Question for Monotheists

Lokiate said:

Except that Jesus came not to change the laws, but to fulfill prophecy (Matthew 5:17). Also, do remember that the Jews are the Chosen People of God.

Click to expand...

Came not to 'destroy' the law. And, yes, Jesus did not change the law either. What changed was that those who were believers were no longer under the law. The Mosaic law did no longer determine their relationship with God.

Yes, the Jews are the chosen earthly people of God. So?

Quantrill

Quantrill said:

Came not to 'destroy' the law. And, yes, Jesus did not change the law either. What changed was that those who were believers were no longer under the law. The Mosaic law did no longer determine their relationship with God.

Yes, the Jews are the chosen earthly people of God. So?

Quantrill

Click to expand...

What a copout! He didn't change the laws promoting murderer and slavery, he just made it so no one was covered under them anymore!

Quantrill said:

Came not to 'destroy' the law. And, yes, Jesus did not change the law either. What changed was that those who were believers were no longer under the law. The Mosaic law did no longer determine their relationship with God.

Click to expand...

Since when? Jesus came here to absolve us from sin through his sacrifice, because God saw how imperfect and weak we are. The 10 Commandments still apply, the Law still applies. Through Christ is absolution from sin, not the laws of God.

Yes, the Jews are the chosen earthly people of God. So?

Click to expand...

So they won't go to Hell for being Jews, and not Christians. Christ came for those who were living in sin, and to spread Gods love and mercy to all of mankind, not just his specific Chosen People.

Lokiate said:

Since when? Jesus came here to absolve us from sin through his sacrifice, because God saw how imperfect and weak we are. The 10 Commandments still apply, the Law still applies. Through Christ is absolution from sin, not the laws of God.

So they won't go to Hell for being Jews, and not Christians. Christ came for those who were living in sin, and to spread Gods love and mercy to all of mankind, not just his specific Chosen People.

Click to expand...

Jesus Christ had a twofold purpose in the first coming. First He came offering Himself to Israel as her Messiah and King. As prophecied in the Old Testament. He came offering to them the Kingdom over the earth, as prophecied in the Old Testament. The laws of the kingdom were given, Matt.5-7. That is not the Mosaic Law, but the Kingdom Law. The Mosaic Law was on the way out, having fulfilled its purpose by God. Israel rejected her Messiah.

Yes Jesus Christ came also to pay the penalty of sin. But, it was accomplished through the disobeidience of Israel in here rejecti0n of her Messiah and King. The sin question was dealt with. The resurrection accomplished. The Holy Spirit came down and indwelt the body of believers. But because Israel rejected her Messiah and King, she was now in an unbelieving state. And she was in turn, rejected by God. And God formed a new Body, the Church which consists not of a national people such as Israel, but of people from everywhere, though mostly Europe and Russia.

The Jews are the eartly chosen race of God. That doesn't mean they have a free ticket to heaven. They must believe. But from the Jews will come the salvation of God and rule over the world. A Jew is one who is born of one of the 12 tribes of Israel and is a believer in God. Their God who gave the Bible, and Jesus Christ.

Quantrill

Lokiate said:

Since when? Jesus came here to absolve us from sin through his sacrifice, because God saw how imperfect and weak we are. The 10 Commandments still apply, the Law still applies. Through Christ is absolution from sin, not the laws of God.

So they won't go to Hell for being Jews, and not Christians. Christ came for those who were living in sin, and to spread Gods love and mercy to all of mankind, not just his specific Chosen People.

Click to expand...

Jesus Christ never said he came to absolve us from sin through his sacrifice. So how do you know this?

RabidAlpaca said:

What a copout! He didn't change the laws promoting murderer and slavery, he just made it so no one was covered under them anymore!

Click to expand...

RabidAlpaca, I want to share with you an article you may like (or find useful):

W M Gervais, A Norenzayan. Analytic Thinking Promotes Religious Disbelief. In Science 336, 6080 (Apr 27, 2012): 493-496.
Analytic Thinking Promotes Religious Disbelief

Don't worry - the researchers found that the effects of their experiments were temporary.

Please read the nice sources I recommended in your breaks from analytic thinking.

choiceone said:

RabidAlpaca, I want to share with you an article you may like (or find useful):

W M Gervais, A Norenzayan. Analytic Thinking Promotes Religious Disbelief. In Science 336, 6080 (Apr 27, 2012): 493-496.
Analytic Thinking Promotes Religious Disbelief

Don't worry - the researchers found that the effects of their experiments were temporary.

Please read the nice sources I recommended in your breaks from analytic thinking.

Click to expand...

Thanks for thinking about me, but I don't see myself every stopping to be logical, and if I do, then my opinions can't be trusted anyway.

I will continue to look for evidence, any evidence at all that the basic tenants of christianity hold any truth, but I don't see that happening.

RabidAlpaca said:

Thanks for thinking about me, but I don't see myself every stopping to be logical, and if I do, then my opinions can't be trusted anyway.

I will continue to look for evidence, any evidence at all that the basic tenants of christianity hold any truth, but I don't see that happening.

Click to expand...

Faith comes before evidence. Looking for evidence before faith is impossible,

RabidAlpaca said:

Thanks for thinking about me, but I don't see myself every stopping to be logical, and if I do, then my opinions can't be trusted anyway.

I will continue to look for evidence, any evidence at all that the basic tenants of christianity hold any truth, but I don't see that happening.

Click to expand...

You don't have to stop being logical. We are all both logical and intuitive. It's just a question of letting one ability dominate sometimes and another ability dominate at other times, to have variety. Logical may do for opinions, but intuitive is good for some other things, and if for nothing else, at least entertainment.

reefedjib said:

Faith comes before evidence. Looking for evidence before faith is impossible,

Click to expand...

Believe something first, then contort the facts to match your views, not the other way around. Sounds legit.

RabidAlpaca said:

Thanks for thinking about me, but I don't see myself every stopping to be logical, and if I do, then my opinions can't be trusted anyway.

I will continue to look for evidence, any evidence at all that the basic tenants of christianity hold any truth, but I don't see that happening.

Click to expand...

Let me add that both Christianity and Islam are Bhakti Yoga oriented religions - they rely on Love of God. What you need is Jnana Yoga, the Yoga of Knowledge. Of course, some of the texts in the Nag Hammadi are Jnana oriented, and there is an ontological model with the Bible, but it is not very robust.

I would recommend reading:

• Kabbalah
• Gnostic texts
• Jnana Yoga by Swami Vivekananda
• Mundaka Upanishad

The Vedantic model is especially interesting (Jnana Yoga and Mundaka Upanishad)....

Brahman is the Absolute, inactive and formless substrate upon which all existence manifests. Brahman has no attributes. This is very similar to Allah. Brahman/Allah is also seen as "the God within the Father". Within Brahman, Shakti, the creative principle - pure divine Love, spontaneously acts through vibration with Brahman and induces the manifestation of (a) Ishvara, the fundamental creator God, a la the Father, and (b) Maya. Shakti is the Holy Spirit.

From maya comes the physical universe.

From Ishvara comes all consciousness. Ishvara is the active, creator God and has the attributes of Omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresence.

Any experience that one has is due to the subjective observation, by the light of Brahman with consciousness, of the object, itself alight through the light of Brahman in maya.

RabidAlpaca said:

Believe something first, then contort the facts to match your views, not the other way around. Sounds legit.

Click to expand...

"contort the facts"? Sounds like you should say re-interpret the facts. I can explain any question you may have, based on facts.

As far as faith being required before subjective evidence of the Divine will show itself, that is just the way it works. You have to punch through avidya-maya will an assertion of faith, then God reveals herself. This evidence is not evidence of the multi-faceting reality of the physical universe, but evidence of your Divine nature, inside your consciousness.

reefedjib said:

"contort the facts"? Sounds like you should say re-interpret the facts. I can explain any question you may have, based on facts.

Click to expand...

No, you will quote the bible, which has nothing of spiritual significance that can be verified in the slightest, which prevents them from being facts.

It's ok, I don't care anymore. Christians can't explain or prove why they believe what they believe, they just do.

RabidAlpaca said:

No, you will quote the bible, which has nothing of spiritual significance that can be verified in the slightest, which prevents them from being facts.

It's ok, I don't care anymore. Christians can't explain or prove why they believe what they believe, they just do.

Click to expand...

That is just the thing. It can be verified. But first you need faith.

reefedjib said:

That is just the thing. It can be verified. But first you need faith.

Click to expand...

And we can keep going in circles. I had an abundance of faith for 25 years of my life, and I never found any evidence.

RabidAlpaca said:

And we can keep going in circles. I had an abundance of faith for 25 years of my life, and I never found any evidence.

Click to expand...

Did you lose your faith because you didn't find any evidence? Just trying to understand what you're really communicating here.

choiceone said:

Jesus Christ never said he came to absolve us from sin through his sacrifice. So how do you know this?

Click to expand...

It was the entire point of the crucifixion. I don't remember the chapter and verse, but Jesus told this parable by dipping a piece of cloth in wine, stating that his blood cleanses our sin. Of course, after you choose said path, sin is not acceptable. The Crucifixion was a new Covenant.

nota bene said:

Did you lose your faith because you didn't find any evidence? Just trying to understand what you're really communicating here.

Click to expand...

That is certainly a very large bit of it. I mean, I see it as no different than that I was raised to believe in Santa. Eventually you start to have doubts about santa and start to demand evidence, when no evidence can be provided, you give up on the notion altogether.

Aside from that, I find I have major moral issues with christianity. Primarily the condoning of rape, murder and slavery in the new testament, but also that a supposed all-powerful, but somehow merciful god will damn the majority of mankind to ETERNAL hellfire. It's so outrageous that if that's true, god is the greatest tyrant to ever live. Certainly not worth the label merciful or just.

RabidAlpaca said:

That is certainly a very large bit of it. I mean, I see it as no different than that I was raised to believe in Santa. Eventually you start to have doubts about santa and start to demand evidence, when no evidence can be provided, you give up on the notion altogether.

Aside from that, I find I have major moral issues with christianity. Primarily the condoning of rape, murder and slavery in the new testament, but also that a supposed all-powerful, but somehow merciful god will damn the majority of mankind to ETERNAL hellfire. It's so outrageous that if that's true, god is the greatest tyrant to ever live. Certainly not worth the label merciful or just.

Click to expand...

Corretion: OLD testament. Though I'm not a fan of the new one either.

Lokiate said:

It was the entire point of the crucifixion. I don't remember the chapter and verse, but Jesus told this parable by dipping a piece of cloth in wine, stating that his blood cleanses our sin. Of course, after you choose said path, sin is not acceptable. The Crucifixion was a new Covenant.

Click to expand...

Jesus said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do whatsoever I tell you." He did not lay down his life for his enemies or for anyone who was not his friend, and that means he did not lay down his life for anyone who does not do what he tells them. It is not that after choosing that path sin is not acceptable. It is that if you are his friend you do what he tells you and, if so, he laid down his life for you - and in doing so, he demonstrated the greatest love, so he was restored to a higher life, which fulfilled his own words that if they destroyed this temple, in three days he would restore it. But what it means that he laid down his life is variously interpreted by Christians. Some consider that the meaning is not that he gave up the Holy Ghost so that others would have it, because there is no evidence that, say, Peter was able to heal because the Holy Ghost was upon him - rather, Jesus told his disciples that they could heal in his name and Peter did so. The Holy Ghost goeth where it listeth - no church has control of it.

Temporal said:

There are those who believe that the supreme beings in all of the different religions of the world are simply all the same being. God, Allah, Yahweh, Om, Onkar, etc. all refer to the same thing according to these believers.

My question is... are they all synonymous in your eyes? For example, if you are Christian, do you regard any of the above as a different name for what you already believe in, or is "God" your God and Allah is theirs?

Please explain your answer because I am curious!

Click to expand...

I believe that many of the religions of the world are worshiping the same God.

God is the ultimate reality, Creator of the universe, Whose nature is unknowable and inaccessible to humankind. Such designations as God, Allah, Yahweh, Brahma all refer to the One Divine Being. We learn about God through His Messengers, who teach and guide humanity.

Temporal said:

There are those who believe that the supreme beings in all of the different religions of the world are simply all the same being. God, Allah, Yahweh, Om, Onkar, etc. all refer to the same thing according to these believers.

My question is... are they all synonymous in your eyes? For example, if you are Christian, do you regard any of the above as a different name for what you already believe in, or is "God" your God and Allah is theirs?

Please explain your answer because I am curious!

Click to expand...

Other monotheists believe in the same God as Christians, although their worship of him is severely deficient.

Henotheists worship both the true God and false gods.