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Problems in the Catholic Church

ChuckBerry said:
If someone doesn't believe that the host is the transubstantiated body of Christ, then why should the Church, who does believe that, give communion to such a person? It is a serious commitment that is required and full knowledge of what communion means before that sacrament can be given to a person. If a person is serious about their faith in God and their love of Christ, then they will understand and respect the veneration of the host in which Catholics engage.
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That doesn't make sense either. Did Christ not go from door to door? What about those who never considered christianity at that time as one God instead of many, like the Romans had? So this woman that does not belong to a club is turned away because she didn't join that club prior? See what I mean?

Nobody needs to respect anything except God and Christ. Period. I don't understand a lot, and I am certainly no expert in theology or religions. I go with what my heart and gut tells me...not some guy in robes or some woman in her birthday suit jumping around a fire. But if I were speaking in behalf of God and put myself in that position, I certainly would not demand someone join my clique to bring him or her closer to God. Would you?
 
Just speculating here...

A priest would get much more alone time with a child than a teacher or coach who had to be certified by the state in some way.

A pedophile who wasn't sociopathic might become a priest in order to repress his overall sexuality. Then, it might not work out.

When I lived in NYC in the late 50's there were heroic priests. Makes this all the more sadder that the good deeds are so stained by the bad.

ChuckBerry said:
What makes you think that the Church "attracts" pedophiles? I would think being a school teacher or a coach would be a much more fruitful profession for a pedophile.
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My wife is not a Catholic and is welcome in our parish and attends Mass with me every Sunday that I am on shore. I married her and love her even though she is not Catholic and I have no lack of respect for her because of it. But because she is not a confirmed Catholic she cannot participate in the sacrament of communion. I am sorry that you don't understand the seriousness with which Catholics take the sacraments. And I am sorry that you think poorly of Catholics who have respect for their church and its traditions.
 
ChuckBerry said:
My wife is not a Catholic and is welcome in our parish and attends Mass with me every Sunday that I am on shore. I married her and love her even though she is not Catholic and I have no lack of respect for her because of it. But because she is not a confirmed Catholic she cannot participate in the sacrament of communion. I am sorry that you don't understand the seriousness with which Catholics take the sacraments. And I am sorry that you think poorly of Catholics who have respect for their church and its traditions.
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I'm sorry if I offended you, ChuckBerry. I don't belong to any organized religion. I am pagan-christian. I know that sounds strange, but you not understanding my beliefs is the same as me not understanding yours. I was just asking what I've thought in my head. Perhaps I should not have asked. Lesson learned. Again.
I have more questions, but...I believe I am done now. I'll continue to let them roll around in my head instead of typing them out.
 
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I think it happens in Catholicism because everyone is raised to believe priests are noble and vigilent and holy.

Which is bull****.

I also believe that followers are encouraged to trust them and leave their children alone with them without questioning the activities that occur.

This is suppose to be good for the child's soul and spirtial life.

Which is also bull****.

Basically: it happens because parents enable it, parishoners turn a blind eye to it, and these poor children are brainwashed in believing that these men are respectable men of the cloth which is just ****ing disgusting.
 
It's based on an OPINION. My opinions are absolutely worthless. It's all just speculation and I never, in any way, claim to know what I'm talking about. The thought MIGHT emanate from religious instruction, confessions and things like that might allow greater privacy for those of ill intent. Maybe not.

ChuckBerry said:
...and this is statement is based on what, exactly? When do priests get "much more" alone time with a child?
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Aunt Spiker said:
I also believe that followers are encouraged to trust them and leave their children alone with them without questioning the activities that occur.
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...and you believe that, why? It makes no sense that you would assume a Catholic parent would drop their kids off at a local church wave goodbye and ask no questions about what the children will be doing and when. None whatsoever.

Basically: it happens because parents enable it, parishoners turn a blind eye to it, and these poor children are brainwashed in believing that these men are respectable men of the cloth which is just ****ing disgusting.
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Your comments make me think you've never actually met a Catholic in your whole life. We teach our children to respect authority, but that authority is bound to the same rules of decency and conduct as every other Catholic. It is outrageous to even entertain the notion that any parent knowingly gave a pass to any pedophile priest simply because he was a priest.




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Enola said:
you not understanding my beliefs is the same as me not understanding yours.
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But I have not publicly attacked your religion; and what you call questions sound much more like accusations to me.




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specklebang said:
It's based on an OPINION. My opinions are absolutely worthless. It's all just speculation and I never, in any way, claim to know what I'm talking about. The thought MIGHT emanate from religious instruction, confessions and things like that might allow greater privacy for those of ill intent. Maybe not.
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Then I suggest that you learn about what you speculate on so that your opinions can be more than worthless, else why waste time forming worthless things?




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ChuckBerry said:
But I have not publicly attacked your religion; and what you call questions sound much more like accusations to me.




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Believe me, if I wanted to attack your religion, I would have done so. I am not the peaches and cream I'm thought to be. I am behaving here because I enjoy this board and the people who are here. I also would not have apologized to you. I don't say I'm sorry for anyone for anything...unless I mean it. My questions were just that, questions. With a big assed slippery slope to not tread on toes but still questions I had in my head. So I asked. Your perception that it was an attack is exactly that. A perception. That is wrong.
 
ChuckBerry said:
Then I suggest that you learn about what you speculate on so that your opinions can be more than worthless, else why waste time forming worthless things?




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WTF??? Questions are not worthless when someone seeks to learn. I suggest you take a deep breath and chill. That response was uncalled for to yet another person who is giving an opinion. Because you don't like that opinion does not make it worthless but perhaps your skewered opinons are? See how that goes?
 
ChuckBerry said:
Do you know what communion is? It's the transubstantiated body of Christ, that someone who is a confirmed Catholic takes to join in literal communion with the body of Christ, and thus with the body of the church, their fellow members. It is improper for non-Catholics to take it since they are not members of the church. When I went to a Baptist service with my wife on Christmas eve they have a version of wine and wafers that is similar to communion, and I did not take it so that I would not disrespect their communion.
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Oh, yes, I understand what communion is.

Christ invited me to join him at his communion table . . . not the Pope.

The Catholic Church is the only Christian religion that denies people communion. (Oh, and if you're Catholic? Had you taken communion at that Baptist Church? You would have committed a mortal sin. You'da had to be reeeel careful driving home. ;)
 
Enola said:
WTF??? Questions are not worthless when someone seeks to learn. I suggest you take a deep breath and chill. That response was uncalled for to yet another person who is giving an opinion. Because you don't like that opinion does not make it worthless but perhaps your skewered opinons are? See how that goes?
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Thank you for your suggestion. My suggestion for you is to re-read specklebang's post where he referred to his own opinion as worthless.


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ChuckBerry said:
...and you believe that, why? It makes no sense that you would assume a Catholic parent would drop their kids off at a local church wave goodbye and ask no questions about what the children will be doing and when. None whatsoever.



Your comments make me think you've never actually met a Catholic in your whole life. We teach our children to respect authority, but that authority is bound to the same rules of decency and conduct as every other Catholic. It is outrageous to even entertain the notion that any parent knowingly gave a pass to any pedophile priest simply because he was a priest.




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Oh - that's exactly how it happens. It's blind ignorance: willing blind ignorance.

Parents have no consideration and are often in shock when they hear the aweful news years later. Have you heard the accounts from parents and caregivers over WHY they didn't 'do anything' - why no one does anything even when they had suspicions? Why - after countless priests finally admit to it and are brought out in the light parents STILL blindly toss their children into the Lion's Den. . . parents are in denial, parents refuse to teach their children the truth, all of which enables the entire cycle to continue.

The ones who do NOT function this way - mentally - are the ones who make change and save their children and do not perpetuate this cycle: not everyone is a victim, mind you.

And it's not just in Catholicism: anytime you have an individual that children are told to respect (teachers, ministers, scout leaders, etc) and parents were also raised as children being taught to respect that said individual = you have individuals seeking out that spot purely to prey easily on children. You have false faith and ignorance and a lack of caution.

It happens in all religions - not just Catholicism, as well. Don't tell me this isn't what happens in cults.

Parents blindly trust which enables situations.
Perpetrators encourage this blind trust and seeks out a means to create situations in which they can do what they want with children (it's a disgusting psychological mindset that all pedophiles have)
Child is raised to believe that they can't and shouldn't tell on supposedly good people when they do bad things.
Child never tells. . . because of how they were raised.

It's a circle of abuse - enablers and victims perpetuating the cycle.

People ask 'why does it keep happening' - and that's why it keeps happening.

Do you think I'm going to trust a school teacher or priest with my kids? **** no - I'm not an idiot.
 
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NoC_T said:
It's probably the case that such individuals were flawed to begin with, and that years of celibacy only exacerbated the latent tendencies, until they surfaced. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that religious figures from religions that allow marriage, evidence a much lower likelihood of paedophilia, by statistical frequency.
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It seems that missing from every discussion of this sort is any credible information regarding how likely Catholic priests are to be pedophiles or other sexual abusers, compared to the general population.

What we do have is occasional news stories about Catholic priests molesting children, and the Catholic church doing a very bad job of dealing with the situation. But it's a very big organization, and there are a very large number of Catholic priests. Of course it's going to happen within any large, identifiable group of people, that from time to time, a member of that group will turn out to be a sexual abuser.

I can think of a number of reasons why it is possible that Catholic priests might be more likely than others to be sexual abusers, but before it's useful to discuss any such reasons, or what do do about them, it really seems that the missing step needs to be taken of identifying whether or not this is truly a group that is significantly more prone than the general public to such abuse.
 
Yes: the cycle of victim/perpetrator/enabler is not just found within this Catholic problem - this is how things are in ANY circle in which children are abused.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
it really seems that the missing step needs to be taken of identifying whether or not this is truly a group that is significantly more prone than the general public to such abuse.
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Thank God, someone that suggests looking for information to prove/disprove a hypothesis rather than making baseless accusations out of uninformed opinions.

You are entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to base them on nothing. Hate the Catholic church if you must, but hate it for what it is, not what you feel it is.



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I don't know who you are addressing that to, but I don't "hate" the catholic church. I don't trust ANY organized religion.
And you, sir, put your armor on if anyone even remotely asks about it. Which seems strange to me unless deep down you wonder the same things but refuse to look further into it and blindly follow regardless.
 
Draft survey: 4,450 priests accused of sex abuse - CNN

Draft survey: 4,450 priests accused of sex abuse


February 17, 2004

Children accused more than 4,000 priests of sexual abuse between 1950 and 2002, according to a draft survey for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

The survey, to be released February 27, found that children made more than 11,000 allegations of sexual abuse by priests. The 4,450 accused priests represent about 4 percent of the 110,000 priests who served during the 52 years covered by the study.

The report is based on a nationwide survey of church records, and was compiled by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice for the conference. The bishops' conference commissioned the survey to get a better understanding of the scope of the crisis.

CNN reviewed a draft copy of the survey. Officials said it may be slightly changed before its release.

More than half of the accused priests had only one allegation against them. Nearly 25 percent, or 1,112 priests, had two or three allegations, and almost 13 percent, or 578 priests, had four to nine allegations, according to the draft report. Nearly 3 percent, or 133 of the priests, had 10 or more allegations.

The report said that 6,700 of the 11,000 allegations were investigated and substantiated, and another 1,000 were unsubstantiated. The remaining 3,300 were not investigated because the priests involved had died by the time the allegation was made.

The director of the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests said Monday that the survey's numbers are low.

"Bishops have tried to hide this for years, so there is no reason to believe all of a sudden they would change their ways," David Clohessy said. "The only prudent thing to do is to assume this is not the entire truth. This is a survey, not a report or investigation."

SNAP, founded in 1989, describes itself on its Web site as the nation's largest, oldest and most active support group for people victimized by religious authority figures.

The president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a written statement calling the reports "a very sobering and important milestone."

"I have not seen the reports, and so I cannot comment on their substance," the statement from Bishop Wilton D. Gregory said. "But I want to reaffirm that the bishops requested these studies so that we could understand as fully as possible what caused this terrible occurrence in the life of our community to make sure that it never happens again.
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How many people of the clergy have been convicted of sexual abuse

How many people of the clergy have been convicted of sexual abuse?

Answer

This is a very difficult question and there are no correct statistics because often the victim of abuse by clergy are too ashamed to come forward. Particularly in the Catholic churches there is a huge effort to keep any convictions secret. There is an aura of goodness regarding the clergy in all denominations and thus, many of them get clemency.
Prosecutions are rare and only 75% of ministers or priests face convictions or serve prison time.

In Boston there are 70 priests and ministers who have been sent to prison for sexually assaulting children in 1985 and the numbers have grown since this time and punishable by more severe sentences.
Publicly reported convictions going back 17 years reveals that:
75 clergymen have been convicted of, or pleaded guilty to criminal child molestation charges since the Gilbert Authe case in Louisiana in 1985.
Half of these (38) were Roman Catholic priests, the rest Methodists, Pentecostals, Baptist Ministers, Episcopal priests, etc.
Many of the sentence were 10 years or more ranging from 30 days to life in prison.
Although there are more and more as the years go by the disgusting problem still rears it's ugly head and there are more than ever of the clergy molesting children and particularly women.
A spokesperson for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops said there was no national system of tracking the number of priests convicted of child molestation.
The Catholics have be the center of focus in the U.S. and Canada and in the media, but a great many ministers from other denominations have been convicted. 10 Baptist minister, 3 Pentecostals, 5 Methodists, and two Episcopal priests convicted or pleading guilty to child sexual abuse since 1985.
Victims groups along with prosecutors say most cases of child abuse by clergy never get as far as the prosecutor's desk. Many settle quietly out of court. In the 1990s 70 cases settled out of court. This cost involves Archdiocese of Boston, Dallas, Santa Fe and Bridgeport, Conn. and many more at the tidy cost of $1 billion dollars or more and counting.
There are fewer convictions because the legal standards for criminal cases are higher than for civil cases and often criminal statute of limitations has run out for adults who were sexually abused as children by clergy. The accused are often influential and well liked in their communities. The 'do gooder' citizens are often in denial that such a Godly figure could possibly have committed one or more of these crimes. The clergy that molests children generally do so with children from broken homes or dysfunctional homes or the poor. The churches hesitate to report clergy to police making the police officers jobs extremely difficult to build a case on. Often parents of the sexually abused child decline to be interviewed and 99% of children abused by clergy will deny it. If a clergy is suspected of the sexual abuses of one or more children they are moved out of state and thus have committed no crime and are innocent.
Here is an example of how most of the cases go:
Jalal Harb, assistant state attorney in southern Florida, prosecuted James Lee Williams, pastor of the Modest Street Church of God in Lakeland, Fla., and won a sexual-battery conviction and a life sentence in 1995. In two years the state Clemency Board heard from 30 people who spoke on his behalf and Governor Lawton Chiles accepted this board's clemency recommendation.
There is nothing lower than a follower of God using this power to molest and defile children or women and not atone for their own sins which they preach to their partitions, but, instead feel they have the power to break the law. The may get away with it, but, if one believes in God, I'd hate to be a clergyman that has committed these crimes.
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Enola said:
And you, sir, put your armor on if anyone even remotely asks about it.
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You never asked "what is communion?". You never asked "what do Catholics believe about this or that?". You never read the link I posted earlier and posited questions based on its information. Asking a question like "How can you believe in such things?" is not really a question, it's a judgement. So please, take off the sheep clothing.


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Does the Catholic church rate as disproportionately afflicted with paedophilia, above and beyond that encountered in the general population?

It's a good question. And a valid one.

Yet for all that, it remains that we should rightfully revile such behaviour, as being perhaps worse than when it is encountered elsewhere. Because this is an institution charged with the responsibility of representing God on this earth. This is an institution that ostensibly practices every form of piousness. Just as when they're committed by politicians, these crimes appear that bit worse, for being committed by individuals who practice hypocrisy in every possible way. To me, a paedophile factory worker seems that bit less disgusting than a politician or priest; both of whom underscore their entire vocations preaching to us all about 'values'.

The priest who preaches love and compassion, before buggering the altar boy. The politician who preaches 'family values' before getting his rocks off with an underage prostitute.

If the Church wishes to be held as something sacrosanct, it's members should conduct themselves as such.

That's why it's not hypocritical or unfair. In demanding that people must hold themselves to the highest possible standards at all times, they are obligated, in terms both of their station and the sanctimoniousness of their platitudes, to set the example. They should rightfully expect to be held more stringently to such codes of conduct.
 
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