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Thread: Pakistan army called on to stop 'blasphemy' clashes in Islamabad

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    Re: Pakistan army called on to stop 'blasphemy' clashes in Islamabad

    Quote Originally Posted by stevecanuck View Post
    I don't see the contradiction. I'm simply saying that although there is a minority who would rather not be ruled by Islam, my experience is that most do live their lives based on Islamic tenets. They don't see it as "misery" at all. To them, this life as an audition to see who gets into heaven. After all, what is 80ish years of corporeal existence when compared to an eternity of bliss in God's whore house in the sky?
    It seems that a life of faith is inherently arbitrary. I find it hugely ironic that the refugees from Syria don't just accept that their lives are crappy because Allah decided it. For them to move to the west for safety is to, in some way, deprive their god of his earthly punishment. The Christians do the same thing. When a tornado comes through and wipes out the whole town, they thank god for saving the survivors rather than admitting that He just decided that many of the town's children should be orphans or that parents should be childless. There is no logical consistency when faith is the answer.

    Islam was finalized before Mohamed died in 632. We know that because the Qur'an says so. People have since come along and changed the manner of adherence to it, but no, Islam has NOT evolved. The Qur'an exists for the sole purpose of defining Islam, and it's a done deal.
    I tend to believe that faith is usually relative to desperation. Once people are no longer desperately hungry or sick or in danger of dying from sectarian violence, their faith relaxes, as it should. Within just a generation or two of moving to the US, many people from cultures profoundly faithful find they need it less and less in daily life.

    My hope, any way, is that as the conditions for human desperation are mitigated by positive cultural shifts, faith will find itself mellowing out. I would hope that those who are no longer as desperate would concede some of their zealotry to a more stable civil environment. Those who don't should be deported.

  2. #22
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    Re: Pakistan army called on to stop 'blasphemy' clashes in Islamabad

    Quote Originally Posted by D_NATURED View Post
    It seems that a life of faith is inherently arbitrary. I find it hugely ironic that the refugees from Syria don't just accept that their lives are crappy because Allah decided it. For them to move to the west for safety is to, in some way, deprive their god of his earthly punishment. The Christians do the same thing. When a tornado comes through and wipes out the whole town, they thank god for saving the survivors rather than admitting that He just decided that many of the town's children should be orphans or that parents should be childless. There is no logical consistency when faith is the answer.



    I tend to believe that faith is usually relative to desperation. Once people are no longer desperately hungry or sick or in danger of dying from sectarian violence, their faith relaxes, as it should. Within just a generation or two of moving to the US, many people from cultures profoundly faithful find they need it less and less in daily life.

    My hope, any way, is that as the conditions for human desperation are mitigated by positive cultural shifts, faith will find itself mellowing out. I would hope that those who are no longer as desperate would concede some of their zealotry to a more stable civil environment. Those who don't should be deported.
    The only quibble I have with your reasoning has to do with faith being relative to desperation. Devout Muslims are slaves to their god (abdullah literally means slave of God) regardless of their personal situation.

    Btw, there are 99 names that start with Abdul (slave of the....) that are followed by one of the names of God, so there are 99 ways of saying it. Abdullah is just one.
    See something, say something, get called an Islamophobe.

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    Re: Pakistan army called on to stop 'blasphemy' clashes in Islamabad

    Quote Originally Posted by D_NATURED View Post
    Christianity has every ounce the bloody potential of Islam. What keeps them "honest" today is our secular democracy.
    This is where we seem to disagree most. That statement is just not true. There are 2 factors to consider: 1) Qur'an and Hadiths vs. Bible, and 2) the example set by Mohamed vs. that of the fictional character called Jesus.

    I have to leave shortly, so I'll leave it there for now. Details to follow in a day or two.
    See something, say something, get called an Islamophobe.

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    Re: Pakistan army called on to stop 'blasphemy' clashes in Islamabad

    Quote Originally Posted by stevecanuck View Post
    This is where we seem to disagree most. That statement is just not true. There are 2 factors to consider: 1) Qur'an and Hadiths vs. Bible, and 2) the example set by Mohamed vs. that of the fictional character called Jesus.

    I have to leave shortly, so I'll leave it there for now. Details to follow in a day or two.
    When the puritan christians came to the new world, they were as brutal as modern Muslims can be. Drowning or burning women and imposing strict religious rules of conduct were just part of their repertoire.

    They, like the Muslims had a book to guide their violence but, in truth, you don't need one if your god empowers you to magically create the kind of world that's friendly to dogma, patriarchy, wilful ignorance and the sacrifice of the "wicked". All of those things apply as much to the Christian tradition as the Muslim one.

    I'm not sure why we consistently disagree about this point that Christians are as bad. I don't see how my general distaste for magical thinking is an affront to your personal problem with just one flavor of it. I don't like Islam either but I can't separate one group of fleas as worse than another based upon which dog they infest.

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    Re: Pakistan army called on to stop 'blasphemy' clashes in Islamabad

    Quote Originally Posted by D_NATURED View Post
    When the puritan christians came to the new world, they were as brutal as modern Muslims can be. Drowning or burning women and imposing strict religious rules of conduct were just part of their repertoire.

    They, like the Muslims had a book to guide their violence but, in truth, you don't need one if your god empowers you to magically create the kind of world that's friendly to dogma, patriarchy, wilful ignorance and the sacrifice of the "wicked". All of those things apply as much to the Christian tradition as the Muslim one.

    I'm not sure why we consistently disagree about this point that Christians are as bad. I don't see how my general distaste for magical thinking is an affront to your personal problem with just one flavor of it. I don't like Islam either but I can't separate one group of fleas as worse than another based upon which dog they infest.
    The fact that Christians acted badly is NOT is doubt. I still don't have the time to properly answer you, but I ask you to consider one thing, and that's to compare the examples set by Mohamed and Jesus. Therein lies the difference.
    See something, say something, get called an Islamophobe.

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    Re: Pakistan army called on to stop 'blasphemy' clashes in Islamabad

    Quote Originally Posted by D_NATURED View Post
    Christianity has every ounce the bloody potential of Islam. What keeps them "honest" today is our secular democracy. Americans don't have to fear being murdered when they criticize Christianity in the same way that Muslims abroad do. Muslim culture never had an enlightenment. The average Muslim sees no distinction between faith and politics. Islam instructs their politics as much as their religious behavior.

    Frankly, I'm disgusted that ANY of these ancient superstitions have survived to create such disharmony among modern people. If I had my way, they would ALL be challenged to prove they aren't obstructing human intellectual and cultural progress before they could operate tax free.

    In a sense, the enlightenment value of "believe whatever crazy **** you like" has left the door open to zealots of all flavors. For too long it has been considered taboo to mention that invisible sky men are just make believe. I'm not even looking to have that fight, though. I would, however, like to see the faithful begin to respect ME enough not to ask me to believe absolutely anything without evidence. No matter what choice THEY make, I don't want to have reality poisoned by their fantasies. What needs to change for the face of faith to become less stupid is for everyone, faithful and faithless alike, to demand it not just for the other guy.

    So far, introspection remains lost on those entitled to believe.

    I agree. A religious perceptual perceptual reality was used to replace a spiritual perceptual reality. In my view, humanity really went astray with this notion of a male dominator god.

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    Re: Pakistan army called on to stop 'blasphemy' clashes in Islamabad

    Quote Originally Posted by stevecanuck View Post
    The fact that Christians acted badly is NOT is doubt. I still don't have the time to properly answer you, but I ask you to consider one thing, and that's to compare the examples set by Mohamed and Jesus. Therein lies the difference.
    I think your point would carry more water if we didn't already have two thousand years of clear evidence that contradicts it. Regardless of what any interpretation of the bible says, Chriistians have had no difficulty finding sufficient justification for murder, slavery and oppression. Conversely, many Muslims have found inspiration for charity in the Koran. I can't blame a book, either way, for what people do. Yes, they are reading crap but, at the end of the day, the real problem is that they choose to view the world through a magical lens.

    Magic is a conversation stopper and no matter what is being claimed as magic, there is no room for or ability of logical arguments to prevail. Violence is the predictable result of beliefs that can't be defended rhetorically, no matter how nicey-nice they sound on paper.

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    Re: Pakistan army called on to stop 'blasphemy' clashes in Islamabad

    Quote Originally Posted by D_NATURED View Post
    I think your point would carry more water if we didn't already have two thousand years of clear evidence that contradicts it. Regardless of what any interpretation of the bible says, Chriistians have had no difficulty finding sufficient justification for murder, slavery and oppression. Conversely, many Muslims have found inspiration for charity in the Koran. I can't blame a book, either way, for what people do. Yes, they are reading crap but, at the end of the day, the real problem is that they choose to view the world through a magical lens.

    Magic is a conversation stopper and no matter what is being claimed as magic, there is no room for or ability of logical arguments to prevail. Violence is the predictable result of beliefs that can't be defended rhetorically, no matter how nicey-nice they sound on paper.
    I'm on my way out, so this is just going to be another drive-by. Sorry about that. You're missing my point entirely. I'm trying to talk about the religion itself. What does Islam tell it's followers, while you're responding with historical references, and equating actions with teachings. I will probably make a separate thread on this eventually. I hope you see the difference. Gotta go.
    See something, say something, get called an Islamophobe.

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