People are left only with previous lessons to follow."

excerpt from an Amazon customer review of "God: A Biography" by Jack Miles
Click to expand...

God is eternal. He is not affected by time.
 
Paleocon said:
God is eternal. He is not affected by time.
Click to expand...

He did seem to change character through time as documented by that book "God: A Biography" which is based on research of the Bible and other 'holy' documents.
 
Hard Truth said:
He did seem to change character through time as documented by that book "God: A Biography" which is based on research of the Bible and other 'holy' documents.
Click to expand...

How did he change?
 
Paleocon said:
How did he change?
Click to expand...

I haven't read the book, I just heard a radio interview, but from what I recall, he/it became less violent and jealous, (for example, instead of drowning the whole planet he sent Jesus down), later he/it mostly stopped talking to people directly.
 
Hard Truth said:
I haven't read the book, I just heard a radio interview, but from what I recall, he/it became less violent and jealous, (for example, instead of drowning the whole planet he sent Jesus down), later he/it mostly stopped talking to people directly.
Click to expand...

He intended all those things from the beginning, thus it was not a change on his part.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom