Isn't god supposed to be perfect?

Chaz · Feb 8, 2012

This is a question I have always wondered when thinking about any religions stories regardign their god. It is always said that god is a perfect being flawless, just, kind and whatever else the person who thinks of god that he/she would consider perfect. Yet in the stories found in texts such as the bible why is it god is always portrayed as angry and spiteful? He does not hesistate to inflict harm on others who disobey him, he smites cities and floods the world if he does not like where things are going and he crashes towns to the ground and confuses the languages of man because he did not like the fact they were united in one area. Yet at the same time people say the reason god does not cure the ailments of man (war, hunger, disease, etc) is because he does not want to interfere with us mortals whenever.

I recall one story I believe is of jewish origins; the story of job. In a nutshell god made a bet with satan that a man called job (who always prayed to him) would remain faithful to him regardless of the situation he was in (job at the time had a wonderfully comfortable life with a wife, kids, farm and a horde of animals) so in order to prove this job's wife and children were killed, his crops destroyed, his animals butchered and he was diseased with terrible conditions that cause great pain to him. Yeah, all this happened. Just to prove a point., to SATAN. Well in the end of the story we are relieved to find that after all this job was eventually cured when he proved his faith (after a LONG period of time in which he lost everything including his friends; who thought the reason for his ailments was because he did not worship god when he did or something like that) and yay! he got a brand new family, farm and life that was twice as good as his first!

Seriously? This is supposed to be a happy ending? God let this man suffer to prove a point in a petty bet as as show of pride and let innocent people suffer in order to do it; andwe are supposed to be happy because his new life was twice as good in the end?

I don't know about you guys but to me all of the examples I have listed seem to do nothing but prove god is not merciful, kind and just but rather mean, hateful, arrogant and spiteful and unjust (he let innocent people die and suffer to prove a point; how is that just?). So please someone explain to me how this god is meant to be portrayed as perfect? It seems to me that...

A: God is not perfect
B: God is perfect but the stories being written by man are not accurate to gods true nature.
C: God doesn't exist and the reason he is flawed is because the people who created the idea of him were also flawed.

If I missed soemthing I would love it if someone would let me know; because all I know as of yet is if the god people claim to be perfect and the god who allows all this harm to be inflicted are supposed to be the same, then the world has a seriously scary view of perfection and justice.

lizzie · Feb 9, 2012

Didja ever stop to think that maybe being angry is okay, according to the circumstances?

I think alot of people have this misguided idea that perfection means loving, kind, generous, and all the other sweet words one can come up with, but excludes negative connotations. Maybe perfection is actually balance, and is inclusive of traits that we usually associate with badness as well as goodness.

Enola · Feb 9, 2012

I've always wondered that too. But here at DP, I think I'm pretty set in what I believe so reading other people's takes gives me insights I never though of before. Lizzie's answer is something that never really crossed my mind until she said it.

So I'll keep an eye on this thread. Ya never know what will make a light bulb go off over your head.

Daktoria · Feb 9, 2012

Just to be clear, the Christian God is not the Jewish God. The Christian God is based on a new covenant of grace and forgiveness.

Especially considering how persecuted they've been, I never understood how Jews could live under divine masochism.

lizzie · Feb 9, 2012

Enola said:
I've always wondered that too. But here at DP, I think I'm pretty set in what I believe so reading other people's takes gives me insights I never though of before. Lizzie's answer is something that never really crossed my mind until she said it.

So I'll keep an eye on this thread. Ya never know what will make a light bulb go off over your head.

I just go where the spirit leads.

It doesn't mean I'm right, but I'm okay with being wrong.

Just make sure you don't follow me- just in case. :mrgreen:

OneMale · Feb 9, 2012

Daktoria said:
Just to be clear, the Christian God is not the Jewish God.

Dak, Jesus was of the Hebrew God. So your statement is inaccurate as the old testament is from the Torah and other books edited as usual by humanity's societal engineers of that period. Now matter how things change they operate the same way.

Misbelief · Feb 10, 2012

Daktoria said:
Just to be clear, the Christian God is not the Jewish God. The Christian God is based on a new covenant of grace and forgiveness.

Especially considering how persecuted they've been, I never understood how Jews could live under divine masochism.

Ignorant...

Temporal · Feb 10, 2012

God is perfect, and so are humans.

You were born with the ability to be angry - there's nothing wrong with it.

That God is something you have to prove yourself to, is a human concept meant to control the masses and give power to the middle men. Every time one of these middle men tries to tell me that I need to do X Y and Z to be loved or connected to God, I laugh in their faces. You don't have to do anything. You are perfect as you are, and God forgives all.

Now it's important for you to forgive yourself so you can get back to remembering what it is you're already part of.

obvious Child · Feb 10, 2012

If we define Perfect as "without flaws" then the Biblical concept of God doesn't make logical sense.

If we are to assume that the Biblical God exists outside of time, it therefore knew what would happen in such a creation before he created it as he exists at all points in time. Therefore, God would know that what he would create would be with flaws (yet created it anyways). Furthermore, the logical corollary that imperfection cannot come from perfection as perfection is without flaws (how can flaws come from the absence of flaws?), then God created an imperfect creation and therefore is imperfect himself.

But God itself is not bound by logic, rendering the application of logic to a being not bound by logic moot.

Rosie1 · Feb 10, 2012

Wow, Onemale, that's the shortest, clearest thing you've every posted. I actually comprehend what you said, and I agree. We were always taught that the Hebrew God and the Christian God were one and the same. God changed and became forgiving/benevolant. Because of that he sent Jesus. In actuality he came as Jesus. It's very confusing to take that all in for those who aren't Christians. Yes, Christians believe in only one God, who can manifest himself as (God/Jesus/or Holy Ghost).

Wiseone · Feb 10, 2012

Chaz said:
I recall one story I believe is of jewish origins; the story of job. In a nutshell god made a bet with satan that a man called job (who always prayed to him) would remain faithful to him regardless of the situation he was in (job at the time had a wonderfully comfortable life with a wife, kids, farm and a horde of animals) so in order to prove this job's wife and children were killed, his crops destroyed, his animals butchered and he was diseased with terrible conditions that cause great pain to him. Yeah, all this happened. Just to prove a point., to SATAN. Well in the end of the story we are relieved to find that after all this job was eventually cured when he proved his faith (after a LONG period of time in which he lost everything including his friends; who thought the reason for his ailments was because he did not worship god when he did or something like that) and yay! he got a brand new family, farm and life that was twice as good as his first!

This is why you aren't supposed to take the Bible literally.

Daktoria · Feb 10, 2012

OneMale said:
Dak, Jesus was of the Hebrew God. So your statement is inaccurate as the old testament is from the Torah and other books edited as usual by humanity's societal engineers of that period. Now matter how things change they operate the same way.

Is the Gospel in the Old Testament?

OneMale · Feb 10, 2012

Daktoria said:
Is the Gospel in the Old Testament?

Think compounding interest added by re-interpretation. Genetics in Literature. ssdd.
Light vs dark.
good cop vs bad cop.
rights vs incompletes but majority rules regardless what is believed rather than equally understood in iether theory or theology in charge of the moment and generation passing through.
All this from the simple push/pull of moving perpetually balanced magnets on a universal scale now creating the balance of everything going on here.

Yes it is that simple. Until people are convinced it isn't.

6 dimensions. atomic, molecular, elements and cellular results, solar systems, galaxy, galaxies now here. What forms the inside the skin is everything outsdie or it wouldn't be called a food chain of 3 axioms.
Plant and animal, being predatory or prey, continuing in male and female form each generation extending the presence within now's results so far.

This is so self containing and self maintaining it implodes every theory and theology mankind created to fool the entire population in any given moment. Until the body has had enough. Like the character Paul Newman played in Cool Hand Luke. You will have to kill me to get me to stop.

But humanity is going to pay for what it did to my sister and my mom in 2005. Without me harming a living sole. I have been governed by humanity all my life and I accpet most the rules of reality, but the balance of power is way out of control between the self anointed and the sole results every body is each generation.

Silent majority works in silence. understanding doesn't need social justification to deny something so what matters is never completely understood equally.
Daktoria, I like a lot of what you write, but within everything you write is a catch 22 that segregates sole result into existential roles of incomlete comprehensions.

Again, incomplete is always inaccurate. so facts compiled by adding theory and theology together is still incomplete. That makes it neither completely correct nor absolutely wrong and the "trick" is to find what each left out for existentialism to rule evey societal branch of humanity not recognizing now is forever here.

That comes back to time relativity combined with subjectivity and objectivity administered through politics, spirituality, and economics. Power, wealth, and fame the soul of character's rights.

Daktoria · Feb 10, 2012

OneMale said:
Think compounding interest added by re-interpretation. Genetics in Literature. ssdd.
Light vs dark.
good cop vs bad cop.
rights vs incompletes but majority rules regardless what is believed rather than equally understood in iether theory or theology in charge of the moment and generation passing through.
All this from the simple push/pull of moving perpetually balanced magnets on a universal scale now creating the balance of everything going on here.

Yes it is that simple. Until people are convinced it isn't.

6 dimensions. atomic, molecular, elements and cellular results, solar systems, galaxy, galaxies now here. What forms the inside the skin is everything outsdie or it wouldn't be called a food chain of 3 axioms.
Plant and animal, being predatory or prey, continuing in male and female form each generation extending the presence within now's results so far.

This is so self containing and self maintaining it implodes every theory and theology mankind created to fool the entire population in any given moment. Until the body has had enough. Like the character Paul Newman played in Cool Hand Luke. You will have to kill me to get me to stop.

But humanity is going to pay for what it did to my sister and my mom in 2005. Without me harming a living sole. I have been governed by humanity all my life and I accpet most the rules of reality, but the balance of power is way out of control between the self anopinted and the sole results every body is each generation.

Silent majority works in silence. understanding doesn't need social justification to deny everything so what matters is never completely understood equally.
Daktoria, I like a lot of what you write, but within everything you write is a catch 22 that segregates sole result into existential roles of incomlete comprehensions.

I know.

Regardless, you should read the books of Amos and Jonah. The transition from a cruel to merciful god between the Old and New Testaments is very explicit.

OneMale · Feb 10, 2012

Daktoria said:
I know.

Regardless, you should read the books of Amos and Jonah. The transition from a cruel to merciful god between the Old and New Testaments is very explicit.

When eternity is now and the generation here is living in the same moment under different details, is not the results working the same way. The self anointed creating their reality everybody else pays for. ssdd.
The genetics change the genders but the role playing stays the same.

See what I mean about your Catch 22. Regardless. That means ignore the self evident. And that my friend is the Original sin of humans becoming humanity's societal characters under it's own laws of the land tipping the scales to those that command the language arts in educating self deception each next generation now reproduces here in the same moment of balance the entire ancestry lived within.

"....on earth as it is in Heavens above...". Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.

You are welcome. Now make your choice will now remain eternal hell or return to the Garden of Eden Earth has forever been. Not some passageway between continents society's children have fought over for 150 generations. 3,000 years in humanity's time relativity.

OneMale · Feb 10, 2012

Rosie1 said:
Wow, Onemale, that's the shortest, clearest thing you've every posted. I actually comprehend what you said, and I agree. We were always taught that the Hebrew God and the Christian God were one and the same. God changed and became forgiving/benevolant. Because of that he sent Jesus. In actuality he came as Jesus. It's very confusing to take that all in for those who aren't Christians. Yes, Christians believe in only one God, who can manifest himself as (God/Jesus/or Holy Ghost).

Or now always being here for every generation of lifetimes passing through, until one species tips the scales and brings everything eternally here cellularly out of existence playing vernacular tribalism so those directing from staged events can make fun of the paying audience.

Your polite condescension dually comprehended and politely responded to likewise. I understand subliminal as well as blatant.

Daktoria · Feb 10, 2012

OneMale said:
When eternity is now and the generation here is living in the same moment under different details, is not the results working the same way. The self anointed creating their reality everybody else pays for. ssdd.
The genetics change the genders but the role playing stays the same.

See what I mean about your Catch 22. Regardless. That means ignore the self evident. And that my friend is the Original sin of humans becoming humanity's societal characters under it's own laws of the land tipping the scales to those that command the language arts in educating self deception each next generation now reproduces here in the same moment of balance the entire ancestry lived within.

"....on earth as it is in Heavens above...". Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.

You are welcome. Now make your choice will now remain eternal hell or return to the Garden of Eden Earth has forever been. Not some passageway between continents society's children have fought over for 150 generations. 3,000 years in humanity's time relativity.

Again, I know.

You need to take a dose of your own medicine, though, OMH. I agree, the problem is some people get caught up in the moment, and they ignore future implications.

You have to make a decision yourself about choosing to compress eternity in the moment or not. That's what socializing is about - how much time you are willing to invest. How many possibilities are you trying to compress into a single phrase?

When you compress too many, other people get turned off. It makes you seem difficult, or even worse, it makes you seem cheap. Compressing too many possibilities into a single phrase sells yourself short and gives others the impression they don't have to say much to attract you into the future.

Learn to tease. Give out one detail at a time, not everything at once.

OneMale · Feb 10, 2012

Daktoria said:
Again, I know.

You need to take a dose of your own medicine, though, OMH. I agree, the problem is some people get caught up in the moment, and they ignore future implications.

You have to make a decision yourself about choosing to compress eternity in the moment or not. That's what socializing is about - how much time you are willing to invest. How many possibilities are you trying to compress into a single phrase?

When you compress too many, other people get turned off. It makes you seem difficult, or even worse, it makes you seem cheap. Compressing too many possibilities into a single phrase sells yourself short and gives others the impression they don't have to say much to attract you into the future.

Learn to tease. Give out one detail at a time, not everything at once.

You do not think I apply this to myself first? Now you are using the excuse I,you, was teasing. because you got your vernacular caught in the cookie jar. I learned to make cookies so good they give taste buds orgasms, so I do not have to raid anyone else's jars.

Daktoria · Feb 10, 2012

OneMale said:
You do not think I apply this to myself first? Now you are using the excuse I,you, was teasing. because you got your vernacular caught in the cookie jar. I learned to make cookies so good they give taste buds orgasms, so I do not have to raid anyone else's jars.

You don't give anyone orgasms, OMH. Stop lying to yourself.

Believe me, I know I struggle with this too. I'm just trying to help you out because I care. Don't prey on me.

OneMale · Feb 10, 2012

Daktoria said:
You don't give anyone orgasms, OMH. Stop lying to yourself.

Believe me, I know I struggle with this too. I'm just trying to help you out because I care. Don't prey on me.

did I say I did, The cookies do, not me. Second, there is a difference between teasing and Hazing. I understand eternity only exists now and there is no time relativity that alters that real time for everything spaced as it has been and is going on now.

So now you want to paint me the predator, buzz off. Your ideology is exposed.

In November of 2006 I sent two e-mails of the same message to Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton.

Beware the predator so Bold as to feed from it's own kind for they must prepare to become the meal of their next preyed upon. Both their responses, you aren't in my congressional district.

ps. I will not repond to pm's

ecofarm · Feb 11, 2012

Daktoria said:
Just to be clear, the Christian God is not the Jewish God. The Christian God is based on a new covenant of grace and forgiveness.

Especially considering how persecuted they've been, I never understood how Jews could live under divine masochism.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Try reading Romans or Galatians. There is only one Gospel. All the righteous men of the OT were so because of faith, not because of deeds. The OT as interpreteted by legalistic Jews of Jesus' time was a perversion of God's Law. The Law was to point to the necessary Messiah (sacrifices to atone for sin), to display the beautiful character of God and to show that only by faith can one be saved.

It was not God who proposed salvation by works, but legalistic Jews who had lost sight of the Gospel in the OT (that being, righteous judgement before God via faith).

The first covenant (the Law) and the second covenant (Christ) are both providing the same and only Gospel.

Aunt Spiker · Feb 11, 2012

Sometimes perfection is an illusion: perfect imperfection - made to create a sense of perfect balance based on *the way* you see things. for the illusion to be 'perfect' you must be looking at it from a particular angle or direction. . . look at it in another way and it will seem 'off' or 'wrong'

Like the Parthenon and pillars.

grip · Feb 11, 2012

obvious Child said:
If we define Perfect as "without flaws" then the Biblical concept of God doesn't make logical sense.

If we are to assume that the Biblical God exists outside of time, it therefore knew what would happen in such a creation before he created it as he exists at all points in time. Therefore, God would know that what he would create would be with flaws (yet created it anyways). Furthermore, the logical corollary that imperfection cannot come from perfection as perfection is without flaws (how can flaws come from the absence of flaws?), then God created an imperfect creation and therefore is imperfect himself.

But God itself is not bound by logic, rendering the application of logic to a being not bound by logic moot.

I think this is close. Maybe our perception of flawed will be shown in the end to have been a plan of perfection.

obvious Child · Feb 13, 2012

grip said:
I think this is close. Maybe our perception of flawed will be shown in the end to have been a plan of perfection.

That could be, but that would be odd. That would redefine perfection as having the state of being flawless and flawed at the same time. I'm not sure it has a meaning at that point.

Jerry · Feb 13, 2012

Chaz said:
This is a question I have always wondered when thinking about any religions stories regardign their god. It is always said that god is a perfect being flawless, just, kind and whatever else the person who thinks of god that he/she would consider perfect. Yet in the stories found in texts such as the bible why is it god is always portrayed as angry and spiteful? He does not hesistate to inflict harm on others who disobey him, he smites cities and floods the world if he does not like where things are going and he crashes towns to the ground and confuses the languages of man because he did not like the fact they were united in one area. Yet at the same time people say the reason god does not cure the ailments of man (war, hunger, disease, etc) is because he does not want to interfere with us mortals whenever.

I recall one story I believe is of jewish origins; the story of job. In a nutshell god made a bet with satan that a man called job (who always prayed to him) would remain faithful to him regardless of the situation he was in (job at the time had a wonderfully comfortable life with a wife, kids, farm and a horde of animals) so in order to prove this job's wife and children were killed, his crops destroyed, his animals butchered and he was diseased with terrible conditions that cause great pain to him. Yeah, all this happened. Just to prove a point., to SATAN. Well in the end of the story we are relieved to find that after all this job was eventually cured when he proved his faith (after a LONG period of time in which he lost everything including his friends; who thought the reason for his ailments was because he did not worship god when he did or something like that) and yay! he got a brand new family, farm and life that was twice as good as his first!

Seriously? This is supposed to be a happy ending? God let this man suffer to prove a point in a petty bet as as show of pride and let innocent people suffer in order to do it; andwe are supposed to be happy because his new life was twice as good in the end?

I don't know about you guys but to me all of the examples I have listed seem to do nothing but prove god is not merciful, kind and just but rather mean, hateful, arrogant and spiteful and unjust (he let innocent people die and suffer to prove a point; how is that just?). So please someone explain to me how this god is meant to be portrayed as perfect? It seems to me that...

A: God is not perfect
B: God is perfect but the stories being written by man are not accurate to gods true nature.
C: God doesn't exist and the reason he is flawed is because the people who created the idea of him were also flawed.

If I missed soemthing I would love it if someone would let me know; because all I know as of yet is if the god people claim to be perfect and the god who allows all this harm to be inflicted are supposed to be the same, then the world has a seriously scary view of perfection and justice.

I've never been worried about it. God is who God is, all I can to is decide what my attitude will be.

Isn't god supposed to be perfect?

Chaz

Member

lizzie

Enola

Daktoria

lizzie

OneMale

Misbelief

Member

Temporal

obvious Child

Equal Opportunity Hater

Rosie1

Wiseone

Daktoria

OneMale

Daktoria

OneMale

OneMale

Daktoria

OneMale

Daktoria

OneMale

ecofarm

global liberation

Aunt Spiker

Cheese

grip

Slow 🅖 Hand

obvious Child

Equal Opportunity Hater

Jerry