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Is God inside of time?

NoC_T said:
What I mean is that the term 'free will' invites the definition that we're at will to dictate any outcome. But that needn't be the case for it to operate.

I liken free will to electrical cable. The coloured wires representing possible courses to a destination. The outer covering being limitation. The destination as foregone, not illustrative of the means by which we arrive there. Only that we will.

You wouldn't equate your inability to jump over Mount Everest, as proof of there being no free will. Only that your choices, whilst numerous, are defined by limitation. Hence lack of omnipotence not invalidating the capacity to choose.

You have the capacity to make choices, but not to reorder the universe.
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I see.

That's not quite how I described the situation though, with my Adam and Eve scenario. I'll use a different analogy:

Let's say that I have an animal, and we'll call him Bobo. Bobo is not an aquatic creature, he's reptilian in nature, and moves slow like a sloth.

Judging by what I know of Bobo, I would guess that Bobo is not able to swim, and that if I were to drop him into a lake, he would drown. In fact, I'm quite certain of it. 100% certain Bobo will drown.

Now Bobo, as a sentient being, he's able to choose to do things and act upon them. Meaning he has free will. However, If I were to drop him in the middle of a lake, what choices would Bobo have? He can either swim or drown. However, we've already determined that Bobo would be unable to swim, and the two choices presented is misleading because in fact, drowning was the only choice that was actually possible. Just like how jumping over Mt. Everest shouldn't be counted as a possible choice.

The fact that Bobo cannot choose to swim, leads him with the only choice, which strips him of his free will. Essentially, that is the situation that God placed on Adam and Even. It was impossible to obey God 100% because humans are by definition imperfect. The one and only perfect being is God. Therefore, the only choice that was possible for Adam and Eve was to disobey. Having only the one choice, means that there is no free will. The other choices being impossible should not be considered as choices.
 
ChuckBerry said:
God did not create the circumstances that individuals are in to force them to one particular choice or another. To say that God's omniscience denies free will would seem to argue that God purposely set up the Universe and chose the winners and losers ahead of time. That, indeed, would be beastly.
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Perhaps not our current situations, but surely he created Adam and Eve's circumstances? He was the one who put them in Eden, who put the Tree there, and the Snake as well. Certainly Adam and Eve did not have a choice in the matter with regard to those three things?

People of identical life circumstances can choose to do evil or good. This is evidence that externalities are not the real reason for good or evil deeds.

To me, the proof of free will being compatible with an omniscient God is that people are all made in God's image, i.e. our spiritual natures. Our bodies are different from each others, and we were all born in to different political and social circumstances. But our true heavenly essence, our spirits, are identical, and Paul says as much in Colossians 3:10-11 "put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him, a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all."

As such, we all have the same spiritual connection to God in the same measure, and only through our own choice to heed God's call or to ignore it do we condemn ourselves.
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I'm not sure I follow...how does this illustrate God's Omniscience?

We all start from the same framework, but because of Adam and Eve's original sin, we fall short of the perfection that God created in us. This is why Christ had to enter the world to take away that original sin, and through His saving grace, we can make a new choice for ourselves to follow him or ignore the Good News.
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Now this opens a can of worms...which I don't want to get into because it'll definitely distract from our current discourse.
 
Lightdemon said:
I have pondered this very question for years as well, and every time I come to the same conclusion, no matter what argument was being used: Both cannot exist in the same universe. The only way to reconcile God's Omniscience is to say that he cannot interfere with the physical world that we live in. Even if he interfere's slightly, because of his Omniscience, his small act can have huge repercussions, because he is able to see the exponential amounts consequences that follow it. He's guiding the future with just a little nudge.

I believe that is enough to say that free will has been violated.
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I think Goshin answered this well with "free will" as an absolute has never existed. Everything is so interconnected that we are said to be in a constant state of fluctuation and reacting. Like atoms bouncing off each other in an encased force field with only our will to make slight variations in the equation. I think God set the universe in motion knowing every single thing that would happen but only acted directly as the original cause with a few miracles here and there. Is He surprised by some minor choices that passed by, possibly or it could be as Joni said "turtles all the way down"?

In the Adam and Eve experiment this is a possible scenario. Humans had evolved to a point of conscious, self awareness that the creator pulled two people aside and placed them in an earthly paradise with eternal ramifications. He wondered if given this choice to live forever and show appreciation for this new provision would they allow Him to have only ONE thing? They obviously didn't know how yet to love life, more than anything. Because "our life" is basically what God is too us. Humans were cast out to evolve further, until we individually learn to love. Did He know their choice? Probably not in this scenario, where it's what's called a deciding point, that could've led to several possible futures. Though He probably did know what both futures held.

As far as trying to wrap your mind around what God is or how He is limited, impossbru. There is nothing you can think of, any rule or law that He cannot break and still leave everything the same. God is the impossible itself, cannot possibly exist, be infinite, eternal, omniscient or do what has been done and YET.

ps. Reminds me of a joke "Want to make God laugh? Tell Him about your plans."
 
grip said:
I think Goshin answered this well with "free will" as an absolute has never existed. Everything is so interconnected that we are said to be in a constant state of fluctuation and reacting. Like atoms bouncing off each other in an encased force field with only our will to make slight variations in the equation. I think God set the universe in motion knowing every single thing that would happen but only acted directly as the original cause with a few miracles here and there. Is He surprised by some minor choices that passed by, possibly or it could be as Joni said "turtles all the way down"?
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Certainly, I agree. There are things that will happen despite our individual choices. Such as the sun blowing up billions of years from now. Or that fossil based fuel will eventually be gone. Or that the orbit of the Earth will remain on it's trajectory despite me choosing to eat a PB&J for breakfast.

I get that.

What I'm saying is that if God created our situation, that he was the one who handed us all of our scenarios, how can we have free will if it was what he intended? For instance, let's say god is piecing together a jigsaw puzzle. This puzzle is special, in that each puzzle piece rotates it's shape and so the socket and the interlocking sides keep changing (demonstrating free will). God's Omniscience allows him to predict each pieces' future shape, so that he will know exactly which piece he will need to move forward in completing this jigsaw puzzle.

The fact that the piece is able to choose it's shape does not matter because God has chosen the situation and place you will be in. (via Divine Plan). Each and everyone is a puzzle piece that God personally placed in his masterpiece, of what was intended for human existence, our purpose in life. A lot of Christians use the expression when they fail to attain something that they want, "God had something different planned for me." God's plan pretty much undermines the notion of free will.

In the Adam and Eve experiment this is a possible scenario. Humans had evolved to a point of conscious, self awareness that the creator pulled two people aside and placed them in an earthly paradise with eternal ramifications. He wondered if given this choice to live forever and show appreciation for this new provision would they allow Him to have only ONE thing? They obviously didn't know how yet to love life, more than anything. Because "our life" is basically what God is too us. Humans were cast out to evolve further, until we individually learn to love. Did He know their choice? Probably not in this scenario, where it's what's called a deciding point, that could've led to several possible futures. Though He probably did know what both futures held.
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God being Omniscient, must know what Adam and Eve are thinking at all times. If he didn't, we can't say he is Omniscient...

ps. Reminds me of a joke "Want to make God laugh? Tell Him about your plans."
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A good one that I've heard goes like this:

An atheist tries to disprove God, then God says, "Alright, show me."
 
Lightdemon said:
Certainly, I agree. There are things that will happen despite our individual choices. Such as the sun blowing up billions of years from now. Or that fossil based fuel will eventually be gone. Or that the orbit of the Earth will remain on it's trajectory despite me choosing to eat a PB&J for breakfast.

I get that.

What I'm saying is that if God created our situation, that he was the one who handed us all of our scenarios, how can we have free will if it was what he intended? For instance, let's say god is piecing together a jigsaw puzzle. This puzzle is special, in that each puzzle piece rotates it's shape and so the socket and the interlocking sides keep changing (demonstrating free will). God's Omniscience allows him to predict each pieces' future shape, so that he will know exactly which piece he will need to move forward in completing this jigsaw puzzle.

The fact that the piece is able to choose it's shape does not matter because God has chosen the situation and place you will be in. (via Divine Plan). Each and everyone is a puzzle piece that God personally placed in his masterpiece, of what was intended for human existence, our purpose in life. A lot of Christians use the expression when they fail to attain something that they want, "God had something different planned for me." God's plan pretty much undermines the notion of free will.



God being Omniscient, must know what Adam and Eve are thinking at all times. If he didn't, we can't say he is Omniscient...



A good one that I've heard goes like this:

An atheist tries to disprove God, then God says, "Alright, show me."
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You're still addressing absolute "free will", which we've conceded doesn't exist. How does God offering, differing scenarios and knowing what our choices will be make Him directly responsible for them? Maybe the notion of "free will", exists for us but it's not a reality for God, who can know? Jesus knew who was going to betray Him but if he knew He had to die on the cross, then why did he ask his Father to remove the cup from before him? If it were not possible, why go through the effort? Remember he said, "For you Father all things are possible." And why did God give Moses the Ten Commandments if He knew nobody could live by them completely? What's the point in making a vain effort for an omniscient and omnipotent being?

There is a part of us that makes up our personality, that is independent from Gods personality. The body and spirit together make up a soul that becomes unique through genetics, circumstances and living different experiences. The spirit is the conscious life force that comes from God's internal essence of existence, while the material used to make the body comes from a transient energy that is extended from God's mind. Now there is one body and one spirit but many souls and we all make up the puzzle that is life and are an important part of God. In the end God will reveal He has always been the center of our existence and that we're an extension of His mind with Him living vicariously through us. And maybe there is no God apart from us but rather God is a universe and people and we're are all part of the Godhead with Jesus being the first and prime individual. This is just stuff I made up but it could all be true for an impossible being. If your mind is caught in a loop, then let go of the boundaries that enclose your thoughts with limitations, then you'll see what can't be seen. Or you'll end up the fruitloop factory,,, lol.
 
nonpareil said:
A deterministic universe (which I assume what you mean by "predestination") does not contradict Chaos Theory, in fact, it's at the base of Chaos theory.
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From what I have read about physics is that only the probability of an outcome can be predicted. This has to do with working at sub-atomic levels vs. atomic levels. So only the probability can be determined, but never the exact outcome for anything. Which means there is randomness. If things experience random outcomes rather than set outcomes there is no deterministic universe, it would be chaotic.

This also implies free will can have an effect on outcome. If there is randomness then how could god know the outcome? If something is truly random it means that the outcome cannot be known until it takes place.
 
grip said:
You're still addressing absolute "free will", which we've conceded doesn't exist. How does God offering, differing scenarios and knowing what our choices will be make Him directly responsible for them?
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With regards to Adam and Eve, God is directly responsible for Adam and Eve's failure to comply with his command. In one of my above posts I describe an animal named Bobo, and is an analogy for Adam and Eve's situation. Essentially, God is throwing them into the lake and telling them to swim, knowing full well that they cannot. The fact that He threw them there is why God is responsible.

Maybe the notion of "free will", exists for us but it's not a reality for God, who can know? Jesus knew who was going to betray Him but if he knew He had to die on the cross, then why did he ask his Father to remove the cup from before him? If it were not possible, why go through the effort? Remember he said, "For you Father all things are possible." And why did God give Moses the Ten Commandments if He knew nobody could live by them completely? What's the point in making a vain effort for an omniscient and omnipotent being?
Click to expand...

I always felt that God did these things to showcase free will, as in giving people a chance to succeed or do well or be good, as well as do evil, be bad, and do ill. But again, He always knew the answers before they happen, and yet he sets up these tests anyway. As if to see us fail. Thinking about it is quite vexing to say the least.

There is a part of us that makes up our personality, that is independent from Gods personality. The body and spirit together make up a soul that becomes unique through genetics, circumstances and living different experiences. The spirit is the conscious life force that comes from God's internal essence of existence, while the material used to make the body comes from a transient energy that is extended from God's mind. Now there is one body and one spirit but many souls and we all make up the puzzle that is life and are an important part of God. In the end God will reveal He has always been the center of our existence and that we're an extension of His mind with Him living vicariously through us. And maybe there is no God apart from us but rather God is a universe and people and we're are all part of the Godhead with Jesus being the first and prime individual. This is just stuff I made up but it could all be true for an impossible being. If your mind is caught in a loop, then let go of the boundaries that enclose your thoughts with limitations, then you'll see what can't be seen. Or you'll end up the fruitloop factory,,, lol.
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Fruitloops is a good way of putting it lol
 
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Lightdemon said:
I see.

That's not quite how I described the situation though, with my Adam and Eve scenario. I'll use a different analogy:

Let's say that I have an animal, and we'll call him Bobo. Bobo is not an aquatic creature, he's reptilian in nature, and moves slow like a sloth.

Judging by what I know of Bobo, I would guess that Bobo is not able to swim, and that if I were to drop him into a lake, he would drown. In fact, I'm quite certain of it. 100% certain Bobo will drown.

Now Bobo, as a sentient being, he's able to choose to do things and act upon them. Meaning he has free will. However, If I were to drop him in the middle of a lake, what choices would Bobo have? He can either swim or drown. However, we've already determined that Bobo would be unable to swim, and the two choices presented is misleading because in fact, drowning was the only choice that was actually possible. Just like how jumping over Mt. Everest shouldn't be counted as a possible choice.

The fact that Bobo cannot choose to swim, leads him with the only choice, which strips him of his free will. Essentially, that is the situation that God placed on Adam and Even. It was impossible to obey God 100% because humans are by definition imperfect. The one and only perfect being is God. Therefore, the only choice that was possible for Adam and Eve was to disobey. Having only the one choice, means that there is no free will. The other choices being impossible should not be considered as choices.
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You still mistake lack of omnipotence for lack of choice.

As per your analogy, Bobo's inability to determine and counteract the 'choices' of others, does not undermine his own capacity to choose. Only the extent to which those choices may be applied. Which is why limitation is relevant.

Your ability to choose does not preclude that ability in others. They may 'choose' to impose their own wills upon you.

You equate free will with godhood.
 
To put it another way, you may fight a weaker person and beat them, only to be beaten by someone stronger.

You imposed your will on another, only to have another will imposed upon you.

You exercised your will nonetheless.

Your lack of ability to impose it on all mothers made it no less an act of will.

There is limitation.
 
Lightdemon said:
With regards to Adam and Eve, God is directly responsible for Adam and Eve's failure to comply with his command. In one of my above posts I describe an animal named Bobo, and is an analogy for Adam and Eve's situation. Essentially, God is throwing them into the lake and telling them to swim, knowing full well that they cannot. The fact that He threw them there is why God is responsible.
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God is responsible ultimately for all things but we still don't know for sure how much detail is foreknown or how many divergent points there are. There may be a near infinite amount of possibilities that He knows the outcome of each after certain decisions are made. And it may be important in our development for the simulation and efforts of our decision making to transpire. And many micro decisions may have little impact on the macro development of the world. I think Adam or Eve could have chosen differently and at each point God would've known the outcome afterwards but I doubt He set up an experiment of folly for kicks.

Lightdemon said:
I always felt that God did these things to showcase free will, as in giving people a chance to succeed or do well or be good, as well as do evil, be bad, and do ill. But again, He always knew the answers before they happen, and yet he sets up these tests anyway. As if to see us fail. Thinking about it is quite vexing to say the least.
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Lets say God knew we would fail and choose poorly in our youth but also knew as we grew wiser with time we would learn not to choose poorly. That seems to give the choices He knows ahead of time more validity as serving a good purpose. You can't be certain of what's good, until you've experienced the other choice.

Lightdemon said:
Fruitloops is a good way of putting it lol
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I will say this life is hard and seems fruitless ultimately if our existence ends up in the dirt.

Though I enjoyed the ride for now and still believe there's more.
 
NoC_T said:
You still mistake lack of omnipotence for lack of choice.

As per your analogy, Bobo's inability to determine and counteract the 'choices' of others, does not undermine his own capacity to choose. Only the extent to which those choices may be applied. Which is why limitation is relevant.

Your ability to choose does not preclude that ability in others. They may 'choose' to impose their own wills upon you.

You equate free will with godhood.
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Goodhood comes into play because God is part of the equation. God is imposing His will onto everyone. He himself is the limitation because of Omniscience. Seeing things before they happen makes all events linear. Every subsequent cause or effect is known to God making it linear. Linear as in there are no breaks or branching out or any kind of deviation from the line of events. If you cannot deviate from these line of events, then there are no other choices to be had.

As I said before, Omniscience is why free will cannot exist, if God is allowed to interfere. The equation can be balanced only if God either does not have Omniscience, or that He does not interfere with Human lives.
 
grip said:
God is responsible ultimately for all things but we still don't know for sure how much detail is foreknown or how many divergent points there are. There may be a near infinite amount of possibilities that He knows the outcome of each after certain decisions are made. And it may be important in our development for the simulation and efforts of our decision making to transpire. And many micro decisions may have little impact on the macro development of the world. I think Adam or Eve could have chosen differently and at each point God would've known the outcome afterwards but I doubt He set up an experiment of folly for kicks.
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Hmmm, so your're saying that the line of events is not linear, that it DOES branch out into infinite possibilities, and God is able to see all of those possibilities because of Omniscience. This part makes sense. However, the actual events that do occur are linear, and I believe God is able to see that as well, because of Omniscience.

So imagine a tree, with many branches; boughs and twigs and every branch of every length, size, and shape. However complicated it is, God knows how each one is connected to the other. God has a snail and a marker. If God puts down the snail, it will leave behind a trail of slime as it moves up the tree. Because of Omniscience He is able to use his marker and trace the snails trail before he sets the snail to it. The fact that God is able to trace it with his marker, determines the snails journey, regardless of how many infinite possible choices the snail COULD have made. Those choices were never available to the snail, so in fact he COULDN'T have made any other choice. The snail had to follow the marker's trail.


Lets say God knew we would fail and choose poorly in our youth but also knew as we grew wiser with time we would learn not to choose poorly. That seems to give the choices He knows ahead of time more validity as serving a good purpose. You can't be certain of what's good, until you've experienced the other choice.
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And this is a big reason why I am Agnostic; that I just don't know, or rather unable to know, what God is thinking about. His mood or his goals or his perception is unknowable. The only thing I do know is how we define God, because we are in fact the ones doing the defining. On this, we are able to debate, but when it comes to God's aspirations....I cannot debate that as there really is no basis for argument.

I will say this life is hard and seems fruitless ultimately if our existence ends up in the dirt.

Though I enjoyed the ride for now and still believe there's more.
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I have no problems with that, as long as I can enjoy the ride as well.
 
Lightdemon said:
Goodhood comes into play because God is part of the equation. God is imposing His will onto everyone. He himself is the limitation because of Omniscience. Seeing things before they happen makes all events linear. Every subsequent cause or effect is known to God making it linear. Linear as in there are no breaks or branching out or any kind of deviation from the line of events. If you cannot deviate from these line of events, then there are no other choices to be had.

As I said before, Omniscience is why free will cannot exist, if God is allowed to interfere. The equation can be balanced only if God either does not have Omniscience, or that He does not interfere with Human lives.
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Or if there is room for maeuver within limitations, which is my point.

God is God. We are not.

Free will means only options, not absolute self determination.
 
Lightdemon said:
Hmmm, so your're saying that the line of events is not linear, that it DOES branch out into infinite possibilities, and God is able to see all of those possibilities because of Omniscience. This part makes sense. However, the actual events that do occur are linear, and I believe God is able to see that as well, because of Omniscience.

So imagine a tree, with many branches; boughs and twigs and every branch of every length, size, and shape. However complicated it is, God knows how each one is connected to the other. God has a snail and a marker. If God puts down the snail, it will leave behind a trail of slime as it moves up the tree. Because of Omniscience He is able to use his marker and trace the snails trail before he sets the snail to it. The fact that God is able to trace it with his marker, determines the snails journey, regardless of how many infinite possible choices the snail COULD have made. Those choices were never available to the snail, so in fact he COULDN'T have made any other choice. The snail had to follow the marker's trail.
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God may know the end of each possibility but that doesn't mean He knows ahead before the exact determination is made, which future will be chosen. You're saying that because God made the maze, chose the start and knows the end that no other variation was possible, therefore choice is an illusion. That's provided that your snail trail is based on the assumption that there's not some flexibility, within the system. There may be only a hand full of bottleneck decision points that make the big changes and probably, only He knows which. He possibly has also predetermined a certain end that will come about even though there's a multitude of minor variations, because He's omniflexible.

You know we're born with an awful lot of predetermined traits and characteristics. Circumstances and genetics are factors out of our control, completely limiting our free will, extensively. The Alpha and Omega of our existence, our beginning and ending are the only certainties that will not change with free will or predetermination. We will end and begin but what happens in between for us is always a mystery. There are too many unknown variables and possibilities for you or I to calculate into a catchall conclusion about what God knows.

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
But God is playing all their parts?

Lightdemon said:
And this is a big reason why I am Agnostic; that I just don't know, or rather unable to know, what God is thinking about. His mood or his goals or his perception is unknowable. The only thing I do know is how we define God, because we are in fact the ones doing the defining. On this, we are able to debate, but when it comes to God's aspirations....I cannot debate that as there really is no basis for argument.

I have no problems with that, as long as I can enjoy the ride as well.
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I'm also agnostic. I've read most major religions, ancient history, philosophers and a little physics because I'm curious why humans and what's God. It's a pleasure to have this discussion with someone who has no preconceived animus.
 
freewill



....
 
Lightdemon said:
I see.

That's not quite how I described the situation though, with my Adam and Eve scenario. I'll use a different analogy:

Let's say that I have an animal, and we'll call him Bobo. Bobo is not an aquatic creature, he's reptilian in nature, and moves slow like a sloth.

Judging by what I know of Bobo, I would guess that Bobo is not able to swim, and that if I were to drop him into a lake, he would drown. In fact, I'm quite certain of it. 100% certain Bobo will drown.

Now Bobo, as a sentient being, he's able to choose to do things and act upon them. Meaning he has free will. However, If I were to drop him in the middle of a lake, what choices would Bobo have? He can either swim or drown. However, we've already determined that Bobo would be unable to swim, and the two choices presented is misleading because in fact, drowning was the only choice that was actually possible. Just like how jumping over Mt. Everest shouldn't be counted as a possible choice.

The fact that Bobo cannot choose to swim, leads him with the only choice, which strips him of his free will. Essentially, that is the situation that God placed on Adam and Even. It was impossible to obey God 100% because humans are by definition imperfect. The one and only perfect being is God. Therefore, the only choice that was possible for Adam and Eve was to disobey. Having only the one choice, means that there is no free will. The other choices being impossible should not be considered as choices.
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Explain Jesus.
 
Free will is a topic all on its own. Theists have a much easier time advocating free will because, generally, they believe in dualism. There is a soul outside of the structure of our bodies which will be everlasting. That soul cannot be explained scientifically. If you do not accept dualism, and think that we are the neurons, and other various component parts of our body, particularly our brain, it becomes hard to argue for free will.

I started this thread and mentioned free will in the OP merely to point out one of the possible ramifications of a God who is "outside of time" in the sense that He has already seen what will be. I honestly do not know what, for example, the Catholic church and the various mainstream denominations have to say on this subject. I do not recall the topic ever being raised in the conservative Church of Christ I attended in my youth.

From a scriptural point of view, we have various stories like the apple and God's bet with Satan which seem to suggest God is running along right with us in our time. More general verses describing God can be used to say that he was before before and is outside of outside.

Just curious what people believed. :)
 
NoC_T said:
Or if there is room for maeuver within limitations, which is my point.

God is God. We are not.
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Or we could merely just be thoughts in the mind of God, not required to move in any certain direction, except just that we move. There's a short quote that I am fond of: "All roads lead to God". I tend to think that is the case, and it would fit in with evolution as a means to arrive there.
 
Lightdemon said:
Jesus is God, not human.

That was easy. :roll:
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You beat me too it. :D

I think Jesus was God in human form but still God somehow.

Joni said:
Free will is a topic all on its own. Theists have a much easier time advocating free will because, generally, they believe in dualism. There is a soul outside of the structure of our bodies which will be everlasting. That soul cannot be explained scientifically. If you do not accept dualism, and think that we are the neurons, and other various component parts of our body, particularly our brain, it becomes hard to argue for free will.

I started this thread and mentioned free will in the OP merely to point out one of the possible ramifications of a God who is "outside of time" in the sense that He has already seen what will be. I honestly do not know what, for example, the Catholic church and the various mainstream denominations have to say on this subject. I do not recall the topic ever being raised in the conservative Church of Christ I attended in my youth.

From a scriptural point of view, we have various stories like the apple and God's bet with Satan which seem to suggest God is running along right with us in our time. More general verses describing God can be used to say that he was before before and is outside of outside.

Just curious what people believed. :)
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I think God lives outside time and runs along with it. We have a hard time grasping a being made of energy that is everywhere, makes up everything and is even beyond what's known.

I also believe there is a dimension interwoven within the observable one that is beyond our senses or current capacity to grasp. Our 5 senses tell us what the surrounding environment has to say to our brains (neural network) but physics tells us there are many layers of particles and energy that aren't accessible to our senses, except with certain equipment.
 
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Goshin said:
Limited beings, like humans, find it extremely difficult to comprehend the Absolute. That in a way, being Omni-/etc is self-limiting.

If the Omni allows a million people the choice of jumping to A or B, the fact that the Omni already know you'll chose B in no way negates the fact, that that was YOUR choice. The Omni foreknew, but did not foreordain it.


We have a measure of free will.
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He may or may not preordain the choice, but if he "knew" that those people will make the jump then the jump was "predestined", otherwise it can't be known beforehand but was simply a guess.

If we have freewill then God can't know beforehand with absolute certainty what we choose before we choose them, if he knows what we will choose, then the choice was already predetermined before the action to choose will take place.
 
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grip said:
God may know the end of each possibility but that doesn't mean He knows ahead before the exact determination is made, which future will be chosen. You're saying that because God made the maze, chose the start and knows the end that no other variation was possible, therefore choice is an illusion. That's provided that your snail trail is based on the assumption that there's not some flexibility, within the system. There may be only a hand full of bottleneck decision points that make the big changes and probably, only He knows which. He possibly has also predetermined a certain end that will come about even though there's a multitude of minor variations, because He's omniflexible.
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Yes, that's what I'm saying, that there is no flexibility, at all. If what I do tomorrow is already known to God, how is it possible for me to choose what to do. The only option is to do what God knows what I will do. Only 1 option is available to me. No flexibility. He'll know I will wear the black pants, with the leather belt, and the blue flannel. He'll know I'll have PB&J and cereal for breakfast, and He'll know I'll sneeze when it's 1:34pm. He knows all things important and mundane. Everything. He has to, by definition. If He sees the next day's events before I get a chance to live them out, I have no choice but to do what He already seen in advance. If I happen to do something that God did not foresee, then he is not Omniscient.

You know we're born with an awful lot of predetermined traits and characteristics. Circumstances and genetics are factors out of our control, completely limiting our free will, extensively. The Alpha and Omega of our existence, our beginning and ending are the only certainties that will not change with free will or predetermination. We will end and begin but what happens in between for us is always a mystery. There are too many unknown variables and possibilities for you or I to calculate into a catchall conclusion about what God knows.

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
But God is playing all their parts?
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No, no, no. I'm not speaking of absolute free will. Things that are not in our control are not relevant to the free will we are discussing. What I choose to be when I grow up, or how I want to cut my hair, or whether to shave today, or whether I should wear underpants or go commando :) I'm speaking of things that we are able to do within our capabilities.

I'm also agnostic. I've read most major religions, ancient history, philosophers and a little physics because I'm curious why humans and what's God. It's a pleasure to have this discussion with someone who has no preconceived animus.
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The feelings mutual, and it's quite refreshing to tell the truth. Let's just hope that Cephus will stay out of our conversation, because we both know how that'll end up. :argue

I've also read many religions, and the eastern ones fascinate me the most, particularly Taoism and Zen Buddhism.
 
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lizzie said:
Or we could merely just be thoughts in the mind of God, not required to move in any certain direction, except just that we move. There's a short quote that I am fond of: "All roads lead to God". I tend to think that is the case, and it would fit in with evolution as a means to arrive there.
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I like that.

I tend not to think so, for He'd only be looking to contradict himself. There are no contradictions.
 
Lightdemon said:
Jesus is God, not human.

That was easy. :roll:
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That would defeat the object, and dying for our sins could mean nothing.

Jesus was human.
 
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