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Is God inside of time?

J

Joni

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Full disclaimer. I'm an atheist but I do like to think about these issues and I am not trying to bait anyone.

From a scriptural point of view, is the Christian God inside or outside of time? In other words, is he moving along time with us, not knowing if Adam will eat the apple? Or did he set up the Garden of Eden, knowing already that the apple would be consumed?

Are we like a DVD to Him which he keeps on his shelf to watch at his pleasure or is his time moving alongside our own?

I assume he did not know Adam would eat the apple or how his bet with Satan on Job would turn out. That's was a sucker's bet if he did know!

I'd like to know how religious people view this question.

Does omnipotence or omniscience mean that He already knows what we are going to do because he can be at any point in time at will? How does free will fit in with this concept?

If He is outside of time, that would argue for predestination, I suppose?

An inquiring mind, wants to know.

Joni
 
Joni said:
Full disclaimer. I'm an atheist but I do like to think about these issues and I am not trying to bait anyone.

From a scriptural point of view, is the Christian God inside or outside of time? In other words, is he moving along time with us, not knowing if Adam will eat the apple? Or did he set up the Garden of Eden, knowing already that the apple would be consumed?

Are we like a DVD to Him which he keeps on his shelf to watch at his pleasure or is his time moving alongside our own?

I assume he did not know Adam would eat the apple or how his bet with Satan on Job would turn out. That's was a sucker's bet if he did know!

I'd like to know how religious people view this question.

Does omnipotence or omniscience mean that He already knows what we are going to do because he can be at any point in time at will? How does free will fit in with this concept?

If He is outside of time, that would argue for predestination, I suppose?

An inquiring mind, wants to know.

Joni
Click to expand...
Your questions brings up some very interesting ideas for me. I guess the concept of free will would imply that a christian god did not know what Adam would do.

If he is outside of time then wouldn't the free will concept be thrown out the door? If everything is predestined we do not have a choice, no matter what we do..... I don't know how to explain what I am thinking other than to reference Alanis Morissette's song Ironic. Predestination also throws my fav., Chaos theory out the window and that is based in mathematics.
 
Full disclaimer:
I don't practice any dogmatic religion, but I would probably be considered religious if you observed my life carefully.;)

My concept of God is not one that is dependent upon time nor space. It doesn't "know" what will happen, but exists and flows in and around us (us in the big sense, not the personal sense). It's personal for those who need a personal God, and impersonal for those who don't, and neither is advantageous except in that we believe it to be.

As for predestination, there could be an element of that at work, but in my philosophy, all works for the eventual good.:)
 
That's one thing that's always confused me.

How can you have free will if God already knows what you're gonna do?
 
I believe he knows all things before they happen. Our free will does not undermine God's authority though. He is always sovereign over all things, but at the same time we are responsible for our actions. It is a mystery and reaches our limit in understanding how these fit together, but we can still see a basis for it.

Since God knows all now and in the future, it helps to think about God's will in two ways. In one way, God has stated what his will is and we know what he expects. An example is when God said do not murder. In another way, Gods will is what actually happens. We can call it his secret will because the outcome of events may or may not reflect His stated will due to the fact that we have free choice and may choose against his stated will. An example here would be if someone does murder. It is against Gods spoken will but at the same time that person had the free choice of action. The murder that was committed never caught God off guard. God was sovereign over that murder even though it went against his stated will. So now was God responsible for that murder? Of course not. Just because God knew it would occur did not force that person to make that decision.

An example of this can be taken from the account of Jesus' death. God had talked about Jesus dying way back in Genesis and how this would be His grand plan to overthrow evil and provide a sacrifice for all people. So did God kill Jesus or did man? Man did because it was mans actions that decided his death.

So, it is comforting for Christians to know that God is sovereign and he will accomplish what he wills, but at the same time we need to be deliberate in our actions because they are absolutely real and have real meaning.
 
Have no belief in god whatsoever. I will respond as I was taught in school as a child. This god knows what we will do. We do have the option of free choice but he knows the choice we will make beforehand. It's kind of a dumb thought because if it knows we will make the wrong choice why does it let us. Doesn't seem like a very loving god. The idea floors me that anyone can consider this thing loving. If I pull lever A I will blow up and kill 1000 people with me. This loving god gives me the option of pulling lever A and does not stop me. Sounds like faulty logic to me. It equates in my head no god. For the sack of this thread though this god is within and outside of time. Within to be with the creation. Outside because it is forever or eternal.
 
Something bigger than ourselves is inside us. Yes.


Edit - just to say that in my ignorance I think that IT is beyond time beyond space beyond life

I dont think our mortal little brains can get a concept....


but IT IS here there and everywhere
 
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Stopandthink said:
I believe he knows all things before they happen. Our free will does not undermine God's authority though. He is always sovereign over all things, but at the same time we are responsible for our actions. It is a mystery and reaches our limit in understanding how these fit together, but we can still see a basis for it.

Since God knows all now and in the future, it helps to think about God's will in two ways. In one way, God has stated what his will is and we know what he expects. An example is when God said do not murder. In another way, Gods will is what actually happens. We can call it his secret will because the outcome of events may or may not reflect His stated will due to the fact that we have free choice and may choose against his stated will. An example here would be if someone does murder. It is against Gods spoken will but at the same time that person had the free choice of action. The murder that was committed never caught God off guard. God was sovereign over that murder even though it went against his stated will. So now was God responsible for that murder? Of course not. Just because God knew it would occur did not force that person to make that decision.

An example of this can be taken from the account of Jesus' death. God had talked about Jesus dying way back in Genesis and how this would be His grand plan to overthrow evil and provide a sacrifice for all people. So did God kill Jesus or did man? Man did because it was mans actions that decided his death.

So, it is comforting for Christians to know that God is sovereign and he will accomplish what he wills, but at the same time we need to be deliberate in our actions because they are absolutely real and have real meaning.
Click to expand...

:stars:
so even if god knows people will commit sin he still gives people free will and tells the not to be bad? That seems.... well my only response is :stars:
 
taxigirl said:
:stars:
so even if god knows people will commit sin he still gives people free will and tells the not to be bad? That seems.... well my only response is :stars:
Click to expand...


We were given free will we have to choose .... otherwise we would be angels taxigirl :)



then again, what do I know
 
I beleive in God as a spiritual being, the essence of my soul. The situations or circumstances that are presented to me are for me to make a choices and that I am here for God's purpose, not mine. The choices I make are either God driven or of my own making. I am not talking about simple everyday decisions, but, those that require thought, consideration and contemplation. I meditate and seek to find an answer within the quiet of my soul. I get a "feeling" regarding what I should do. I cannot tell you that every time I listened to my "inner voice" things worked out for me the way I wanted, but, I can tell you that every time I followed that inner voice I knew I was doing the "right thing". Whenever I do not follow that "inner voice" I pay a personal price, it could be second guessing myself, consternation or knowing that I have not been true to myself.

I do not beleive that God knows what I will do every time I am presented with a situation, I was given a good mind, great direction , set of standard by which I was raised and the free will to make a choice.
 
Mya said:
We were given free will we have to choose .... otherwise we would be angels taxigirl :)



then again, what do I know
Click to expand...

I just can't agree. I guess I should have prefaced everything with the fact that I am an atheist -- that does not mean I do not have a belief system, it means that I do not have a deity.

Part of my aversion to the idea of deities is the confusing nature of it, it seems rather circular. Another reason (there are more) is that I like Chaos Theory which proposes that even the tiniest change in circumstance can have a great outcome down the line. Ex: A man is getting ready for work one morning, he is very rigid and is always very regimented. He cuts himself shaving, which is something that surprises him and gets him off schedule because he has to take a few seconds to blot it. This bothers him and he fumbles with his keys as he locks his front door, costing even a few more seconds. He begins walking toward the subway and realizes the tissue is still on his face from blotting the cut, he stops and picks it off. These miniscule deviations from his regiment then cause him to miss the train and he must catch the next one (which is only 3 minutes behind). When he exits the subway station into Manhattan he walks toward his office at the World Trade Center, the day is 9/11/2001. He sees the first plane hit and instinctively turns around, away from the disaster. Would he have been in the tower within those three minutes? Probably. Would he have gotten out? At that point probably. The outcome is still very different than if he had gotten that first train.
 
^^^


I know taxigirl... and I don't have an answer.

I guess that we will have to wait until we leave this mortal body, so I don't know what to say apart from that taxigirl.
 
God can see the future so he would have to be outside of time. I see it like everything is a big picture in a frame and God is looking at it and can see the entire thing, while we are just a speck in one corner and all we can see is what is right near us and not the entire big picture God is looking at.
 
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Foreknowlege =/= Predestination, just as
Knowlege =/= Force.
 
Goshin said:
Foreknowlege =/= Predestination, just as
Knowlege =/= Force.
Click to expand...

But God is not just an observer, he is also a participant.

The great flood, Jesus, miracles, etc.

Having the foreknowledge and then acting on them: What would you call that?
 
Joni said:
Full disclaimer. I'm an atheist but I do like to think about these issues and I am not trying to bait anyone.

From a scriptural point of view, is the Christian God inside or outside of time? In other words, is he moving along time with us, not knowing if Adam will eat the apple? Or did he set up the Garden of Eden, knowing already that the apple would be consumed?

Are we like a DVD to Him which he keeps on his shelf to watch at his pleasure or is his time moving alongside our own?

I assume he did not know Adam would eat the apple or how his bet with Satan on Job would turn out. That's was a sucker's bet if he did know!

I'd like to know how religious people view this question.

Does omnipotence or omniscience mean that He already knows what we are going to do because he can be at any point in time at will? How does free will fit in with this concept?

If He is outside of time, that would argue for predestination, I suppose?

An inquiring mind, wants to know.

Joni
Click to expand...

Time is our construct and how we perceive our world: some people don't have a natural sense of a 'passing of time' - might be hard to imagine being without it but time-perception is controlled by a part of the brain like all other senses: if it doesn't develop right or if it's damaged - it won't "keep track of time" like we do.

Thus: I don't imagine that a god, if there is one, would abide by a purely human-perception . . . animals don't abide by our human-perception.

And time is a different subject than 'day-night awareness' or a 'day-night biological schedule' - the human body can adjust to differences in day/night exposure: but your sense of time passage is affected by things other than the sun being 'there'
 
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Here is how I see Adam and Eve, with regards to Free Will:

God tells them to obey him, and gives them free will. Meaning that they now have to choose 1 of 2 actions: Obey or Disobey.

Humans are imperfect, because the only perfect being is God himself, and it is explicit in the bible that there can only be one true God. Thus, being imperfect we, as humans, had to disobey. Think of it as you were given a test everyday, and you're expected to achieve 100% each and every time. No matter what test it is, there will always be human error.

God, of course being omniscient, is fully aware that Humans are not perfect, and therefore knew that they will fail eventually. The fact that he gave them free will, and the fact that humans will fail eventually (meaning that they will always choose to disobey given time), means that there was always only 1 choice that was possible to begin with. To obey God's command, 100% of the time, was impossible for humans. Since the choice was always to disobey, 1 choice only, free will then becomes just an illusion.


EDIT: In order for God to be able to have Omniscience and give free will to everyone, he has to be outside of time, and therefore outside physically, for that to be possible. In other words, he cannot perform miracles or interact with anything that exists physically.
 
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Joni said:
Full disclaimer. I'm an atheist but I do like to think about these issues and I am not trying to bait anyone.

From a scriptural point of view, is the Christian God inside or outside of time? In other words, is he moving along time with us, not knowing if Adam will eat the apple? Or did he set up the Garden of Eden, knowing already that the apple would be consumed?

Are we like a DVD to Him which he keeps on his shelf to watch at his pleasure or is his time moving alongside our own?

I assume he did not know Adam would eat the apple or how his bet with Satan on Job would turn out. That's was a sucker's bet if he did know!

I'd like to know how religious people view this question.

Does omnipotence or omniscience mean that He already knows what we are going to do because he can be at any point in time at will? How does free will fit in with this concept?

If He is outside of time, that would argue for predestination, I suppose?

An inquiring mind, wants to know.

Joni
Click to expand...

I'd think it would be a bit like Slaughter House 5. Perhaps he's just unstuck in time.
 
I think there is probably insufficient data to determine if God is "inside" time.
 
Joni said:
Full disclaimer. I'm an atheist but I do like to think about these issues and I am not trying to bait anyone.

From a scriptural point of view, is the Christian God inside or outside of time? In other words, is he moving along time with us, not knowing if Adam will eat the apple? Or did he set up the Garden of Eden, knowing already that the apple would be consumed?

Are we like a DVD to Him which he keeps on his shelf to watch at his pleasure or is his time moving alongside our own?

I assume he did not know Adam would eat the apple or how his bet with Satan on Job would turn out. That's was a sucker's bet if he did know!

I'd like to know how religious people view this question.

Does omnipotence or omniscience mean that He already knows what we are going to do because he can be at any point in time at will? How does free will fit in with this concept?

If He is outside of time, that would argue for predestination, I suppose?

An inquiring mind, wants to know.

Joni
Click to expand...
Free will only describes room for maneuver. Latitude. Absolute free will would necessitate us being all powerful.
 
taxigirl said:
Your questions brings up some very interesting ideas for me. I guess the concept of free will would imply that a christian god did not know what Adam would do.

If he is outside of time then wouldn't the free will concept be thrown out the door? If everything is predestined we do not have a choice, no matter what we do..... I don't know how to explain what I am thinking other than to reference Alanis Morissette's song Ironic. Predestination also throws my fav., Chaos theory out the window and that is based in mathematics.
Click to expand...

A deterministic universe (which I assume what you mean by "predestination") does not contradict Chaos Theory, in fact, it's at the base of Chaos theory.
 
Goshin said:
Foreknowlege =/= Predestination, just as
Knowlege =/= Force.
Click to expand...


If there's no "predestination" then there's no foreknowledge. If there's a chance that the ball might or might not fall, then saying that "I know the ball will fall" is just a guess, not a "foreknowledge".
 
nonpareil said:
If there's no "predestination" then there's no foreknowledge. If there's a chance that the ball might or might not fall, then saying that "I know the ball will fall" is just a guess, not a "foreknowledge".
Click to expand...

Limited beings, like humans, find it extremely difficult to comprehend the Absolute. That in a way, being Omni-/etc is self-limiting.

If the Omni allows a million people the choice of jumping to A or B, the fact that the Omni already know you'll chose B in no way negates the fact, that that was YOUR choice. The Omni foreknew, but did not foreordain it.


We have a measure of free will.
 
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