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You can’t be a good Christian and a good Democrat

Arguably one cannot be "of this world" at all and be a "good Christian".

So why stop at merely Democratic party membership?

imhoa
ymmv
 
Here's why this thread is nonsense.

Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research Center

Poll: Most Americans Say They're Christian - ABC News


As with all the "us poor, poor christians are under attack" threads, what's actually happening these days is some people are losing their cookies over the idea that christians can no longer make all the rules, for everyone, and expect everyone to just fall in line and obey it with blinders on.

The Horror. The Horror.

It's been proven without a doubt the GOP can't govern, and most of their policies are tired and old ideas that don't work. for proof just look at the mess of the GOP Admin and Congress.

So the GOP NEEDS bogeymen, the NEED to play the victim card. Whites are under attack, Christians are being attacked, the mean media hates us, and on and on. Trump proved that tactic works.
 
I don’t like making statements like this, but sadly I believe this is true now. And before we get into it...I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MORAL VIEWS OR ETHICS AND I’M NOT SAYING DEMOCRATS CANNOT BE CHRISTIAN.

There. Now that’s that is out of the way. I think there has been a shift in the Democrat Party. And I think it has come even within the past 10 years or so. And it kinda disturbs me. It disturbs me because the people who should care...don’t. They don’t even see it. In fact...they are so wrapped up in their politics that they don’t even recognize that they are doing it. And the reverse is not true in this case. You will not find this sentiment in the republican camp. So what am I saying specifically?

I think that modern democrats have so aligned themselves that many democrats do not believe they can reconcile their faith with their politics. To the point that it seems many democrats feel that being a Christian automatically means you can’t be a real democrat. It even means you are a republican and hold certain views that they find repugnant. And what has this lead to? An openly hostile atmosphere FROM the left against those who have faith. And now. It isn’t “all democrats,” but I feel more open hostility and discomfort if I’m in an open discussion and I mention I’m a Christian. You would think the party of “tolerance” would understand how wrong this is, but it seems to have gone over their head. Completely. You even have some who openly insult people just for having faith.

I personally think this has to do with the LGBT movement of course. That is a given. And many democrats failed to see that this divide...was even in churches. It didn’t just stop at the door. Personally? I’m ok with gay marriage. And gays. I don’t care. Doesn’t bother me. But because there was opposition and the right took up the stance and then the democrats hijacked the movement (once the objective was completed) and now we have the left attacking their enemy the “Christian right.” And it isn’t just about gay marriage now. Does anyone else feel the left has become openly hostile towards Christians (and to some extent Jews or other religions)? If not openly hostile...would you be willing to see more intolerant? That the Democrat Party has decided their views cannot coexist with a “good Christian” or a “good Jew” or a “good Muslim?”

If Roy Moore wins in Alabama today, this will have just blown up in your face.

And then I will tart a poll to see if the other forum members agree that you should change your forum name to Jokey Smurf.
 
I don’t like making statements like this, but sadly I believe this is true now. And before we get into it...I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MORAL VIEWS OR ETHICS AND I’M NOT SAYING DEMOCRATS CANNOT BE CHRISTIAN.

There. Now that’s that is out of the way. I think there has been a shift in the Democrat Party. And I think it has come even within the past 10 years or so. And it kinda disturbs me. It disturbs me because the people who should care...don’t. They don’t even see it. In fact...they are so wrapped up in their politics that they don’t even recognize that they are doing it. And the reverse is not true in this case. You will not find this sentiment in the republican camp. So what am I saying specifically?

I think that modern democrats have so aligned themselves that many democrats do not believe they can reconcile their faith with their politics. To the point that it seems many democrats feel that being a Christian automatically means you can’t be a real democrat. It even means you are a republican and hold certain views that they find repugnant. And what has this lead to? An openly hostile atmosphere FROM the left against those who have faith. And now. It isn’t “all democrats,” but I feel more open hostility and discomfort if I’m in an open discussion and I mention I’m a Christian. You would think the party of “tolerance” would understand how wrong this is, but it seems to have gone over their head. Completely. You even have some who openly insult people just for having faith.

I personally think this has to do with the LGBT movement of course. That is a given. And many democrats failed to see that this divide...was even in churches. It didn’t just stop at the door. Personally? I’m ok with gay marriage. And gays. I don’t care. Doesn’t bother me. But because there was opposition and the right took up the stance and then the democrats hijacked the movement (once the objective was completed) and now we have the left attacking their enemy the “Christian right.” And it isn’t just about gay marriage now. Does anyone else feel the left has become openly hostile towards Christians (and to some extent Jews or other religions)? If not openly hostile...would you be willing to see more intolerant? That the Democrat Party has decided their views cannot coexist with a “good Christian” or a “good Jew” or a “good Muslim?”

What's a problem is not Christianity, but using your religion to advance a political agenda. And more and more, that's what many people who call themselves "Christians" in this country are tending to do. And that's where the hostility comes. In that sense, it's not just modern Democrats who have a problem with Christianity. That hostility has been there since the founding of this country:

" During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution...In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not."
-James Madison

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
-Thomas Paine
 
Wow. That is a profoundly ignorant and ill-informed post. There are innumerable democrats and leftists of faith.

And 'democrat party'? Never heard of it. But if you mean the 'Democratic Party', then perhaps you'd be intersted in speaking with a one Barak Obama and, no, the party has not decided what you're claiming it's decided.

Could you be any more transparent?



So we have a pedophile republican running for office as a devout Christian with rnc support and it's do that can not be Christian?
 
What's a problem is not Christianity, but using your religion to advance a political agenda. And more and more, that's what many people who call themselves "Christians" in this country are tending to do. And that's where the hostility comes. In that sense, it's not just modern Democrats who have a problem with Christianity. That hostility has been there since the founding of this country:

Great point :)
 
If Roy Moore wins in Alabama today, this will have just blown up in your face.

And then I will tart a poll to see if the other forum members agree that you should change your forum name to Jokey Smurf.

I don’t care one bit about Roy Moore or the people of Alabama. I fail to see how this has any relevance to the topic.
 
Sort of wrong. But sort of right. You are correct. You don’t need to be anti gay to be a Christian (I’m not). And that is something I don’t think many democrats recognize. And in fact...I might argue they even feel that being Christians means you HAVE to be anti gay and that there is no other options. And I think it is if not directly...then still certainly partially...the fault of republicans for politicizing gay marriage.

If Christianity wants to change how they are perceived by the public, that's up to them. They are the ones trying to have it both ways.

The Democrats aren't in charge of properly interpreting Christianity any more than the Republicans set Christian policy.
 
I completely agree about broad labeling. And that is what I’m addressing I suppose. And I will stipulate again...I don’t think democrats can’t be Christian. I feel that there are more “broad labeling” democrats that feel Christianity is...or someone’s faith...should come second to their politics.
You keep stating your defence against accusations of generalisation but you continue to generalise, talking about what “the left”, “the right”, Christians, Democrats or the Democrat Party do. I’m sure it’s not intentional, it’s sadly become the standard language of modern politics but that’s all the more reason to work against it.

Instead of starting discussions on groups of people and what they do, why not talk about actions, good or bad, and their consequences. Referencing to direct examples of individuals doing them should be encouraged (after all, everything in this thread is about what you say people are doing; you’ve provided zero evidence) but any kind of linking to generic groups should be avoided.

The reality is that regardless of how diverse our opinions and world views, we’re all very, very similar. We all think in similar ways, we’re all subject to similar tendencies and we all have similar flaws. Most things we object to seeing others do we’ll have been guilty of something similar ourselves. Focusing on the “crime” rather than the “offender” makes it more likely that we’ll recognise that (even if we’re not ready to admit it to anyone else :) ).
 
If Christianity wants to change how they are perceived by the public, that's up to them. They are the ones trying to have it both ways.

The Democrats aren't in charge of properly interpreting Christianity any more than the Republicans set Christian policy.

___________
obama.jpg
 
If Christianity wants to change how they are perceived by the public, that's up to them. They are the ones trying to have it both ways.

This is the mentality to which I refer.

Are you aware that “Christianity” encompasses hundreds of denominations and not all hold that anti gay view?

The Democrats aren't in charge of properly interpreting Christianity any more than the Republicans set Christian policy.

That is point. It isn’t the job of democrats. I would argue that that is exactly what is being done. Not all Christians hold the same views.
 
I don’t like making statements like this, but sadly I believe this is true now. And before we get into it...I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MORAL VIEWS OR ETHICS AND I’M NOT SAYING DEMOCRATS CANNOT BE CHRISTIAN.

There. Now that’s that is out of the way. I think there has been a shift in the Democrat Party. And I think it has come even within the past 10 years or so. And it kinda disturbs me. It disturbs me because the people who should care...don’t. They don’t even see it. In fact...they are so wrapped up in their politics that they don’t even recognize that they are doing it. And the reverse is not true in this case. You will not find this sentiment in the republican camp. So what am I saying specifically?

I think that modern democrats have so aligned themselves that many democrats do not believe they can reconcile their faith with their politics. To the point that it seems many democrats feel that being a Christian automatically means you can’t be a real democrat. It even means you are a republican and hold certain views that they find repugnant. And what has this lead to? An openly hostile atmosphere FROM the left against those who have faith. And now. It isn’t “all democrats,” but I feel more open hostility and discomfort if I’m in an open discussion and I mention I’m a Christian. You would think the party of “tolerance” would understand how wrong this is, but it seems to have gone over their head. Completely. You even have some who openly insult people just for having faith.

I personally think this has to do with the LGBT movement of course. That is a given. And many democrats failed to see that this divide...was even in churches. It didn’t just stop at the door. Personally? I’m ok with gay marriage. And gays. I don’t care. Doesn’t bother me. But because there was opposition and the right took up the stance and then the democrats hijacked the movement (once the objective was completed) and now we have the left attacking their enemy the “Christian right.” And it isn’t just about gay marriage now. Does anyone else feel the left has become openly hostile towards Christians (and to some extent Jews or other religions)? If not openly hostile...would you be willing to see more intolerant? That the Democrat Party has decided their views cannot coexist with a “good Christian” or a “good Jew” or a “good Muslim?”

Wow...thanks Archie....Wonder what Jesus would say about Christianity? He would probably be amazed that as a Jew he was worshiped by so many people; especially in the South that do not like Jews. Or maybe he would find it atrocious that the morals of people worshiping him were so skewed that they felt that they could sin over and over again and have Jesus just wash away their sins. I always thought the message of Jesus was to treat people with compassion and with the respect you wish to be treated. Nobody is perfect but some folks reach higher than others
 
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I’m really not talking about aggressive atheists. I actually had a long talk with my girlfriend last night about it too (she is a democrat). She even sees it. There is almost a sneering and a looking down the nose if someone says they are a Christian. I’m very surprised that you don’t see it. And it isn’t just “evangelicals.” I get it all the time. And I am PC USA. Which allows gay marriage and memebership. But people still don’t try and distinguish. They assume that a Christian must be the anti gay marriage and gay bashing type.

I trust that you've had that experience, but I haven't. I live in WV though, so most people are religious here. It is almost never brought up in a derogatory way.
 
Apparently this isn't the place to have a discussion about this, since you're being attacked for even raising the question. Sorry.
 
OK. There's plenty of Roman Catholic Dems though. Millions actually. So I don't know where you are going with your statement.

Then the question is, can you be a Democratic and disagree with some of their most pushed agendas? Such as abortion, gay rights, etc.
 
This is the mentality to which I refer.

Are you aware that “Christianity” encompasses hundreds of denominations and not all hold that anti gay view?

Let's pretend I didn't know that. Is it my problem that Christianity can't decide who it is and what it wants, or that it tries to be everything to everyone?


That is point. It isn’t the job of democrats. I would argue that that is exactly what is being done. Not all Christians hold the same views.

You know there's a few different kinds of Democrats also?

Christianity is in charge of their own marketing. If some Democrats brand them a certain way that they don't like, then it's up to Christianity to sell a better counter message.

My own read on the issue is that Christianity wants to have it both ways. They want to broadcast tolerance without alienating their least intolerant members.
 
Then the question is, can you be a Democratic and disagree with some of their most pushed agendas? Such as abortion, gay rights, etc.

Actually my reply to you was asking why you said this:

So while I doubt you will find a Roman Catholic Democrat,

Which is NOT true...

Anyway as for your current question, I don't see why not.. 98% of so Roman Catholic women practice birth control, even though The Church preaches against using BC. Same with being a Dem. I was a Republican for 30+ years, I'm an Indy now but now mostly vote Dem. But I don't agree with all of the Dems issues.

Lets face it, a LARGE percentage of Republicans care much more about social issues like gay marriage than they do fiscal issues(a past stalwart of the GOP)

You can come back and say abortion is a religious issue, but then you'd have to explain why for many in the GOP are for the death penalty, torture, and our military running around to globe bombing and killing at will.

There's plenty of hypocrisy on both sides. But, IMO, when it comes to religion and politics, Conservatives are more hypocritical.
 
I think the problem is what you might consider a 'Christian' to be. What I mean is there are different beliefs in different denominations of Christianity. Roman Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, Methodist and Evangelist. I know I'm forgetting some, but you get the point. The word Christian is the overall 'name'.

So while I doubt you will find a Roman Catholic Democrat, you will in some of the other denominations.

One well-known example of someone who is a practicing Catholic and very "progressive" is Martin Sheen. I generally disagree with his political views, but I have always admired his earnest effort to live out his faith.
 
Then the question is, can you be a Democratic and disagree with some of their most pushed agendas? Such as abortion, gay rights, etc.

I think most normal people have no problem doing that because what a persons person believes are do not have to be their political believes. I cant speak for everybody but I find it VERY easy to separate any religious beliefs from political beliefs because they are in fact separate. IMO a person who cant separate them probably has serious problems with this country and also should never run for office.

But pointing that out gets into a whole other problem. The people that want to push their feelings on others. There are plenty of things im sure i could come up with that personally im against but would NEVER support in politics because they go against the freedom and rights of this country.

IMO only nutters have problems separating the two or people that dont care about the country/freedom and rights.
 
One well-known example of someone who is a practicing Catholic and very "progressive" is Martin Sheen. I generally disagree with his political views, but I have always admired his earnest effort to live out his faith.

I'm not doubting you can. Many seem to. I was using it as an example to the OP regarding how there are many denominations of Christians, and that not all of them are as strict in their beliefs as say, the Roman Catholics are. If you are a strict Catholic, I don't see how you can hold Democratic views as well.
 
Actually my reply to you was asking why you said this:



Which is NOT true...

Anyway as for your current question, I don't see why not.. 98% of so Roman Catholic women practice birth control, even though The Church preaches against using BC. Same with being a Dem. I was a Republican for 30+ years, I'm an Indy now but now mostly vote Dem. But I don't agree with all of the Dems issues.

Lets face it, a LARGE percentage of Republicans care much more about social issues like gay marriage than they do fiscal issues(a past stalwart of the GOP)

You can come back and say abortion is a religious issue, but then you'd have to explain why for many in the GOP are for the death penalty, torture, and our military running around to globe bombing and killing at will.

There's plenty of hypocrisy on both sides. But, IMO, when it comes to religion and politics, Conservatives are more hypocritical.

Then in my opinion, they are not true Roman Catholics. I don't think you should be able to pick and choose which of the religious doctrines you want to follow. It's this hypocrisy that made me distrust religion for the most part. I was raised Catholic, but do not follow it, or any religion any longer. And yes, conservatives that preach the religious doctrines while having affairs or diddling little boys are part of the hypocrisy that I turned away from.
 
I think most normal people have no problem doing that because what a persons person believes are do not have to be their political believes. I cant speak for everybody but I find it VERY easy to separate any religious beliefs from political beliefs because they are in fact separate. IMO a person who cant separate them probably has serious problems with this country and also should never run for office.

But pointing that out gets into a whole other problem. The people that want to push their feelings on others. There are plenty of things im sure i could come up with that personally im against but would NEVER support in politics because they go against the freedom and rights of this country.

IMO only nutters have problems separating the two or people that dont care about the country/freedom and rights.

And in some cases I agree with you. In others I don't. Just my opinion and how I view it.
 
I’m really not talking about aggressive atheists. I actually had a long talk with my girlfriend last night about it too (she is a democrat). She even sees it. There is almost a sneering and a looking down the nose if someone says they are a Christian. I’m very surprised that you don’t see it. And it isn’t just “evangelicals.” I get it all the time. And I am PC USA. Which allows gay marriage and memebership. But people still don’t try and distinguish. They assume that a Christian must be the anti gay marriage and gay bashing type.

Heya, Jack.

I think I'll reply to this comment, as I think it's what you were talking about, correct me if I'm wrong. Your opening was a little inflammatory, which is why I think you're taking a beating here...let's see if I can answer what you're actually asking.

As a left leaning Christian, I've felt the derision you're talking about. I have great friends, who think essentially the same way I do about most issues, who I have unfollowed or stopped talking religion with, because of how they discuss or mock or otherwise talk smack about my faith, in a way that can be unintentionally but extremely hurtful to me, because I don't feel I fit that description. I have felt let down by groups or individuals who I have supported, because their support for me didn't extend to respecting my individual and personal decision to have a faith. I think they also thought me more stupid. hehe... So, no, I wouldn't say you are alone in noticing this reception.

But, that being said, I don't blame them.

The damage that the religious right has done to the image (and execution) of Christianity in the US and elsewhere is immeasurable, and primarily to blame. So many of the Bible's teachings have been twisted or outright abandoned to accommodate bigotry, superiority, oppression, self preservation, and hate, which has become the generalization "the rest of us" get. While this doesn't seem fair, I think we have a responsibility to reign in those that do this under our umbrella, or flatly denounce them.

I remember hearing lots of folks saying "Ok, fine, only a small percentage of Muslims engage in terrorism, but why are the peaceful ones silent, why are they not doing something about their radicals". Why should we be held to any different standard?

I wouldn't say you can't be a "good" (what even is that...hehe...we're all sinners) Christian and a good Democrat. Rather, until we get our growing fringe - if you can even call it that anymore - under control, I think we can only be one at a time, out of respect and recognition of the damage others have done in our name. And given the fact that even Christ acknowledged, if not advocated for, a separation of Church and State, this shouldn't be a problem...
 
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