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Faith and politics[W:398]

Elvira said:
You could not be further from the truth...if everyone believed the way we do, there would be complete peace on the earth...no wars, no fighting, no killing, no man would rule over another man...all men would be united in love...
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that still sounds the same
 
D_NATURED said:
In a recent discussion of abortion, I was reminded by a philosophical ally that there are those who have faith AND believe in human rights for women. It got me thinking about the difference, not really in the definition of faith, but how its applied. It seems to me there are two ways that faith exists.

For some people their faith is a product of their morality and, by learning the truth, they come to know god. For others, their morality is a product of faith and truth is a pre-existing shape to which reality must be molded. No doubt, some people possess such a rigid idea of morality and faith that no new information can be allowed to challenge it. Others are happy to see their morality and faith evolve with the addition of new facts.

So, my question is, does anyone believe that what their god prefers can be different than what makes sense for human, civil society? Or, do you believe that what is right for humans MUST naturally be consistent with morality and adjust your faith accordingly.

Would you describe your faith as rigid or flexible and how does that make it work better for you?

How do you reconcile your faith when what your faith demands is inconsistent with what you or others need to be happy?

Just curious...
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As an atheist, how do you comment upon this without immediate and aggressive disapproval from those that have faith who will subsequently treat you like the guy who is telling kids that Santa doesn't exist; how dare I rob them of the joy and wonder of believing something irrational because it makes them feel good! Actually, I don't tell kids that but then, it doesn't generally appear to be doing harm to them and, when they get to an age to understand, the vast majority of kids see it as a rites of passage to know that they are part of the adult world that no longer believes in the irrational fantasy. When they have kids they realise that it is actually great fun as adults to switch off from the real world for a while and just indulge what essentially boils down to a role play and as long as the fantasy does not become a burden then what harm does it do? The harm is when kids start to feel entitled by the fantasy, that their wants are needs and if they are not met then you get an irrational response that you have to try to use reason to bring them down from.
 
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D_NATURED said:
It truly saddens me that people choose to live as if they are on a thin moral tightrope over a pit of demons. What a waste of potential joy. When they do that, when they rule themselves in fear, they put everyone's joy at risk to satisfy their anxiety. That fact is being painted in red all over the middle east.
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~This!~

Some deep stuff there, and I couldn't have said it any better.
 
Barny said:
Elvira said:
Since I've stopped associating with JW's... in most aspects of my life, honestly YES (however life is a bit difficult at the moment in Australia as we are going through a marriage equality debate at the moment and gay people are being vilified by some religious organizations). I'm no longer burdened with the shame, guilt, judgement from the religion and family. I'm content in the person I am. I live by the golden rule. I'm prepared to stand before God at the time of judgment and state my case. I'll sure be asking him why I was born gay if he didn't want us to act on it as I certainly did not choose this "lifestyle".
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Anybody's life gets better when they escape from a religious cult. I know three people whose lives improved when they left the JW.
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D_NATURED said:
It truly saddens me that people choose to live as if they are on a thin moral tightrope over a pit of demons. What a waste of potential joy. When they do that, when they rule themselves in fear, they put everyone's joy at risk to satisfy their anxiety. That fact is being painted in red all over the middle east.
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For anyone who truly lives their faith, that should not be the case...first off, there is no eternal punishment by fire and brimstone, only an eternal cutting off from God/permanent end to life...second of all, the joy comes in pleasing my Creator, making His heart glad, much like a child does for his parent...

Proverbs 27:11..."Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me."

Third of all, one's faith should be governed out of love...love for God and love for mankind, doing my part in helping others to maintain a similar relationship with their Creator...that is true joy...
 
Elvira said:
For anyone who truly lives their faith, that should not be the case...first off, there is no eternal punishment by fire and brimstone, only an eternal cutting off from God/permanent end to life...second of all, the joy comes in pleasing my Creator, making His heart glad, much like a child does for his parent...

Proverbs 27:11..."Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me."

Third of all, one's faith should be governed out of love...love for God and love for mankind, doing my part in helping others to maintain a similar relationship with their Creator...that is true joy...
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This is not the religion forum.
 
William Rea said:
As an atheist, how do you comment upon this without immediate and aggressive disapproval from those that have faith who will subsequently treat you like the guy who is telling kids that Santa doesn't exist; how dare I rob them of the joy and wonder of believing something irrational because it makes them feel good!
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Tell them that, as spiritual beings, what feels good is not always what IS good. The reason I started this thread is that I came to understand that, whether I like it or not, some of the people whose opinions I respect consider themselves to be people of faith. I am reconciling my stand by acknowledging that faith, as a foundation for all you are, is different than faith as a part of who you are. The former version is rigid dogma leading to oppression and misery and the other is a search without physical or intellectual borders. I still have concerns about the use of the word "faith" in the latter sense because it can easily become faith in the former sense if the user isn't careful.


Actually, I don't tell kids that but then, it doesn't generally appear to be doing harm to them and, when they get to an age to understand, the vast majority of kids see it as a rites of passage to know that they are part of the adult world that no longer believes in the irrational fantasy. When they have kids they realise that it is actually great fun as adults to switch off from the real world for a while and just indulge what essentially boils down to a role play and as long as the fantasy does not become a burden then what harm does it do? The harm is when kids start to feel entitled by the fantasy, that their wants are needs and if they are not met then you get an irrational response that you have to try to use reason to bring them down from.
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I know what you mean. There was an editorial recently on MSN from a woman who said she was tired of being "shamed" for wanting her children to have a magical childhood. My instinct was that she SHOULD feel shame. Today's children are tomorrow's adults and they will have many challenges for which magical thinking will only exacerbate the problem. When it comes to Santa or God, it doesn't help for poor children to believe that Santa prefers wealthy ones and it doesn't serve our society to imagine that god favors wealth, but if you believe in their magic and see our reality, that association is naturally arrived at.

There is an entitlement to magic among certain people that is damn near impossible to argue away. They need it like burn victims need morphine. I struggle with that because I really do understand pain and anxiety and don't wish it on them needlessly. However, that god drug can become an addiction that, ultimately, harms not just the user but EVERYONE in our society, yet it is very common for politicians and advertisers to pander to these addicts with no appreciation for the harm it causes. That line between harm and healing is where I have set up my defenses and where I begin to fight. Too often, though, my friends are my enemies in that one.
 
Elvira said:
You could not be further from the truth...if everyone believed the way we do, there would be complete peace on the earth...no wars, no fighting, no killing, no man would rule over another man...all men would be united in love...
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yep, the world is in conflict because humanity in general refuses to "love one another" .... which is course is the supreme command of the Lord of the Universe.
 
John Prewett said:
yep, the world is in conflict because humanity in general refuses to "love one another" .... which is course is the supreme command of the Lord of the Universe.
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I missed that fantasy movie.
 
John Prewett said:
yep, the world is in conflict because humanity in general refuses to "love one another" .... which is course is the supreme command of the Lord of the Universe.
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The day will come...
 
John Prewett said:
yep, the world is in conflict because humanity in general refuses to "love one another" .... which is course is the supreme command of the Lord of the Universe.
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John, that's a very simplistic, juvenile assessment. The worst part about it is that it ignores the vast complexity of human relations and the various ways we've evolved culturally and religiously. It propses that your deity is naive and oblivious to all of the hurdles to peace that can't simply be loved away.

This opinion reminds me of the kumbaya BS that hippies love to spout. It sounds nice, in a childish way, but does nothing to acknowledge what faith-based differences exist on this planet.

Everyone just loving each other is not a solution, it's a fantasy.
 
HowardBThiname said:
~This!~

Some deep stuff there, and I couldn't have said it any better.
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Too bad it all presumes that people of faith are living joyless lives full of anxiety and fear.;)
 
nota bene said:
Too bad it all presumes that people of faith are living joyless lives full of anxiety and fear.;)
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Jog said he thought Hell was awaitin' if he didn't tread right in life. That magical, paranoid mindset where you must constantly worry that you may not be in god's favor must be maddening. The fear of Hell, if not your particular problem, is extremely common. My Pentecostal granny sure had it bad.

Hell is a very strongly ingrained part of the Christian faith that appeals to something innate in gloomy humans. I know a woman who, even six months after coming to the conclusion that god doesn't exist, still feared Hell. Superstition is superstition whether you're imagining devils or unicorns and rainbows but one, however, packs more punch. A torture avoided is always a bigger motivator than a reward. That's the one-two punch of religious hegemony. That's their pitch. It works.

Joy, for what it's worth is fleeting but I seek it all the same. Because joy can be hard to come by, that is why I wouldn't waste precious time on visions of Hell and heaven. Contrary to their façade, there can be no joy in being an arbitrary recipient of magic. If you don't want to call that anxiety, you underestimate its impact.
 
nota bene said:
Too bad it all presumes that people of faith are living joyless lives full of anxiety and fear.;)
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Quite the contrary, Nota...faith gives us hope and confidence in the future with much less anxiety and fear than the average person...granted, there is always some because we are imperfect humans but the stress level is down tremendously and the joy is abundant...
 
Elvira said:
Quite the contrary, Nota...faith gives us hope and confidence in the future with much less anxiety and fear than the average person...granted, there is always some because we are imperfect humans but the stress level is down tremendously and the joy is abundant...
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Yes, great hope and complete confidence.
 
stevecanuck said:
If you substitute "Muslim" for "Jehovah's Witness", "Mohamed" for "Paul", and the "Qur'an and Hadiths" for "Timothy", you will have a perfect understanding of Islam. Both of you are convinced beyond any hope of rational thought that you are following the will of what is in truth the empty sky. "God" help us.
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You really don't seem to get the simple fact that following God's laws actually does make many people happier than they experienced without it. Your personal arguments are as empty to them from their own experience as your sky is to you.
 
Barny said:
As a person raised as a JW but unfortunately born gay I can tell you his commandments are burdensome. Try a lifetime of fighting the desires to procreate, the desires that god created us with and then get back to me on that one!!
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Since when do gay people fight the urge to procreate?
 
D_NATURED said:
It truly saddens me that people choose to live as if they are on a thin moral tightrope over a pit of demons. What a waste of potential joy. When they do that, when they rule themselves in fear, they put everyone's joy at risk to satisfy their anxiety. That fact is being painted in red all over the middle east.
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That reads like a Octogenarian describing punk rock. You really don't get it but aren't letting that get in the way of telling people you don't like it anyway.
 
jmotivator said:
You really don't seem to get the simple fact that following God's laws actually does make many people happier than they experienced without it. Your personal arguments are as empty to them from their own experience as your sky is to you.
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No, I understand fully the placebo effect that faith has on people.
 
jmotivator said:
That reads like a Octogenarian describing punk rock. You really don't get it but aren't letting that get in the way of telling people you don't like it anyway.
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We're so lucky to have you around to compile a list of those who "don't get it".
 
stevecanuck said:
We're so lucky to have you around to compile a list of those who "don't get it".
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LOL! Amazing lack of self-awareness there, Steve. My response was to your post telling us religious people what we "don't get". :lamo
 
jmotivator said:
LOL! Amazing lack of self-awareness there, Steve. My response was to your post telling us religious people what we "don't get". :lamo
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Are you saying that you don't appreciate others telling you what you think and believe? ;)
 
nota bene said:
Are you saying that you don't appreciate others telling you what you think and believe? ;)
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Yeah, when I read posts where people try to explain to me what I think and believe as a Christian I like to throw the sentiment right back at them almost verbatim to see how hey respond. The number of people who obliviously respond, as stevecanuck did, without ever realizing I was actually parroting their own sentiment is depressingly high.
 
jmotivator said:
Yeah, when I read posts where people try to explain to me what I think and believe as a Christian I like to throw the sentiment right back at them almost verbatim to see how hey respond. The number of people who obliviously respond, as stevecanuck did, without ever realizing I was actually parroting their own sentiment is depressingly high.
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What I can't fathom is the presumptuous need to tell others what they believe.
 
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