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Adam and Eve

reefedjib said:
If one's soul is genderless and if one acknowledges reincarnation (John the Baptist was Elijah) and karmic law (you reap what you sow), then we have each been reincarnated as both a man and a woman. Furthermore, our sexual identity has been both gay and straight. How does Adam and Eve fit within this personal identity?
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WHA?!?!

If we accept your premises, then we have to assume that there are a given number of souls out there for reincarnation to occur. Therefore every soul has to have a "first life". So on the premise that Adam and Eve were the first two beings then the first two souls to become embodied got those bodies and then other souls lined up for the children. Eventually, Adam and Eve die and the souls go on to other new bodies, maybe of different genders and/or sexual orientations. What's so hard to concept about that?
 
maquiscat said:
WHA?!?!

If we accept your premises, then we have to assume that there are a given number of souls out there for reincarnation to occur.
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What requires this assumption? Cannot God create souls at a thought?

maquiscat said:
Therefore every soul has to have a "first life".
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Ok, let us assume this.

maquiscat said:
So on the premise that Adam and Eve were the first two beings then the first two souls to become embodied got those bodies and then other souls lined up for the children.
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Bad assumption. Adam and Eve are not physically manifested humans. They are the spiritual archetype for all humans. Since God is within each of us, and is genderless, she (I will use this pronoun to refer to God) needs to manifest gender and does so through Adam and Eve. Interestingly, I think we all share the same Adam and Eve and that that is related to the puzzle of how GOD IS ONE becomes the Many souls.
 
reefedjib said:
What requires this assumption? Cannot God create souls at a thought?
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Poorly worded on my part. What I was referring to is that there has to be more than a few. You've got to have at least one for every person currently alive.

Bad assumption. Adam and Eve are not physically manifested humans. They are the spiritual archetype for all humans. Since God is within each of us, and is genderless, she (I will use this pronoun to refer to God) needs to manifest gender and does so through Adam and Eve. Interestingly, I think we all share the same Adam and Eve and that that is related to the puzzle of how GOD IS ONE becomes the Many souls.
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How is my assumption that Adam and Eve are physically manifested humans any more or less a bad assumption than your assumption that they are/were spiritual archetypes? Neither assumption is readily provable.
 
maquiscat said:
Poorly worded on my part. What I was referring to is that there has to be more than a few. You've got to have at least one for every person currently alive.



How is my assumption that Adam and Eve are physically manifested humans any more or less a bad assumption than your assumption that they are/were spiritual archetypes? Neither assumption is readily provable.
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We are in the Religious Discussions forum. No proof needed as it is, or at least ought to be, understood that all statements made here about the ontology of creation is entirely speculative, holds no truth value, and is not expected to be demonstrable through objective means.
 
reefedjib said:
Ok, let me combine everything, and add a word to your statement:

The Garden of Eden is a metaphor for humans turning away from Divine ignorance and finding their way back to God
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We never left God in the first place. It's a matter of how much you endorse separation and forget who/what you really are.

People spend their whole lives praying, trying to find God, or trying to become more worthy again, when they are already connected in perpetuity. God cannot be the infinite if we are not part of it.

As you say, male and female are a false dichotomy - but so is everything else. You leave the garden when you forget that you're already in the garden.
 
flaxenmoon said:
It's the story (retold) of the God and The Goddess. Yin and Yang. However, for some reason, the male in this story is the good (albiet stupid and gullible) one. The woman becomes the temptress, immoral, who falls for the "snake" (metaphore much???)

That's what happens when men are in charge of what goes into, and what doesn't in the Bible. :2razz:
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Shut up and make me a sandwich. :cool:
 
Temporal said:
We never left God in the first place. It's a matter of how much you endorse separation and forget who/what you really are.

People spend their whole lives praying, trying to find God, or trying to become more worthy again, when they are already connected in perpetuity. God cannot be the infinite if we are not part of it.

As you say, male and female are a false dichotomy - but so is everything else. You leave the garden when you forget that you're already in the garden.
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Absolutely true, I think, that we are already intimately connected to God. However, I think that it is a matter of us realizing God and having faith, that will lead us back to the garden. That is why we must work off our karma.
 
reefedjib said:
Absolutely true, I think, that we are already intimately connected to God. However, I think that it is a matter of us realizing God and having faith, that will lead us back to the garden. That is why we must work off our karma.
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Karma has thousands of meanings. If you're alive then you're creating karma. My feeling is that karma is neutralized when you fully realize (and not just know) that there are no separate actions. It's all just the universe doing itself.
 
Temporal said:
Karma has thousands of meanings. If you're alive then you're creating karma. My feeling is that karma is neutralized when you fully realize (and not just know) that there are no separate actions. It's all just the universe doing itself.
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We totally agree, but I think we still need to work it off
 
reefedjib said:
We totally agree, but I think we still need to work it off
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I used to think that. Over the years, I've begin to think that maybe that's only partially true, and that our own emotional attachment is what keeps us in the grinding wheel, so to speak. Iow, if someone hypothetically owes karmic debt, and the person owed releases their own attachment, it might be that the debt is resolved. Make sense? I'm not claiming to know, it's just something that I've been chewing on over the years. :)
 
reefedjib said:
If one's soul is genderless and if one acknowledges reincarnation (John the Baptist was Elijah) and karmic law (you reap what you sow), then we have each been reincarnated as both a man and a woman. Furthermore, our sexual identity has been both gay and straight. How does Adam and Eve fit within this personal identity?
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Adam and Eve don't fit identity. Adam and Eve were created by God, male and female. With a soul. With no reincarnation possible. John the Baptist was not a reincarnation of Elijah. Johns ministry was similar to Elijah's and had Israel accepted her Messiah, Jesus Christ, then John would have been the fulfillment of that prophecy.

Quantrill
 
lizzie said:
I used to think that. Over the years, I've begin to think that maybe that's only partially true, and that our own emotional attachment is what keeps us in the grinding wheel, so to speak. Iow, if someone hypothetically owes karmic debt, and the person owed releases their own attachment, it might be that the debt is resolved. Make sense? I'm not claiming to know, it's just something that I've been chewing on over the years. :)
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Mmm, I don't agree with this. I think attachment and karmic debt are different. Both must be resolved.
 
Quantrill said:
John the Baptist was not a reincarnation of Elijah.
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That is one interpretation. Another is that Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist. Why is reincarnation so antithetical to your beliefs? Do you look beyond Christianity for spiritual inspiration? All spiritualities have a kernel of truth. Jesus said that if a man who is not one of us is driving out demons, do not interrupt him. Perhaps we can learn something from him.
 
reefedjib said:
If one's soul is genderless and if one acknowledges reincarnation (John the Baptist was Elijah) and karmic law (you reap what you sow), then we have each been reincarnated as both a man and a woman. Furthermore, our sexual identity has been both gay and straight. How does Adam and Eve fit within this personal identity?
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The don't. Show me a major religion and I'll show you myths.
 
reefedjib said:
We totally agree, but I think we still need to work it off
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Perhaps, and maybe we differ in semantics, but I would submit that we continue to presented lessons (opportunities for awareness) until we master them. If we don't see the opportunity (fail the lesson) it is presented again and again in different ways until we master (become aware) that specific lesson. When lesson is completed, we get another lesson.

Of course each moment in the current incarnation is a lesson, there are many to master. In this way I don't see it as "working off" karma but rather the repeated opportunity of becoming aware. What may take you only once to learn may take me many lifetimes. It usually does, I am slow learner given to self indulgence of pleasurable things. After many, many incarnations I am quite certain my progress and understanding was substantial and I am aware of it. Or can be when and if I want to be. This time around I seem to be on sabbatical and I'm enjoying the break.
 
reefedjib said:
That is one interpretation. Another is that Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist. Why is reincarnation so antithetical to your beliefs? Do you look beyond Christianity for spiritual inspiration? All spiritualities have a kernel of truth. Jesus said that if a man who is not one of us is driving out demons, do not interrupt him. Perhaps we can learn something from him.
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The Bible does not teach reincarnation. Those who read 'reincarnation' in this passage concerning John the Baptist are not Christians and do not know the Bible. The Bible is clear that is appointed unto man once to die, and then judgement. No reincarnation is taught. Heb.9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: "

Jesus Christ said that those who are not against us are for us. There is no teaching of reincarnation here.

Quantrill
 
Quantrill said:
The Bible does not teach reincarnation. Those who read 'reincarnation' in this passage concerning John the Baptist are not Christians and do not know the Bible. The Bible is clear that is appointed unto man once to die, and then judgement. No reincarnation is taught. Heb.9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: "

Jesus Christ said that those who are not against us are for us. There is no teaching of reincarnation here.

Quantrill
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It doesn't teach it, but it does reference it. Don't forget that the Bible has been altered in translation, sometimes by accident, and at other times purposely, by powerful religious figures in the Catholic church, and probably others as well.
 
lizzie said:
It doesn't teach it, but it does reference it. Don't forget that the Bible has been altered in translation, sometimes by accident, and at other times purposely, by powerful religious figures in the Catholic church, and probably others as well.
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There is no reference for reincarnation in the Bible. Any so called 'alteration' is known. And they are very very few. And they alter no doctrine of the Christian faith at all.

Quantrill
 
Quantrill said:
The Bible does not teach reincarnation. Those who read 'reincarnation' in this passage concerning John the Baptist are not Christians and do not know the Bible. The Bible is clear that is appointed unto man once to die, and then judgement. No reincarnation is taught. Heb.9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: "

Jesus Christ said that those who are not against us are for us. There is no teaching of reincarnation here.

Quantrill
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Reincarnation was a part of early Christian teaching, but was removed from the official bible by church authorities.

Resurrection and reincarnation
 
reefedjib said:
Reincarnation was a part of early Christian teaching, but was removed from the official bible by church authorities.

Resurrection and reincarnation
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Reincarnation was never part of early Christian teaching. It may have been part of the Gnostic teaching but that is not Christian. Nothing was removed from the Bible. The books in question were never recieved by the Church as inspired by God.

Quantrill
 
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Quantrill said:
The Bible does not teach reincarnation. Those who read 'reincarnation' in this passage concerning John the Baptist are not Christians and do not know the Bible. The Bible is clear that is appointed unto man once to die, and then judgement. No reincarnation is taught. Heb.9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: "

Jesus Christ said that those who are not against us are for us. There is no teaching of reincarnation here.

Quantrill
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"Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist." Matt 17:11-13

Elijah came, incarnated as John the baptist. Since Elijah ad been incarnated already hundreds of years earlier, this was a reincarnation. In the book of Luke 1:17 it says that John was born with theb'spirit and power' of Elijah.

When someone is born with the spirit of someone else who lived centuries earlier, we call that reincarnation. Reincarnation doesn't mean you are born with all the memories or personality traits of some past life, it just means you are born with the spirit of someone who has lived previously. That is exactly what the Bible teaches about John.

Furthermore, before you get too invested in how clear Hebrews 9:27 is about how many times people are destined to die, tell me, how many times was Lazerous destined to die?
 
Panache said:
"Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist." Matt 17:11-13

Elijah came, incarnated as John the baptist. Since Elijah ad been incarnated already hundreds of years earlier, this was a reincarnation. In the book of Luke 1:17 it says that John was born with theb'spirit and power' of Elijah.

When someone is born with the spirit of someone else who lived centuries earlier, we call that reincarnation. Reincarnation doesn't mean you are born with all the memories or personality traits of some past life, it just means you are born with the spirit of someone who has lived previously. That is exactly what the Bible teaches about John.

Furthermore, before you get too invested in how clear Hebrews 9:27 is about how many times people are destined to die, tell me, how many times was Lazerous destined to die?
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Luke 1:17, speaking of John the Baptist, " And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias,(Elijah) to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,..." Parnethesis mine.

Matt. 11:12-14 " And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will recieve it, (the kingdom) this is Elias, which was for to come. " Parnethesis mine.

Matt. 17:11-12 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatever they listed. "

John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah. The Holy Spirit used John as he used Elijah. This is not reincarnation. The prophecy was that Elijah would come first as the fore runner to the kingdom. Which kingdom Jesus offered. Had Israel accepted the kingdom and their Messiah, Johns ministry would have fulfilled that prophecy. But they didn't.

So, Elijah, must still come. The prophecy is yet unfulfilled. It could well be the person of Elijah, or another in the spirit and power of Elijah as John the Baptist was. That is not reincarnation.

As to Lazurus, he would have died again. But his was the result of a miraculous intervention of God. The same is true with Elijah. He didn't die. Unless, he does return and is one of the two witnesses that is killed in Revelation. The same is true with the Christians who are taken up at the rapture. They will never see death. Due to the miraculous intervention of God. But, the rule applies to all other instances. Man is appointed once to die and then judgement. And neither Lazurus or the rapture teaches any form of reincarnation.

Quantrill
 
Quantrill said:
Luke 1:17, speaking of John the Baptist, " And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias,(Elijah) to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,..." Parnethesis mine.

Matt. 11:12-14 " And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will recieve it, (the kingdom) this is Elias, which was for to come. " Parnethesis mine.

Matt. 17:11-12 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatever they listed. "

John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah. The Holy Spirit used John as he used Elijah. This is not reincarnation. The prophecy was that Elijah would come first as the fore runner to the kingdom. Which kingdom Jesus offered. Had Israel accepted the kingdom and their Messiah, Johns ministry would have fulfilled that prophecy. But they didn't.

So, Elijah, must still come. The prophecy is yet unfulfilled. It could well be the person of Elijah, or another in the spirit and power of Elijah as John the Baptist was. That is not reincarnation.

As to Lazurus, he would have died again. But his was the result of a miraculous intervention of God. The same is true with Elijah. He didn't die. Unless, he does return and is one of the two witnesses that is killed in Revelation. The same is true with the Christians who are taken up at the rapture. They will never see death. Due to the miraculous intervention of God. But, the rule applies to all other instances. Man is appointed once to die and then judgement. And neither Lazurus or the rapture teaches any form of reincarnation.

Quantrill
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What do you imagine reincarnation to be if not coming in the spirit and power of one who has already lived?
 
Panache said:
What do you imagine reincarnation to be if not coming in the spirit and power of one who has already lived?
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Elijah didn't cease being Elijah, in heaven with God. John the Baptist didn't become the person of Elijah. He came in the spirit and power of Elijah, which means the use of him by the Holy Spirit. Every Christian has the Holy Spirit. Yet we are individual persons. Yet one in Christ.

Quantrill
 
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