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Pakistan army called on to stop 'blasphemy' clashes in Islamabad

blarg said:
The protesting Islamists, from the hardline Tehreek-i-Labaik Ya Rasool Allah Party, want the law minister to be sacked for omitting a reference to the Prophet Muhammad in a new version of the electoral oath.
The minister has since apologised saying it was a clerical error.

Pakistan army called on to stop 'blasphemy' clashes in Islamabad - BBC News
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I didn't see an estimate of the number of protesters, but if 8,500 troops were needed, there must have been quite a mob. Anyway folks, nothing to see here. Just ordinary peace-loving people like you and me. They're just trying to live their lives, put food on the table like the rest of us. They're not interested in forcing their religion on anybody. Move along.
 
stevecanuck said:
I didn't see an estimate of the number of protesters, but if 8,500 troops were needed, there must have been quite a mob. Anyway folks, nothing to see here. Just ordinary peace-loving people like you and me. They're just trying to live their lives, put food on the table like the rest of us. They're not interested in forcing their religion on anybody. Move along.
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Obviously, we are witnesses to a turning point in human cultural evolution, where the myths of the past are at odds with the promise of a secular ( not "atheist, right wing imbeciles) future. I think that the realization is setting in with various brands of magical thinkers that their subjective superstitiins are no longer immune from criticism. The internet's free market of ideas has made it much more difficult for ideologies like Islam and Christianity to avoid the threat that freedom of conscience poses to the perpetuation of dogma. The old, tried and true, method of using violence to insist a lie into being is losing its effectiveness.

Religions like Islam are products of the past that will either change or fade out of relevance. In fact, it is their violent temper tantrums that have given them ANY advantage but that advantage has become a liability. Most people are tired of having to pretend that dumb **** is spirituality. It offers nothing to the future of our kind. We will never cure cancer with religion, never solve our energy crisis and never provide an answer to any of the existential threats to humanity and they know it.

Religion remains useful only as a sedative for the anxiety ridden and little else. As the true list of pros and cons is considered, the benefits of a magical worldview will prove themselves to be an expensive placebo rather than a valuable weapon against human weakness. I welcome this war of ideas for, as they say, the truth will set you free.
 
D_NATURED said:
Obviously, we are witnesses to a turning point in human cultural evolution, where the myths of the past are at odds with the promise of a secular ( not "atheist", right wing imbeciles) future. I think that the realization is setting in with various brands of magical thinkers that their subjective superstitions are no longer immune from criticism.
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Hence the violent, over-the-top, response. The promulgation of critical, independent thought is Islam's greatest threat, and it MUST be stopped. Some do it with threats and violence, while others such as Canada's Iqra Khalid, try to use the rule of law. They invent something called "Islamophobia", and then try to outlaw it because it "promotes potentially violent negativity towards an identifiable group (ie: Muslims)". Forget that the Qur'an calls for the outright subjugation of infidels. That fact must never be mentioned because pointing it out is "hateful".

Opps, hit the send button by mistake.
 
stevecanuck said:
Hence the violent, over-the-top, response. The promulgation of critical, independent thought is Islam's greatest threat, and it MUST be stopped. Some do it with threats and violence, while others such as Canada's Iqra Khalid, try to use the rule of law. They invent something called "Islamophobia", and then try to outlaw it because it "promotes potentially violent negativity towards an identifiable group (ie: Muslims)". Forget that the Qur'an calls for the outright subjugation of infidels. That fact must never be mentioned because pointing it out is "hateful".

Opps, hit the send button by mistake.
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I agree that we are not wise to subscribe to the muslim victimhood paradigm. Making the criticism of a subjective superstition a form of hate speech or something is profoundly stupid. I understand the desire to confront bigotry but the critics of religion, in general, are not bigots. Religions, despite their being cherished traditions for many, have existed for far too long without any responsibility to make sense. As your mention of the Koran's attitude toward "infidels" implies, there are enough excuses for violence that anyone could need to act out violently for god. Until we confront the reality of Islam, and EVERY other manifestation of magical thinking, labels like "Islamophobe" will seem a silly defense of a toxic tradition.

The answer, I think, is for opponents of Islam to also oppose other forms of spiritual retardation. It can't be a one-way street. We must, somehow, abandon the false assumption that believing in supernature is a credential of morality. It can't possibly be that, as morality is a thought process, not a tradition or a commandment. Now, I realize that we have evolved to rely on make believe when our reality is too much for us to bear but the irony of organized make believe being what makes our shared reality intolerable is an unforeseen twist.

The answer is to encourage a more personal spirituality and cease to empower organizations built upon fantasies to have a place at the table where a human future is planned. They are anachronisms who contribute nothing to our species and, in fact, are responsible for much of our past crimes. Let no idea, no matter how long in the making, no matter how entrenched in various cultures, exist unchallenged. Even if they call us islamophobes or christophobes, there must be no idea, no story and no person that is above honest scrutiny.
 
D_NATURED said:
The internet's free market of ideas has made it much more difficult for ideologies like Islam and Christianity to avoid the threat that freedom of conscience poses to the perpetuation of dogma.
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Further to the above, I see the internet affecting Islam in 3 ways:

1. It gives the faithful a world-wide audience to preach to. In that regard it helps promulgate dogma.
2. It gives doubting Muslims a chance to listen to dissenting voices, both within Islam and without.
3. It gives us infidel pig-dogs a way of exposing Islamic scripture and history for the ****-show that it is. Of course we have to endure the scorn of not only Muslims, but of their useful idiot apologists. But it's worth it. No number of ad hominem attacks will stop me from using the Qur'an to explain the atrocities committed by that segment of Islam that wants to return to the glory and gory days of the 7th century.

...As the true list of pros and cons is considered...
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.....doing so will be called Islamophobia (hence my signature).
 
stevecanuck said:
Further to the above, I see the internet affecting Islam in 3 ways:

1. It gives the faithful a world-wide audience to preach to. In that regard it helps promulgate dogma.
2. It gives doubting Muslims a chance to listen to dissenting voices, both within Islam and without.
3. It gives us infidel pig-dogs a way of exposing Islamic scripture and history for the ****-show that it is. Of course we have to endure the scorn of not only Muslims, but of their useful idiot apologists. But it's worth it. No number of ad hominem attacks will stop me from using the Qur'an to explain the atrocities committed by that segment of Islam that wants to return to the glory and gory days of the 7th century.



.....doing so will be called Islamophobia (hence my signature).
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Yeah, I was called an Islamophobe by an acquaintance once. It is, apparently, considered bad form to talk about the reality of Islam.

The way I see it, it's fair to define organizations based upon what they do. Islam is not a charity or a knowledge seeking endeavor, it's a propaganda engine for middle eastern based spiritual dogma, nothing more. Why is it wrong to say that? I think it's because it reduces their magical worldview to a very human one. It's the same reason that many christians refuse to believe in evolution, it takes their magic story away.
 
Oh please........have you been to Pakistan?

Extremist Islam is the mainstream islam there...........and in many of the nations of that region.

Mainstream Islam there today is where The Catholic church was during the Inquisition.

It has nothing to do with "religion" and everything to do with old men fearing the loss of power.
 
Polar Bum said:
Oh please........have you been to Pakistan?

Extremist Islam is the mainstream islam there...........and in many of the nations of that region.

Mainstream Islam there today is where The Catholic church was during the Inquisition.

It has nothing to do with "religion" and everything to do with old men fearing the loss of power.
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I disagree. I realize it would be great for a lot of people if the glaringly obvious religious component to Islamic extremism were just unanimously ignored, but I can't. The religious connection is the absolute ease with which magical god can excuse any behavior or irrational thought. When you compound that fact with the actual words of the Koran, to then pretend that religion, the organization defined by the book, has "nothing to do with" it, makes me feel like I'm being treated like a rube.

I try not to think ill of people without reason. I have found sufficient violence, misogyny and anti-intellectualism in Islam that I question the proponents of it. Islam is the past, desperately trying to stay relevant in a world that has seen a correlation between material success and the abandonment of theocracy, not just religion. There are as many young men as old fighting to suppress progress, to my great dismay.

I do not argue that every Muslim is unworthy of this modern world, that is, ultimately, THEIR argument. It is the nature of certain religions that they oppose even positive changes that don't comport with their pre-conceived spiritual identity. The long, slow, cruel struggle toward marriage rights for gay people was a prime example. Religion works as hard to oppress others as it does to liberate itself. I've never been to Pakistan but they are not the only country where fanatics are demanding the special right to act against the interests of the nations where they live, all in the name of religion.

Religion fuels the fire, it isn't the fire. Yet, we humans must be vigilant against our potential for allowing our righteous desires to become instigations to murder. In that regard, Islam is failing and so is Christianity.
 
D_NATURED said:
Religion fuels the fire, it isn't the fire.
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And here we diverge. The one thing that the secular West just can't seem to wrap it's collective head around is that for devout Muslims, it very much IS all about their religion.
 
stevecanuck said:
And here we diverge. The one thing that the secular West just can't seem to wrap it's collective head around is that for devout Muslims, it very much IS all about their religion.
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It's not fair to make that judgement while their leadership hold them captive to their ridiculous Allah. If the consequences of Atheism in the US were death, I'd play the part of the religious fanatic.

I worked briefly with a guy from Iraq who told me that atheism is not an option there because your family and your religious communities are your only protection from those of others.

I know this fact leads us to a connundrum whereby, if nobody is brave enough to change the culture it remains stagnant. Yet, how can you ask people to change when the last guy who tried it got murdered?

Personally, I keep hopeful that the internet will offer them avenues toward an evolved Islam that they would never be given otherwise.

I agree that the West has failed by allowing them to form religiously isolated communitoes within our own. The idea of allowing foreign cultures and faiths to remain separate from the ones they rely upon for structure and protection is retarded and counter productive.
 
D_NATURED said:
It's not fair to make that judgement while their leadership hold them captive to their ridiculous Allah. If the consequences of Atheism in the US were death, I'd play the part of the religious fanatic.
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They're not being held captive by their leadership. It's self-imposed slavishness. Your statement is exactly what I meant when I said Westerners don't understand the Muslim world.

I worked briefly with a guy from Iraq who told me that atheism is not an option there because your family and your religious communities are your only protection from those of others.

I know this fact leads us to a connundrum whereby, if nobody is brave enough to change the culture it remains stagnant. Yet, how can you ask people to change when the last guy who tried it got murdered?

Personally, I keep hopeful that the internet will offer them avenues toward an evolved Islam that they would never be given otherwise.

I agree that the West has failed by allowing them to form religiously isolated communitoes within our own. The idea of allowing foreign cultures and faiths to remain separate from the ones they rely upon for structure and protection is retarded and counter productive.
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Doubtless there are Muslims who are closet atheists, and for every reason you state, and they do indeed have to remain in the closet to retain their heads. Based on my experience, I believe them to be in the minority.
 
stevecanuck said:
I didn't see an estimate of the number of protesters, but if 8,500 troops were needed, there must have been quite a mob. Anyway folks, nothing to see here. Just ordinary peace-loving people like you and me. They're just trying to live their lives, put food on the table like the rest of us. They're not interested in forcing their religion on anybody. Move along.
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Who's militaries are where again?
 
D_NATURED said:
It's not fair to make that judgement while their leadership hold them captive to their ridiculous Allah. If the consequences of Atheism in the US were death, I'd play the part of the religious fanatic.

I worked briefly with a guy from Iraq who told me that atheism is not an option there because your family and your religious communities are your only protection from those of others.

I know this fact leads us to a connundrum whereby, if nobody is brave enough to change the culture it remains stagnant. Yet, how can you ask people to change when the last guy who tried it got murdered?

Personally, I keep hopeful that the internet will offer them avenues toward an evolved Islam that they would never be given otherwise.

I agree that the West has failed by allowing them to form religiously isolated communitoes within our own. The idea of allowing foreign cultures and faiths to remain separate from the ones they rely upon for structure and protection is retarded and counter productive.
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It would be useful to review the early history of North America at the time when euros brought their christianity here, after reviewing the history of what happened to the tribes of Europe at the hands of murderous christian zealots.
 
stevecanuck said:
I didn't see an estimate of the number of protesters, but if 8,500 troops were needed, there must have been quite a mob. Anyway folks, nothing to see here. Just ordinary peace-loving people like you and me. They're just trying to live their lives, put food on the table like the rest of us. They're not interested in forcing their religion on anybody. Move along.
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"Onward Islam sol-oldierrrrs marching as to war..."
 
stevecanuck said:
They're not being held captive by their leadership. It's self-imposed slavishness. Your statement is exactly what I meant when I said Westerners don't understand the Muslim world.



Doubtless there are Muslims who are closet atheists, and for every reason you state, and they do indeed have to remain in the closet to retain their heads. Based on my experience, I believe them to be in the minority.
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Your two replies sort of contradict each other. The first response claims that they're creating their own misery, the second agrees that they are unable to oppose it without being killed.

As you know, I'm no fan of Islam. However, I don't for one second believe that those under its authority are all deserving of oppression. Islam evolved to be what it is today. It has not always been the axis of ignorance and violence.
 
Fenton Lum said:
It would be useful to review the early history of North America at the time when euros brought their christianity here, after reviewing the history of what happened to the tribes of Europe at the hands of murderous christian zealots.
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Christianity has every ounce the bloody potential of Islam. What keeps them "honest" today is our secular democracy. Americans don't have to fear being murdered when they criticize Christianity in the same way that Muslims abroad do. Muslim culture never had an enlightenment. The average Muslim sees no distinction between faith and politics. Islam instructs their politics as much as their religious behavior.

Frankly, I'm disgusted that ANY of these ancient superstitions have survived to create such disharmony among modern people. If I had my way, they would ALL be challenged to prove they aren't obstructing human intellectual and cultural progress before they could operate tax free.

In a sense, the enlightenment value of "believe whatever crazy **** you like" has left the door open to zealots of all flavors. For too long it has been considered taboo to mention that invisible sky men are just make believe. I'm not even looking to have that fight, though. I would, however, like to see the faithful begin to respect ME enough not to ask me to believe absolutely anything without evidence. No matter what choice THEY make, I don't want to have reality poisoned by their fantasies. What needs to change for the face of faith to become less stupid is for everyone, faithful and faithless alike, to demand it not just for the other guy.

So far, introspection remains lost on those entitled to believe.
 
D_NATURED said:
Your two replies sort of contradict each other. The first response claims that they're creating their own misery, the second agrees that they are unable to oppose it without being killed.
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I don't see the contradiction. I'm simply saying that although there is a minority who would rather not be ruled by Islam, my experience is that most do live their lives based on Islamic tenets. They don't see it as "misery" at all. To them, this life as an audition to see who gets into heaven. After all, what is 80ish years of corporeal existence when compared to an eternity of bliss in God's whore house in the sky?

As you know, I'm no fan of Islam. However, I don't for one second believe that those under its authority are all deserving of oppression.
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Not sure what you mean there.

Islam evolved to be what it is today. It has not always been the axis of ignorance and violence.
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Islam was finalized before Mohamed died in 632. We know that because the Qur'an says so. People have since come along and changed the manner of adherence to it, but no, Islam has NOT evolved. The Qur'an exists for the sole purpose of defining Islam, and it's a done deal.
 
stevecanuck said:
I don't see the contradiction. I'm simply saying that although there is a minority who would rather not be ruled by Islam, my experience is that most do live their lives based on Islamic tenets. They don't see it as "misery" at all. To them, this life as an audition to see who gets into heaven. After all, what is 80ish years of corporeal existence when compared to an eternity of bliss in God's whore house in the sky?
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It seems that a life of faith is inherently arbitrary. I find it hugely ironic that the refugees from Syria don't just accept that their lives are crappy because Allah decided it. For them to move to the west for safety is to, in some way, deprive their god of his earthly punishment. The Christians do the same thing. When a tornado comes through and wipes out the whole town, they thank god for saving the survivors rather than admitting that He just decided that many of the town's children should be orphans or that parents should be childless. There is no logical consistency when faith is the answer.

Islam was finalized before Mohamed died in 632. We know that because the Qur'an says so. People have since come along and changed the manner of adherence to it, but no, Islam has NOT evolved. The Qur'an exists for the sole purpose of defining Islam, and it's a done deal.
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I tend to believe that faith is usually relative to desperation. Once people are no longer desperately hungry or sick or in danger of dying from sectarian violence, their faith relaxes, as it should. Within just a generation or two of moving to the US, many people from cultures profoundly faithful find they need it less and less in daily life.

My hope, any way, is that as the conditions for human desperation are mitigated by positive cultural shifts, faith will find itself mellowing out. I would hope that those who are no longer as desperate would concede some of their zealotry to a more stable civil environment. Those who don't should be deported.
 
D_NATURED said:
It seems that a life of faith is inherently arbitrary. I find it hugely ironic that the refugees from Syria don't just accept that their lives are crappy because Allah decided it. For them to move to the west for safety is to, in some way, deprive their god of his earthly punishment. The Christians do the same thing. When a tornado comes through and wipes out the whole town, they thank god for saving the survivors rather than admitting that He just decided that many of the town's children should be orphans or that parents should be childless. There is no logical consistency when faith is the answer.



I tend to believe that faith is usually relative to desperation. Once people are no longer desperately hungry or sick or in danger of dying from sectarian violence, their faith relaxes, as it should. Within just a generation or two of moving to the US, many people from cultures profoundly faithful find they need it less and less in daily life.

My hope, any way, is that as the conditions for human desperation are mitigated by positive cultural shifts, faith will find itself mellowing out. I would hope that those who are no longer as desperate would concede some of their zealotry to a more stable civil environment. Those who don't should be deported.
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The only quibble I have with your reasoning has to do with faith being relative to desperation. Devout Muslims are slaves to their god (abdullah literally means slave of God) regardless of their personal situation.

Btw, there are 99 names that start with Abdul (slave of the....) that are followed by one of the names of God, so there are 99 ways of saying it. Abdullah is just one.
 
D_NATURED said:
Christianity has every ounce the bloody potential of Islam. What keeps them "honest" today is our secular democracy.
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This is where we seem to disagree most. That statement is just not true. There are 2 factors to consider: 1) Qur'an and Hadiths vs. Bible, and 2) the example set by Mohamed vs. that of the fictional character called Jesus.

I have to leave shortly, so I'll leave it there for now. Details to follow in a day or two.
 
stevecanuck said:
This is where we seem to disagree most. That statement is just not true. There are 2 factors to consider: 1) Qur'an and Hadiths vs. Bible, and 2) the example set by Mohamed vs. that of the fictional character called Jesus.

I have to leave shortly, so I'll leave it there for now. Details to follow in a day or two.
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When the puritan christians came to the new world, they were as brutal as modern Muslims can be. Drowning or burning women and imposing strict religious rules of conduct were just part of their repertoire.

They, like the Muslims had a book to guide their violence but, in truth, you don't need one if your god empowers you to magically create the kind of world that's friendly to dogma, patriarchy, wilful ignorance and the sacrifice of the "wicked". All of those things apply as much to the Christian tradition as the Muslim one.

I'm not sure why we consistently disagree about this point that Christians are as bad. I don't see how my general distaste for magical thinking is an affront to your personal problem with just one flavor of it. I don't like Islam either but I can't separate one group of fleas as worse than another based upon which dog they infest.
 
D_NATURED said:
When the puritan christians came to the new world, they were as brutal as modern Muslims can be. Drowning or burning women and imposing strict religious rules of conduct were just part of their repertoire.

They, like the Muslims had a book to guide their violence but, in truth, you don't need one if your god empowers you to magically create the kind of world that's friendly to dogma, patriarchy, wilful ignorance and the sacrifice of the "wicked". All of those things apply as much to the Christian tradition as the Muslim one.

I'm not sure why we consistently disagree about this point that Christians are as bad. I don't see how my general distaste for magical thinking is an affront to your personal problem with just one flavor of it. I don't like Islam either but I can't separate one group of fleas as worse than another based upon which dog they infest.
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The fact that Christians acted badly is NOT is doubt. I still don't have the time to properly answer you, but I ask you to consider one thing, and that's to compare the examples set by Mohamed and Jesus. Therein lies the difference.
 
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