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Why I Can No Longer Call Myself an Evangelical Republican

tosca1 said:
It was legal to persecute Jews in Germany at one time under Hitler.
Do you think it should've stayed that way - that no one should've bothered about trying to make
some changes?

Poverty is a reality - no matter how we try to push for changes to make a difference - it doesn't go away. Should we just give up? Why bother?

Do we lose hope for people getting slaughtered, and just look the other way?
We'll just say, "we'll pray for you." And that's it?

We're fortunate to be living in a democratic society where-in we can have a say, by casting our votes.
So.....why shouldn't we keep trying?
Click to expand...

How many times do you need to hear that Abortion/Gay marriage are U.S. Supreme court issues--something that you can't vote on? Nor will you ever to be able to vote on it.

Abortion has been challenged numerous times in Federal District courts across this nation. And in each & every time it has failed, because the U.S. Supreme Court is the law of the land.

Even Governors like Mike Pence (now Vice President) have continually been overruled on state abortion regulations that they have signed into law, by Federal District courts.
https://www.indystar.com/story/news...ortion-restrictions-into-law-prayer/82225890/
Federal judge blocks Indiana abortion law signed by Pence

One Federal District court judge in Texas, a Bush 1 appointee was inteviewed, and stated he is tired of all these state abortion laws coming across his desk that he is continually having to overrule. When asked why he thought he got so many. He stated that most Republican state legislators are men, and they really have no business interferring into womens issues.

You're not going to change anything on Abortion or Gay Marriage, but you're doing a dam good job of chasing off voters that would prefer that candidates concentrate on things they can actually do to improve the lives of Americans in this country. There are Republicans that are pro-choice as there are Republicans that are pro-life, as there are Democrats that are pro-choice as there are Democrats that are pro-life.

These issues do not belong ANYWHERE on a political platform. Washington D.C. is not your church. You cannot legislate your version of morality from Washington D.C.

Any politician that tells you (they can do something about U.S. Supreme court issues) is lying through their teeth for your donations and votes. Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, Mike Huckabee, Rick Santorum, Rick Perry, Scott Walker, Bobby Jindhal have all catered to Republican evangelicals over abortion--and have promised many things that would never have a snowballs chance in hell of ever coming to fruition.
 
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Oreo said:
I was a life long Republican until you made this vial vulgar Ass Clown the poster boy of the Republican party. I then switched my party status to independent & followed the advice of a long time friend and former staffer of RONALD REAGAN.
Click to expand...

Which vulgar clown did I make the poster boy? I'm a bit confused by that comment.
 
LesGovt said:
Which vulgar clown did I make the poster boy? I'm a bit confused by that comment.
Click to expand...



Don't act like to didn't hear this before you voted for Trump. It was everywhere.
 
Oreo said:
Don't act like to didn't hear this before you voted for Trump. It was everywhere.
Click to expand...

What you failed to notice is that I am a Christian conservative who normally votes GOP. But in 2017, I did not. I voted for the first time third party. So, if you are going to accuse me of something, it would be best if you knew the truth before you misstate it.
 
LesGovt said:
What you failed to notice is that I am a Christian conservative who normally votes GOP. But in 2017, I did not. I voted for the first time third party. So, if you are going to accuse me of something, it would be best if you knew the truth before you misstate it.
Click to expand...

Like I said I am not blaming people who didn't vote for Trump--but you asked me what the vile & vulgar part was that I was talking about--indicating that you wanted to discuss something you didn't know about--(when everyone knew about it.) The only people who do that are typically Trump voters in an effort to deflect from the conversation.

The first mistake was making this Ass clown the poster boy of the Republican party, the 2nd mistake was not voting for Hillary Clinton to keep this Ass clown out of the Oval office. 3rd party voting put Trump in the Oval office because there were 7 million Republicans that did that. As stated by Hamilton in the Federalist papers:

Star-struck, low-information celebrity cultists will vote for Trump under any circumstances because they do not know any better and do not care. For them, Trump is whatever they want him to be, and they will never change their minds. The rest of us, however, have a much more difficult choice to make. Will we really oppose Trump to the point of accepting any alternative, including Hillary Clinton?

The answer, at least for me, is: Yes. If forced into a choice between Clinton and Trump, I will prefer Hillary Clinton. The future of the entire conservative movement is at stake, and a Clinton victory over Trump might be the only hope of saving it.

Better to lose to the opposition whose policies you can fight and repudiate, rather than to a false friend whose schemes will drag you down with him.
Click to expand...
I?ll Take Hillary Clinton Over Donald Trump

Republicans are left with two options:
1. Remove Trump and his Russian cohorts from office asap or
2. Burn the entire party down in 2018--2020 & beyond.

If Republicans can do 3-1/2 years & 8 investigations into Benghazi and endless email discussion, it's not hard to imagine what Democrats will do with Treason, Obstruction & Lies when they take over in 2018. Everyone will also get a great education into what the Emoluments clause is the constitution is all about, which is another reason for impeachment, if Democrats don't want to go along with the current setup.
https://www.brookings.edu/research/...xt-meaning-and-application-to-donald-j-trump/

The Republican party has really been put on an endangered species list because of their support for Trump & Moore. It's already showed up in Virginia, New Jersey and now Alabama--the redest of the red states. There's blood in the water now. The DNC has been energized and has announced that they're running Democrats in the state of Texas for every congressional seat and state house position. This will be going on across the country.
https://www.npr.org/2017/12/13/5702...democratic-candidates-surge-in-deep-red-texas
 
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Oreo said:
There are times in life when the institutional ground underneath you begins to crumble — and with it, longstanding attachments. Such is the case for me when it comes to the Republican Party and evangelicalism.

How could 81% of Evangelicals cast a vote for a man with no honor, no respect, no dignity, no decency and the only loyality he has ever shown to anyone was to himself and Vladimir Putin? How do Evangelicals stand up in support of a man that has been accused repeatedly of being a child molestor?

So are they really Christians? I don't think so. I think they're more red hat Jesus followers, than real Christians.
Click to expand...

The article below disputes your claim that 81% of Evangelical Christians voted for Trump is incorrect. It claims that the total was most likely between 35 to 45%. Here are some of the reasons that it lists:

1. The exit polls only count white Evangelicals.
2. There is a distinction between born again Christians and Evangelical Christians and the polls do not separate them.
3. Many "cultural" Christians say they are Evangelical, but don't attend any church.
4. Exit polls only tell us about people who voted. It doesn't take into account those who did not vote.
5. "One more category from the exit poll that is worthy of notice is the “Best description of vote.” While the majority of Democratic voters said, “I strongly favor my candidate” (53 percent), only 42 percent of Republicans said the same. The majority of Republicans said the best description of their vote was “I dislike the other candidates” (51 percent)."

Now, you and I could argue about which candidate was the more honorable, the more Christian, and a more decent candidate, but a majority of Republicans had more problems with Hillary than Donald. That doesn't mean Evangelicals did not have problems with Trump. My guess is 99.9% did have problems. Now, if you believe that Hillary is a most honorable, Christian decent candidate who had political polices that matched yours, I could see why you might vote for Hillary. I did not care for either and that is why I went third party.

I can tell you that my wife is also a Christian conservative and she voted for Trump. To this day, she cringes at many of Trumps tweets and the rhetoric he uses in verbal communications. She says if a man tried to grope her, she would punch him and warn him not to try that again. She would not report it then nor now.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/no-the-majority-of-american-evangelicals-did-not-vote-for-trump/

One more thing about views of the election. While I voted for third party, I am still a Republican and will probably remain one since they are closer to my beliefs than the Democrats. I believe Trump's election is partially due to the Obama Administration and what happened then with regards to health care, terrorism, and illegal immigration. I further wonder how many crossed party lines to vote for Trump and how many had been sitting on the sidelines for years and didn't vote until they voted for Trump. I believe this election was about certain Americans fed up with the system and wanted change and they felt that Trump was the Trump agent and Hillary wasn't.
 
Oreo said:
How many times do you need to hear that Abortion/Gay marriage are U.S. Supreme court issues--something that you can't vote on? Nor will you ever to be able to vote on it.

Abortion has been challenged numerous times in Federal District courts across this nation. And in each & every time it has failed, because the U.S. Supreme Court is the law of the land.

Even Governors like Mike Pence (now Vice President) have continually been overruled on state abortion regulations that they have signed into law, by Federal District courts.
https://www.indystar.com/story/news...ortion-restrictions-into-law-prayer/82225890/
Federal judge blocks Indiana abortion law signed by Pence

One Federal District court judge in Texas, a Bush 1 appointee was inteviewed, and stated he is tired of all these state abortion laws coming across his desk that he is continually having to overrule. When asked why he thought he got so many. He stated that most Republican state legislators are men, and they really have no business interferring into womens issues.

You're not going to change anything on Abortion or Gay Marriage, but you're doing a dam good job of chasing off voters that would prefer that candidates concentrate on things they can actually do to improve the lives of Americans in this country. There are Republicans that are pro-choice as there are Republicans that are pro-life, as there are Democrats that are pro-choice as there are Democrats that are pro-life.

These issues do not belong ANYWHERE on a political platform. Washington D.C. is not your church. You cannot legislate your version of morality from Washington D.C.

Any politician that tells you (they can do something about U.S. Supreme court issues) is lying through their teeth for your donations and votes. Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, Mike Huckabee, Rick Santorum, Rick Perry, Scott Walker, Bobby Jindhal have all catered to Republican evangelicals over abortion--and have promised many things that would never have a snowballs chance in hell of ever coming to fruition.
Click to expand...

If laws can be changed - it can happen again. :shrug:
Right now, it seems hopeless because of the clime.


We'll never know unless we try.
Fortunately, we have the right to cast our votes.....we'll just have to keep trying.

Who knows, science will discover something about the fetus that could change the status of the fetus,
and that could change abortion laws.
 
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Recognizing and respecting the dignity of every human life would be a great beginning.
 
Oreo said:
Like I said I am not blaming people who didn't vote for Trump--but you asked me what the vile & vulgar part was that I was talking about--indicating that you wanted to discuss something you didn't know about--(when everyone knew about it.) The only people who do that are typically Trump voters in an effort to deflect from the conversation.

The first mistake was making this Ass clown the poster boy of the Republican party, the 2nd mistake was not voting for Hillary Clinton to keep this Ass clown out of the Oval office. 3rd party voting put Trump in the Oval office because there were 7 million Republicans that did that.
Click to expand...

May I suggest that you change your verbiage when talking to an individual. Instead of stating, "...until you made this vial vulgar Ass Clown the poster boy of the Republican party..." it might be better to say "...until those who made this vial vulgar Ass Clown the poster boy of the Republican party..." It takes it out of the personal. As for voting for Hillary, that was never going to be an option. I am a conservative. I would have voted for Trump over Hillary, but I felt like neither was a good option. It appears to me that if we do not agree with you, then you want to label us as less than good people. May I suggest a course in "How to Win Friends and Influence People?"
 
Oreo said:
Republicans are left with two options:
1. Remove Trump and his Russian cohorts from office asap or
2. Burn the entire party down in 2018--2020 & beyond.
Click to expand...

Wow! You say you were a Republican, but you want them to bow to your wishes or blow up the party.

I would hope for this to happen:

1. Trump to wear large mittens so he cannot text and only deliver the text that is provided for him. (That is not going to happen.)
2. Trump and Congress to work together to accomplish the following:
a, Fund and build the wall
b. Fully implement e-verify
c. Cut taxes
d. Keep terrorists from coming into the U.S.
e. Repeal and replace ACA
3A. Trump wins 2nd term and keeps mittens on and follows prepared text
OR
3b. Trump decides not to run, and Pence does and wins the election.

I find these to be more like what an Evangelical Christian would prefer.

Which person would you vote for in 2020, knowing only what you know now?

Mike Pence
Elizabeth Warren
 
tosca1 said:
If laws can be changed - it can happen again. :shrug:
Right now, it seems hopeless because of the clime.


We'll never know unless we try.
Fortunately, we have the right to cast our votes.....we'll just have to keep trying.

Who knows, science will discover something about the fetus that could change the status of the fetus,
and that could change abortion laws.
Click to expand...

You've tried and you have failed miserably. The only thing you have done is awoken a sleeping giant that will be coming for anyone with an R behind their names in 2018.

170121211838-28-womens-march-dc-exlarge-169.jpg

Woman's march the day after Trump was inaugurated, Washington D.C. This was going on in every state, not just D.C. For more pictures go to this link
Woman's march pictures | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

This is the result of the Evangelical wing of the Republican party trying to challenge Roe v Wade, a 46 year old already settled U.S. Supreme Court decision, on a political platform.

Niel Gorsuch--Trump's pick for the U.S. Supreme court stated during Senate confirmation hearings--that Roe v Wade is precedent in the U.S. Constitution, meaning set in stone to you.

Judge Neil Gorsuch said Tuesday the controversial Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion is “precedent” and acknowledged the ruling had been reaffirmed “many times.”

Gorsuch, President Trump’s nominee to fill the Supreme Court seat vacated when Justice Antonin Scalia died, does not have much of a history ruling on abortion issues, and the contentious subject was one of the first topics broached during the question-and-answer session of Gorsuch’s confirmation hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee.

“Roe v. Wade, decided in 1973, is a precedent of the United States Supreme Court, it has been reaffirmed…and all of the other factors that go into analyzing precedent have to be considered,” Gorsuch told Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa. “…A good judge will consider it as precedent of the United States Supreme Court, worthy as treatment of precedent like any other.”
Sen. Dianne Feinstein, the first Democrat to question Gorsuch, immediately followed up, citing the importance of the issue since, she said, President Trump “said he would appoint someone who would overturn Roe.”

“Once a case is settled, that adds to the determinacy of the law,” Gorsuch told Feinstein, clarifying his position on precedent. “What was once a hotly-contested issue is no longer a hotly-contested issue. We move forward.”

Feinstein asked if Gorsuch considered Roe v. Wade “super precedent” – a decision that cannot be overturned.

“It has been reaffirmed many times, I can say that,” Gorsuch answered.

Feinstein quickly added: “Yes. Dozens.”
Click to expand...
Gorsuch to Feinstein: Abortion ruling is 'precedent' | Fox News

As I stated--state Abortion laws that governors sign into law are immediately overturned by Federal District courts. Personhood bills have failed miserably on ballots across this country, including in my state of Colorado, even though 3 attempts were made. If by some miracle it were ever to pass a Federal District court would overrule it immediately.
Personhood goes down in Colorado: Voters say no to Amendment 67.
https://www.indystar.com/story/news...ortion-restrictions-into-law-prayer/82225890/
Federal judge blocks Indiana abortion law signed by Pence

When Republican governors sign state abortion laws, they are in effect are putting the taxpayers of their states at risk for class action lawsuits.

Mary Fallin the Republican governor of Oklahoma refused to sign an abortion law, citing she knew it would be overruled immediately.

Oklahoma Gov. Mary Fallin, the self-described "most pro-life governor in the nation," refused to sign a bill Friday that would have criminalized performing any abortions, effectively ending the practice in the state, calling the bill “unconstitutional.”
Click to expand...
https://www.law360.com/articles/798988/okla-gov-won-t-sign-unconstitutional-abortion-bill

The best way to address abortion is through education. An abortion costs $1200 to $1700 depending on the state you live in. Taxpayer dollars cannot be used to fund abortions. All states have their own laws regarding late term abortions, some more strict than others--usually 20 weeks, some less than that.
 
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LesGovt said:
The article below disputes your claim that 81% of Evangelical Christians voted for Trump is incorrect. It claims that the total was most likely between 35 to 45%. Here are some of the reasons that it lists:

1. The exit polls only count white Evangelicals.
2. There is a distinction between born again Christians and Evangelical Christians and the polls do not separate them.
3. Many "cultural" Christians say they are Evangelical, but don't attend any church.
4. Exit polls only tell us about people who voted. It doesn't take into account those who did not vote.
5. "One more category from the exit poll that is worthy of notice is the “Best description of vote.” While the majority of Democratic voters said, “I strongly favor my candidate” (53 percent), only 42 percent of Republicans said the same. The majority of Republicans said the best description of their vote was “I dislike the other candidates” (51 percent)."

Now, you and I could argue about which candidate was the more honorable, the more Christian, and a more decent candidate, but a majority of Republicans had more problems with Hillary than Donald. That doesn't mean Evangelicals did not have problems with Trump. My guess is 99.9% did have problems. Now, if you believe that Hillary is a most honorable, Christian decent candidate who had political polices that matched yours, I could see why you might vote for Hillary. I did not care for either and that is why I went third party.

I can tell you that my wife is also a Christian conservative and she voted for Trump. To this day, she cringes at many of Trumps tweets and the rhetoric he uses in verbal communications. She says if a man tried to grope her, she would punch him and warn him not to try that again. She would not report it then nor now.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/no-the-majority-of-american-evangelicals-did-not-vote-for-trump/

One more thing about views of the election. While I voted for third party, I am still a Republican and will probably remain one since they are closer to my beliefs than the Democrats. I believe Trump's election is partially due to the Obama Administration and what happened then with regards to health care, terrorism, and illegal immigration. I further wonder how many crossed party lines to vote for Trump and how many had been sitting on the sidelines for years and didn't vote until they voted for Trump. I believe this election was about certain Americans fed up with the system and wanted change and they felt that Trump was the Trump agent and Hillary wasn't.
Click to expand...

Trump is in the Oval office because 81% of Evangelicals in this country voted for him. You're not going to blame Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton for that one. They didn't choose Trump for you, there were 16 other GOP candidates in the primary. They flew right over several more competent qualified candidates to pick the most vile, vulgar, angriest one of the bunch.

White male pastors all over this country were singing Trump's praises. Even in the New life Church in Colorado springs a pastor was telling his very large congregation. You don't need to like Trump--just vote for him. They did just that.

Even after this came out.



00-matt-wuerker-were-sticking-with-trump-2016.jpg


Now they OWN it. When judgement day comes along--they're going to have a lot of explaining to do.

Hillary Clinton is a devout Methodist and had she been saying the things that Trump was saying--you same people would have been out rioting in the streets and demanding a public hanging.

There was nothing more ABHORRENT to me--than to watch Trump drag up several women from Bill Clinton's affairs and then seat them front & center during a debate in front of his wife Hillary Clinton, the real victim of his affairs.

While Evangelical Republicans cheered that on and laughed about it.
 
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Oreo said:
Trump is in the Oval office because 81% of Evangelicals in this country voted for him. You're not going to blame Obama, Hillary Clinton for that one. There were 17 GOP candidates in this race--they didn't choose Trump for you. They flew right over several more competent qualified candidates to pick the most vile vulgar one of the bunch.
Click to expand...

There you go again. I showed why the 81% was incorrect, but you ignored that. Second, you are blaming me once again for something I did not do. I never said I blamed Obama or Hillary for anything. Why do you continue to make up what other people say? I offered you assistance on how to better word your postings, but that was to no avail. Nobody chose Trump for me. Each person is responsible for his or her vote. I am not responsible for those who voted for Trump, or for Hillary, as far as that goes.

Oreo said:
White male pastors all over this country were singing Trump's praises. Even in the New life Church in Colorado springs a pastor was telling his very large congregation. You don't need to like Trump--just vote for him. They did just that.
Click to expand...

Oh my goodness! Here you go again! My pastor is a male and he is white. He never even mentioned, never hinted, never suggested anything about who we should vote for. If one did in Colorado, so be it, but mine never did and I would guess that most didn't. You are all over the board in your messaging. I have to say that you sound like an Atheistic Liberal. We know you support killing innocent unborn human lives. Perhaps, you may want to be more concerned about yourself than others when judgment day comes. Watch out for that stone throwing stuff too. It might come back to bite you. Now go and sin no more. :2razz:
 
Oreo said:
How could 81% of Evangelicals cast a vote for a man with no honor, no respect, no dignity, no decency and the only loyality he has ever shown to anyone was to himself and Vladimir Putin? How do Evangelicals stand up in support of a man that has been accused repeatedly of being a child molestor?
Click to expand...

You may want to take a look at Christianity Today, Beth Moore, Russel Moore, Al Mohler, and others. Evangelical Christianity (as opposed to "the identity group of people who claim to be Evangelical") split over Trump, and pretty much repeated the same over Moore.
 
Oreo said:
There was nothing more ABHORRENT to me--than to watch Trump drag up several women from Bill Clinton's affairs and then seat them front & center during a debate in front of his wife Hillary Clinton, the real victim of his affairs.

While Evangelical Republicans cheered that on and laughed about it.
Click to expand...

Clintons penicillen resistant syphilis.jpg

Hillary was an enabler and a cellulite, crooked gasbag in her own right.

Those two deserve to be in jail
 
cpwill said:
You may want to take a look at Christianity Today, Beth Moore, Russel Moore, Al Mohler, and others. Evangelical Christianity (as opposed to "the identity group of people who claim to be Evangelical") split over Trump, and pretty much repeated the same over Moore.
Click to expand...

Not at 81% they did. A split is 50%. 81% is the overwhelming majority of Republican Evangelicals voted for Trump, and is probably about the same amount that voted for Roy Moore on Tuesday night.
 
Many but not all Christian conservatives were able to convince themselves that Roy Moore was innocent of sexual offenses, just as I was able to convince myself that Bill Clinton was innocent.

Do I still believe that Bill Clinton was innocent? I am not as confident as I was previously.

Christian conservatives are desperate for any political support that is offered to them. Ronald Reagan gave them rhetorical support while doing nothing to advance their agenda. They know that the United States is becoming more liberal on social issues.
 
SmartCat said:
Many but not all Christian conservatives were able to convince themselves that Roy Moore was innocent of sexual offenses, just as I was able to convince myself that Bill Clinton was innocent.

Do I still believe that Bill Clinton was innocent? I am not as confident as I was previously.

Christian conservatives are desperate for any political support that is offered to them. Ronald Reagan gave them rhetorical support while doing nothing to advance their agenda. They know that the United States is becoming more liberal on social issues.
Click to expand...

True--but social issues are in the hands of the U.S. Supreme court and no one else. Did everyone forget this simple prayer:

"Dear Lord grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Ronald Reagan, G.H.W. Bush, G.W. Bush avoided social issues, abortion, like the black plague. Of course they were pro-life but they didn't campaign on it. Presidential debates in those days, the question never came up if someone was pro-life or pro-choice--it wasn't an issue for Presidential candidates or any political campaign for that matter.

Their focus was only on Government issues--(things that they could actually do something about.) Abortion didn't hit the political platform until 2012--then Republican candidates were playing patty feet with Republican Evangelicals and campaigning on it--(for nothing more than donations and votes.) These candidates were making all kinds of promises to them--including Ted Cruz & Rand Paul actually promising a "personhood bill" as an amendment to the U.S. Constitution when they were Presidential candidates in 2016.--:lol:

To get a Constitutional amendment changed, repealed or added to the Constitution--requires a 2/3's vote of the Senate, a 2/3's vote in the house, and then it has to be ratified by 38 state legistures. IOW--never going to happen. But they'll make those kind of campaign promises for that large voting block.

So it not necessarily all Evangelicals--opportunistic politicians also played a hand in this.
 
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Oreo said:
You've tried and you have failed miserably. The only thing you have done is awoken a sleeping giant that will be coming for anyone with an R behind their names in 2018.

170121211838-28-womens-march-dc-exlarge-169.jpg

Woman's march the day after Trump was inaugurated, Washington D.C. This was going on in every state, not just D.C. For more pictures go to this link
Woman's march pictures | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

This is the result of the Evangelical wing of the Republican party trying to challenge Roe v Wade, a 46 year old already settled U.S. Supreme Court decision, on a political platform.

Niel Gorsuch--Trump's pick for the U.S. Supreme court stated during Senate confirmation hearings--that Roe v Wade is precedent in the U.S. Constitution, meaning set in stone to you.


Gorsuch to Feinstein: Abortion ruling is 'precedent' | Fox News

As I stated--state Abortion laws that governors sign into law are immediately overturned by Federal District courts. Personhood bills have failed miserably on ballots across this country, including in my state of Colorado, even though 3 attempts were made. If by some miracle it were ever to pass a Federal District court would overrule it immediately.
Personhood goes down in Colorado: Voters say no to Amendment 67.
https://www.indystar.com/story/news...ortion-restrictions-into-law-prayer/82225890/
Federal judge blocks Indiana abortion law signed by Pence

When Republican governors sign state abortion laws, they are in effect are putting the taxpayers of their states at risk for class action lawsuits.

Mary Fallin the Republican governor of Oklahoma refused to sign an abortion law, citing she knew it would be overruled immediately.


https://www.law360.com/articles/798988/okla-gov-won-t-sign-unconstitutional-abortion-bill

The best way to address abortion is through education. An abortion costs $1200 to $1700 depending on the state you live in. Taxpayer dollars cannot be used to fund abortions. All states have their own laws regarding late term abortions, some more strict than others--usually 20 weeks, some less than that.
Click to expand...


I don't care how many governors had signed up! Or, how huge the rallies are!
You're missing the point.


Like I've said......if laws can be changed, there's always the possibility.
It may not happen overnight - or it may not happen at all - the point is, we keep trying.



Even if the laws will never change - the fact that we're talking about this, is knocking some sense into some confused women - and there are women who change their minds about killing their babies!
To some of us, those are small victories! A baby saved is a life saved!
Two lives are actually saved, after all....we hear of mothers who'd been shattered by guilt,
after having abortions.





A Christian, imho, doesn't conform to something that's evil. "If you can't lick em, join 'em," does not apply. It shouldn't apply!

Christians aren't supposed to conform to the ways of this world......
......... what more, when we're talking about things that go directly against the Bible.


Romans 12
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.


God's will is not determined by popularity! It's non-negotiable!




Yes, we're supposed to submit to authorities, or the law of the land.
However, it's also a given right in this land, to cast our vote! In fact, as a good citizen.....
we are requited to practice that right!




Abortion may be the main reason why Evangelicals support Trump, but it's not the only reason.
The freedom to practice our religion, is another good reason.

Christians shouldn't be penalized for following their conscience.
 
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Did you ever really call yourself that?
 
Oreo said:
Not at 81% they did. A split is 50%. 81% is the overwhelming majority of Republican Evangelicals voted for Trump, and is probably about the same amount that voted for Roy Moore on Tuesday night.
Click to expand...
IIRC, checking that number against "people who attend Church once or more a week" v "people who tell the pollster they identify as X" gives you a more complete picture. Lots of folks claim Christianity as a cultural identity.
 
SmartCat said:
Many but not all Christian conservatives were able to convince themselves that Roy Moore was innocent of sexual offenses, just as I was able to convince myself that Bill Clinton was innocent.
Click to expand...

Yup. For most folks, logic performs a justification role, vice a deciding one. We have the result we need to be true, and we invest considerable mental effort figuring out ways to justify thinking it....

Do I still believe that Bill Clinton was innocent? I am not as confident as I was previously.
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.....and once they do, it is very hard to get them off that stance. New information that contradicts it can actually harden their resolve. Typically we only change our minds when the emotional need to hold the position changes.

If Jones hadn't been such a historical extremist on abortion, for example, I think many fewer in Alabama would have felt obliged to make the effort to come up with reasons the accusations against Moore were fake.

For another example; your journey here is typical. Many Democrats are now discovering that maybe Bill really could have been a predator.... now that it is politically convenient to do so, though it's still good you are making it, and aware of it.

Christian conservatives are desperate for any political support that is offered to them. Ronald Reagan gave them rhetorical support while doing nothing to advance their agenda. They know that the United States is becoming more liberal on social issues.
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That, and they perceive (and not without reason) that half the body politic is now at least apathetically if not actively hostile to them. In my Church, there were only really two or three actual Trump Fans... but probably only a handful of folks who didn't vote for him. Everyone in the middle looked at things like Memories Pizza, thought "that could be me", and voted against the party that threatened them.


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