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Roy Moore and Republicans, taking the Bible literally but not seriously

Somerville

Somerville

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We can all be guilty of picking and choosing justifications for our actions but for me, it is the sheer and utter hypocrisy of some who call themselves "Christian" that I find mind-boggling. Please note the some, I do not find that most Christians act in the ways of these freakin' hypocrites who are defending Roy Moore. Is it because he says the Bible rules over the Constitution or because he is a politician with an R behind his name?

Roy Moore and Republicans, taking the Bible literally but not seriously

So President Trump, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.) and fellow Republicans think Roy Moore, the GOP Senate nominee from Alabama, should quit his Senate run only “if these allegations are true.”

If true? Four women, on the record in The Post, say Moore, when he was in his 30s, tried to date them as teens, and one of the women says he had sexual contact with her when she was 14 and he was 32. Perhaps Republicans expect video and DNA evidence from 1979 magically to emerge, or a confession by Moore? (He denies the allegations.) More likely they are just dodging so they can stick with Moore and keep the seat Republican — even if it means having an alleged pedophile join their caucus.

By comparison, there was more integrity in the defense of Moore offered by Alabama State Auditor Jim Zeigler, who told the Washington Examiner that, even if true, “there’s just nothing immoral or illegal here.” Indeed there’s biblical precedent for Moore’s alleged behavior.

“Take Joseph and Mary,” Zeigler said. “Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”

Jumpin’ Jehoshaphat!

Let us take seriously Zeigler’s justification, which is consistent with Moore’s view that “God’s laws are always superior to man’s laws,” and the Bible stands above the Constitution and other piddling laws of man.
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Milbank then provides us with a list of Biblical "laws" seldom followed by modern American Christians.
if we are to accept the Bible literally as the legal standard (and not, say, age-of-consent laws), we will also have to accept as legal certain other activities in 21st-century America, including:

Sacrificing as a burnt offering your young son (Genesis 22:2) or your daughter, if she comes out of the doors of your house to meet you (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5).

Having rebellious children stoned to death by all the men of the city (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).

Purchasing slaves (Leviticus 25:44-46), selling your daughter as a slave (Exodus 21:7-8) and making sure they submit to their masters, even cruel ones (1 Peter 2:18).

Executing pagan priests on their own altars and burning their bones (2 Kings 23:20-25).

Cutting off the hand of a woman if she grabs the penis of a man who is fighting with her husband (Deuteronomy 25:11-12).

Committing incest (Genesis 19:31-36) and cannibalism (2 Kings 6:28-29).

And having the military do all sorts of things to the enemy that would violate the Geneva accords:

Kill all boys and women but spare the girls who have not known man intimately for yourself (Numbers 31:17-18).

Destroy all that they have, killing man, woman, child, infant, ox, sheep, camel and donkey (1 Samuel 15:3).
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Somerville said:
We can all be guilty of picking and choosing justifications for our actions but for me, it is the sheer and utter hypocrisy of some who call themselves "Christian" that I find mind-boggling. Please note the some, I do not find that most Christians act in the ways of these freakin' hypocrites who are defending Roy Moore. Is it because he says the Bible rules over the Constitution or because he is a politician with an R behind his name?



Milbank then provides us with a list of Biblical "laws" seldom followed by modern American Christians.
Click to expand...

It's unchristian to defend someone against false accusations?

Do you believe that we should also still be burning witches?

Just curious.
 
HowardBThiname said:
It's unchristian to defend someone against false accusations?

Do you believe that we should also still be burning witches?

Just curious.
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They are defending him against multiple accusations. Some he has said may be true. They have no idea if true or untrue.

If you can find an actual witch, by all means, feel free to burn them.
 
HowardBThiname said:
It's unchristian to defend someone against false accusations?

Do you believe that we should also still be burning witches?

Just curious.
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I would say it is extremely "unchristian" to attempt justification for sexual harassment of a minor by referring to biblical passages about Joseph and Mary's age differences - which we don't really know anyway. At this point in time, we don't know if they are "false accusations."

In Salem, the witches were executed by hanging, not burning. Why would I believe in killing witches? I am not a Christian. Your avatar is a wizard, a title that some view as little more than the male version of "witch". Modern witches prefer being labled as Wiccans.
 
Somerville said:
We can all be guilty of picking and choosing justifications for our actions but for me, it is the sheer and utter hypocrisy of some who call themselves "Christian" that I find mind-boggling. Please note the some, I do not find that most Christians act in the ways of these freakin' hypocrites who are defending Roy Moore. Is it because he says the Bible rules over the Constitution or because he is a politician with an R behind his name?



Milbank then provides us with a list of Biblical "laws" seldom followed by modern American Christians.
Click to expand...

A 19 year old is still a teenager. Generally 18 & 19 year olds that date older men are accepted as normal behavior. There is some grey area for 16 & 17 year olds. Most people believe girls 15 and younger should not be dating outside their age box.
If the kissing of the 14 year old by Moore is false, then the rest of his behavior is considered normal. But most on the left will still piss and moan cuz they dont like the guys political stances.
 
trblmkr said:
They are defending him against multiple accusations. Some he has said may be true. They have no idea if true or untrue.

If you can find an actual witch, by all means, feel free to burn them.
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I am sure he is probably guilty but just think of this new potential attack card...
 
trblmkr said:
They are defending him against multiple accusations. Some he has said may be true. They have no idea if true or untrue.

If you can find an actual witch, by all means, feel free to burn them.
Click to expand...

Moore has said that non of the inappropriate sexual advances were true. He did say he dated a 17 yr old - but that's legal after all.
 
Somerville said:
I would say it is extremely "unchristian" to attempt justification for sexual harassment of a minor by referring to biblical passages about Joseph and Mary's age differences - which we don't really know anyway. At this point in time, we don't know if they are "false accusations."

In Salem, the witches were executed by hanging, not burning. Why would I believe in killing witches? I am not a Christian. Your avatar is a wizard, a title that some view as little more than the male version of "witch". Modern witches prefer being labled as Wiccans.
Click to expand...

You certainly know a lot about witches, er..."wiccans."

Perhaps they weren't burned in Salem -- I believe you're correct on that -- but they were burned during the Inquisition.

Point being -- convicting someone in the court of public opinion is a dangerous thing.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Moore has said that non of the inappropriate sexual advances were true. He did say he dated a 17 yr old - but that's legal after all.
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The people who were of legal age that said they dated him said they were 16 , 17 and 18 at the time they dated him. The one that was 14 at the time said she dated him too, and she is a life long republican, who had voted for trump. So there is no political motivation there.
 
RAMOSS said:
The people who were of legal age that said they dated him said they were 16 , 17 and 18 at the time they dated him. The one that was 14 at the time said she dated him too, and she is a life long republican, who had voted for trump. So there is no political motivation there.
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Because someone votes for Trump does not mean they like Moore or that they want him elected for political reasons.

We do know that her timing is suspect now -- revealing the so-called "incident" when he's ahead in the polls on his ticket.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Because someone votes for Trump does not mean they like Moore or that they want him elected for political reasons.

We do know that her timing is suspect now -- revealing the so-called "incident" when he's ahead in the polls on his ticket.
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I am sure the timing is not accident.. on the part of washington post. Nor is the investigation into the rumors, which , with these four women's stories, were confirmed.
 
The religious aspect here is;

Will Alabama evangelicals ignore the sexual molestation allegations about Moore in order to elect a [supposed] Bible-thumper with highly negative stances on abortion and LGBT rights?
 
HowardBThiname said:
It's unchristian to defend someone against false accusations?

Do you believe that we should also still be burning witches?

Just curious.
Click to expand...

I wonder how you'd feel if it was your daughter that accused him of assaulting her? Besides, the fact that girls used to get married off at 13 during Jesus' time doesn't mean it's OK today. Many of us are better than Jesus today, we don't believe in religiously sanctioned child rape, slavery or invisible sky men.

The problem with conservatives is that when you go around acting like everything was better in the past, you end up having to agree with every horrible practice that humanity has ever engaged in while ironically dreading the future. Objectively, the past is where we came FROM and not, by any means, where we should be heading. Those who look to the bible to find wisdom for contemporary life are usually just looking for an excuse not to evolve and they find it.
 
D_NATURED said:
I wonder how you'd feel if it was your daughter that accused him of assaulting her? Besides, the fact that girls used to get married off at 13 during Jesus' time doesn't mean it's OK today. Many of us are better than Jesus today, we don't believe in religiously sanctioned child rape, slavery or invisible sky men.
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My daughter would have known to come to me with her tale immediately. I would have dealt with it right then and there. And, please don't bring Jesus into this. He's a myth. He didn't exist. You're free to believe in Him, but your religious views aren't a part of this discussion and I'm not going to debate what He said as if it should have some sort of weight in this debate. Take that subject up with your pastor.

The problem with conservatives is that when you go around acting like everything was better in the past, you end up having to agree with every horrible practice that humanity has ever engaged in while ironically dreading the future. Objectively, the past is where we came FROM and not, by any means, where we should be heading. Those who look to the bible to find wisdom for contemporary life are usually just looking for an excuse not to evolve and they find it.
Click to expand...

You're the one making references to the Bible -- don't put that crap on me.

This is about a woman who came out of the woodwork and told a tale 40 years after it supposedly happened -- at just the moment when her target would be the most politically damaged by it.
 
HowardBThiname said:
My daughter would have known to come to me with her tale immediately. I would have dealt with it right then and there. And, please don't bring Jesus into this. He's a myth. He didn't exist. You're free to believe in Him, but your religious views aren't a part of this discussion and I'm not going to debate what He said as if it should have some sort of weight in this debate. Take that subject up with your pastor.



You're the one making references to the Bible -- don't put that crap on me.

This is about a woman who came out of the woodwork and told a tale 40 years after it supposedly happened -- at just the moment when her target would be the most politically damaged by it.
Click to expand...


BINGO!

As my kid did, in part because I am a good parent. We need to get the basics right, and that does not include waiting 40 years to put in a complain, unless you are in a coma.

I am not buying this story that Women are such a second rate gender that they cant talk till the optimal time in their whatever...which can take up to 40 years apparently.
 
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Hawkeye10 said:
BINGO!

As my kid did, in part because I am a good parent. We need to get the basics right, and that does not include waiting 40 years to put in a complain, unless you are in a coma.
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Exactly. A 14 year old should be able to confide in a parent if that parent is close to being a decent parent.

Something very fishy about this whole tale.
 
trblmkr said:
They are defending him against multiple accusations. Some he has said may be true. They have no idea if true or untrue.

If you can find an actual witch, by all means, feel free to burn them.
Click to expand...

What's multiple accusations got to do with defending him?

Let's take this calmly: these are just allegations right now!

Why did they come out 4 week before the election?
Of course, it's only sensible to consider the timing, since dirty politics is so common now.
 
Somerville said:
Milbank then provides us with a list of Biblical "laws" seldom followed by modern American Christians.
Click to expand...

You love examples from the OLD TESTAMENT, don't you?

One of your outdated examples: "Having rebellious children stoned to death by all the men of the city (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)."

What did Jesus tell you about that, Somerville? Jesus said, "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone" (John 8:7).

That effectively abolished stoning. And if you dig further in the New Testament you'll find that the only two entities who pass out capital punishment are God (Acts 5, Book of Revelation), and government (Romans 13).

You even brought up slavery again. Jesus tried to help you with that but it apparently hasn't taken. Jesus said, "love your neighbor as you love yourself." What part of that condones enslaving one's fellow man?

Please update your outdated theology.
 
Logicman said:
You love examples from the OLD TESTAMENT, don't you?

One of your outdated examples: "Having rebellious children stoned to death by all the men of the city (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)."

What did Jesus tell you about that, Somerville? Jesus said, "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone" (John 8:7).

That effectively abolished stoning. And if you dig further in the New Testament you'll find that the only two entities who pass out capital punishment are God (Acts 5, Book of Revelation), and government (Romans 13).

You even brought up slavery again. Jesus tried to help you with that but it apparently hasn't taken. Jesus said, "love your neighbor as you love yourself." What part of that condones enslaving one's fellow man?

Please update your outdated theology.
Click to expand...

So being gay is ok?
 
Logicman said:
You love examples from the OLD TESTAMENT, don't you?

One of your outdated examples: "Having rebellious children stoned to death by all the men of the city (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)."

What did Jesus tell you about that, Somerville? Jesus said, "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone" (John 8:7).

That effectively abolished stoning. And if you dig further in the New Testament you'll find that the only two entities who pass out capital punishment are God (Acts 5, Book of Revelation), and government (Romans 13).

You even brought up slavery again. Jesus tried to help you with that but it apparently hasn't taken. Jesus said, "love your neighbor as you love yourself." What part of that condones enslaving one's fellow man?

Please update your outdated theology.
Click to expand...

then, there are all those New Testament 'parables' that folks trying to twist into something that you have to reach into a lot of symbolism to deny the plain meaning of the words. "I come not for peace but with a sword', and 'Bring me my enemies before me, those that would nto have me rule of over them and slay them'. The 'meaning' of that is taken from everyplace, but the words surrounding the phrases themselves. .. you know.. the context.
 
Somerville said:
We can all be guilty of picking and choosing justifications for our actions but for me, it is the sheer and utter hypocrisy of some who call themselves "Christian" that I find mind-boggling. Please note the some, I do not find that most Christians act in the ways of these freakin' hypocrites who are defending Roy Moore. Is it because he says the Bible rules over the Constitution or because he is a politician with an R behind his name?



Milbank then provides us with a list of Biblical "laws" seldom followed by modern American Christians.
Click to expand...

Well Rob moore is a vile human being IMO and has proved that more than once. But he certainly doesnt represent Christians (I know you already pointed that out) or republicans.

As far as these allegations, well I dont know what happened but it most certainly is VERY shady. He claims that he doesnt know the 14yr old at all and would clearly remember if he did but yet with the other women he magically claims "he cant remembers" and if that happened, it did, but he always had the parents permission :shock: WTH lol

Hey maybe he is telling the truth but that alone is creepy enough and who doesnt remember dating 16-18yr olds when you are 30? riiiiiight. Again I dont know what happened but that is shady and with or without the accusations being true is is still a POS IMO :shrug:

People have voted for this nutter before and people will probably vote for him again, thats on them. lol
 
HowardBThiname said:
My daughter would have known to come to me with her tale immediately. I would have dealt with it right then and there. And, please don't bring Jesus into this. He's a myth. He didn't exist. You're free to believe in Him, but your religious views aren't a part of this discussion and I'm not going to debate what He said as if it should have some sort of weight in this debate. Take that subject up with your pastor.



You're the one making references to the Bible -- don't put that crap on me.

This is about a woman who came out of the woodwork and told a tale 40 years after it supposedly happened -- at just the moment when her target would be the most politically damaged by it.
Click to expand...

First of all, this thread talks about Jesus, I didn’t mention it arbitrarily. Secondly, the question is not just about any particular girl but whether our society feels like romantic relationships between men in their thirties and fourteen year olds is moral. Some are using the bible to say it's OK now as it was then.

As for the timing, who cares except that it may be too late for legal action. Furthermore, there are things that are painful enough that they take decades to admit. For instance, my 71 year old mother only recently got to the point where she could talk about how she was repeatedly raped, as a child, by her older sister's husband. Even my father, who died 27 years ago, didn't know. So, the time lapse is not evidence of anything sinister, or perhaps it is, but not on the part of the victim.

The primary source of silent suffering among victims of sexual assault is the shame that victims feel. They are far too often considered complicit in their own victimization. That too is sanctioned in the bible. Clearly, whether you believe in the bible, that aspect of human nature remains intact when you come out to call imply she's a liar.
 
D_NATURED said:
First of all, this thread talks about Jesus, I didn’t mention it arbitrarily. Secondly, the question is not just about any particular girl but whether our society feels like romantic relationships between men in their thirties and fourteen year olds is moral. Some are using the bible to say it's OK now as it was then.

As for the timing, who cares except that it may be too late for legal action. Furthermore, there are things that are painful enough that they take decades to admit. For instance, my 71 year old mother only recently got to the point where she could talk about how she was repeatedly raped, as a child, by her older sister's husband. Even my father, who died 27 years ago, didn't know. So, the time lapse is not evidence of anything sinister, or perhaps it is, but not on the part of the victim.

The primary source of silent suffering among victims of sexual assault is the shame that victims feel. They are far too often considered complicit in their own victimization. That too is sanctioned in the bible. Clearly, whether you believe in the bible, that aspect of human nature remains intact when you come out to call imply she's a liar.
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You really aren't making a strong point bringing mythology into it. I don't believe in the bible, and I'm not calling the accuser a liar, either, but the timing of her accusations, followed by the bandwagon-jumping of other women about incidents 40 years ago are suspicious, indeed.

I don't think anyone needs to be a believer in a religion to smell when something's fishy. Now, I hear a fifth woman is making accusations. The first four obviously didn't do good enough of a job, more accusations are needed.

Moore might be guilty -- I don't know -- but I also know that no one else knows either, which is why this kind of witch hunt doesn't sit well with me. To me, it wouldn't matter if it was Moore or Bill Clinton -- these kinds of accusations -- are extremely damaging and trying them in the court of public opinion is wrong, in my opinion.
 
RAMOSS said:
then, there are all those New Testament 'parables' that folks trying to twist into something that you have to reach into a lot of symbolism to deny the plain meaning of the words. "I come not for peace but with a sword', and 'Bring me my enemies before me, those that would nto have me rule of over them and slay them'. The 'meaning' of that is taken from everyplace, but the words surrounding the phrases themselves. .. you know.. the context.
Click to expand...

You've demonstrated you don't have a clue about those parables.
 
Logicman said:
You've demonstrated you don't have a clue about those parables.
Click to expand...

Yet, for all that, you have not been able to show , in context, any other meaning from what I postulate. Like others, you will quote from any place BUT words surrounding those phrases.
 
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