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Why can't the Islamic world catch up with the modern world?

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aurelius87

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Western societies have a tendency to deem that their way of life, their poltiical system, their freedoms and their culture are essentially "western." But I think quite differently. In my opinion, the so called western norms like democracy, rule of reason, consumerism, and human rights are universal values applicable regardless of race and creed. In this sense, Far Eastern countries like Korea and Japan are not very different from Europe or America. Even China, which boasts of its unique civilization and culture, share many common traits with Western societies and are insatiable consumers of Western style pop culture.

However, the Islamic world is very conservative and it seems to me that they are caged in a world centuries past. Kemal Ataturk, being perhaps, the only exception. Some say that western imperialism is to blame. But most Asian countries were also victims of imperialism, yet they overcame much of premodern norms and vices. East Asians in particular were obssessed with the idea of catching up with the West and in a sense they did it. As a result, South Korea and Japan are far wealthier and prosperous than most European countries except for UK, France or Germany (Well, Japan is wealthier than Germany or France, I have to admit).

Some others say that their religion is the main obstacle to modernization. Yet, during the Ottoman Empire, there were a fair number of progressive reformers who wanted to imitate Napoleonic France. The Young Ottomans were especially interested in science and constitutionalism. They even advocated for the creation of parliament. They didn't think of waging Jihad or being a puritan Muslim.

Nevertheless, many Islamic countries of the modern world are increasingly becoming more religious. Human rights, gender equality, AKA liberal values are being more and more marginalized. Those who stand up against conservative or extremist Islam are being threatened or killed. More surprisingly, those who were raised in Western societies are more radicalized than their compatriots in the middle East or North Africa.

Why? it is very difficult to understand.
 
The common denominator among civilized nations is a secular society and government. In other words, that any individual can choose to follow any religion or school of thought he pleases and be free from persecution for that decision. In the west and in many industrial countries in Asia this right is guaranteed, in much of the middle east, it's not. Most Muslims who grew up in the west are just as peaceful and tolerant as people from any other group, it has little to do with religion and everything to do with culture.
 
aurelius87 said:
Western societies have a tendency to deem that their way of life, their poltiical system, their freedoms and their culture are essentially "western." But I think quite differently. In my opinion, the so called western norms like democracy, rule of reason, consumerism, and human rights are universal values applicable regardless of race and creed. In this sense, Far Eastern countries like Korea and Japan are not very different from Europe or America. Even China, which boasts of its unique civilization and culture, share many common traits with Western societies and are insatiable consumers of Western style pop culture.

However, the Islamic world is very conservative and it seems to me that they are caged in a world centuries past. Kemal Ataturk, being perhaps, the only exception. Some say that western imperialism is to blame. But most Asian countries were also victims of imperialism, yet they overcame much of premodern norms and vices. East Asians in particular were obssessed with the idea of catching up with the West and in a sense they did it. As a result, South Korea and Japan are far wealthier and prosperous than most European countries except for UK, France or Germany (Well, Japan is wealthier than Germany or France, I have to admit).

Some others say that their religion is the main obstacle to modernization. Yet, during the Ottoman Empire, there were a fair number of progressive reformers who wanted to imitate Napoleonic France. The Young Ottomans were especially interested in science and constitutionalism. They even advocated for the creation of parliament. They didn't think of waging Jihad or being a puritan Muslim.

Nevertheless, many Islamic countries of the modern world are increasingly becoming more religious. Human rights, gender equality, AKA liberal values are being more and more marginalized. Those who stand up against conservative or extremist Islam are being threatened or killed. More surprisingly, those who were raised in Western societies are more radicalized than their compatriots in the middle East or North Africa.

Why? it is very difficult to understand.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's that simple. One doesn't need to be an atheist bigot that destroys bakers following there creed to be part of a dynamic society. The contrary is more the case. There is a quite respected theory that some religions are the reason for some societies' spectacular relative success. To get a hold of this kind of thing you have to go to the behavioral interaction levels of the culture/society, I think.
 
The first time I heard this I was skeptical, and I don’t pretend to be well studied so anyone feel free to correct me as I am happy to hear the evidence against, but one suggested major factor has been “inbreeding” which is significantly more concentrated in this region of the world: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419292/
 
I don't think Islam sees a modern World

aurelius87 said:
Western societies have a tendency to deem that their way of life, their poltiical system, their freedoms and their culture are essentially "western." But I think quite differently. In my opinion, the so called western norms like democracy, rule of reason, consumerism, and human rights are universal values applicable regardless of race and creed. In this sense, Far Eastern countries like Korea and Japan are not very different from Europe or America. Even China, which boasts of its unique civilization and culture, share many common traits with Western societies and are insatiable consumers of Western style pop culture.

However, the Islamic world is very conservative and it seems to me that they are caged in a world centuries past. Kemal Ataturk, being perhaps, the only exception. Some say that western imperialism is to blame.

...
Click to expand...

The short answer - Islam as a religion doesn't seem to feel that it has any catching up to do. As a religion & culture, they seem convinced of the superiority of their system of belief, & that it represents the culmination (or perfection) of the Jewish & Christian faiths here on Earth. Islamic religion closed down centuries ago - to my knowledge, they don't do systematic theology like the West has done with Christianity & Judaism (& really, all the religions that we've come across). There's very little questioning of authority in Islam that I can see - & there's hardly any central religious authority to appeal to there.
 
Re: I don't think Islam sees a modern World

It's a cyclical thing. They were once far ahead of the West in terms of science and medicine. And tolerance. And they were a major repository of Greek literature and philosophy that they passed on the the Europeans when the the Europeans were ready to receive it (see,"Renaissance"). They have since fallen behind for many reasons. Religious fundamentalism and discord being one of them. Christian fundamentalism shows great promise in pushing the West toward what the Islamic world has become.
 
aurelius87 said:
Western societies have a tendency to deem that their way of life, their poltiical system, their freedoms and their culture are essentially "western." But I think quite differently. In my opinion, the so called western norms like democracy, rule of reason, consumerism, and human rights are universal values applicable regardless of race and creed. In this sense, Far Eastern countries like Korea and Japan are not very different from Europe or America. Even China, which boasts of its unique civilization and culture, share many common traits with Western societies and are insatiable consumers of Western style pop culture.

However, the Islamic world is very conservative and it seems to me that they are caged in a world centuries past. Kemal Ataturk, being perhaps, the only exception. Some say that western imperialism is to blame. But most Asian countries were also victims of imperialism, yet they overcame much of premodern norms and vices. East Asians in particular were obssessed with the idea of catching up with the West and in a sense they did it. As a result, South Korea and Japan are far wealthier and prosperous than most European countries except for UK, France or Germany (Well, Japan is wealthier than Germany or France, I have to admit).

Some others say that their religion is the main obstacle to modernization. Yet, during the Ottoman Empire, there were a fair number of progressive reformers who wanted to imitate Napoleonic France. The Young Ottomans were especially interested in science and constitutionalism. They even advocated for the creation of parliament. They didn't think of waging Jihad or being a puritan Muslim.

Nevertheless, many Islamic countries of the modern world are increasingly becoming more religious. Human rights, gender equality, AKA liberal values are being more and more marginalized. Those who stand up against conservative or extremist Islam are being threatened or killed. More surprisingly, those who were raised in Western societies are more radicalized than their compatriots in the middle East or North Africa.

Why? it is very difficult to understand.
Click to expand...



I wish I knew.


I've talked extensively with friends who have spent time in the middle east... mostly soldiers, yes, but often involved in training security forces, and also medical contractors.

There's a vast difference in mindset, for most. Some of it is religious, a lot of it is cultural and bound up in different versions of tribalism. Add a large helping of paranoia and a tablespoon of superstition.

They're not all like that, but far too many are.

One thing I'm told is that they don't share information. When field maintenance manuals are issued out, the officer in charge does not distribute them; he hoards them, and the knowledge they contain, the better to make himself invaluable. If he shares them with anyone, it is only close relatives or allies, and even that is rare. Whereas in western units every tank has a service manual in it, the information is shared so the ability to do field maintenance is robust and spread among many. This information hoarding appears to be widespread habit affecting far more than just military units.

It was noted that a certain Arab soldier closed his eyes every time he fired his weapon; when asked why, he said that it would be blasphemous to actually aim, since Allah is the only one who can determine whether the shot should hit or not. Nor was this sort of problem rare.


OTOH there was a time, in the 50s and 60s, when it appeared that the Arabic world was becoming Westernized and embracing "western values"... but somehow this reversed itself some time in the 70s or early 80s and I really don't know why. Perhaps the modernization didn't have sufficiently broad based support and empowered the reactions to... well, reject modernity.


I don't have the answer.... even if we understood it all 100% that doesn't mean there's a viable solution. Unfortunately.
 
aurelius87 said:
Why? it is very difficult to understand.
Click to expand...

In a word? "Theocracy".

Religious based ruling governments are very resistant to any change that they feel threatens their power. Anything perceived as "progressive" , regardless of its benefits to the base will always be viewed with suspicion unless it can be packaged as a part of its dogma and gets the holy seal of approval.

In some respects, many Islamic theocracies of today are not much different than the catholic church during its inquisition period...its a bit of a cyclic argument.
1. the word cannot be questioned.
2. to question the word is heresy
3. if the word makes no sense and contradicts itself, see rule #1 and #2.

Most religions operate in this manner....the easy way out of contradictions to label them "Holy mysteries that only god understands".
 
As I understand it, it goes something like this:

1. Islam and those who follow it are the ultimate good and superior to all others, and this cannot be questioned.
2. The West is more prosperous and has much better technology and greater influence in the world.
3. Since 2 cannot be the result of the West being superior in religion, culture, ideology or etc, it must be that the West is keeping the Islamic/Arabic world down by force and conspiracy and manipulation, in effect "stealing the greatness that rightfully belongs to Islam and Islamic cultures."

Therefore the West must be destroyed to make way for Islam to take on the greatness that is its natural due.



Add in all those cultural and religious attitudes I mentioned above and it become hard to see a peaceful way of resolving things. I wish it were otherwise.
 
East is East & West is West ...

aurelius87 said:
Western societies have a tendency to deem that their way of life, their poltiical system, their freedoms and their culture are essentially "western." But I think quite differently. In my opinion, the so called western norms like democracy, rule of reason, consumerism, and human rights are universal values applicable regardless of race and creed. In this sense, Far Eastern countries like Korea and Japan are not very different from Europe or America. Even China, which boasts of its unique civilization and culture, share many common traits with Western societies and are insatiable consumers of Western style pop culture.

...
Click to expand...

I think Western values are republican forms of government & the rule of law. Consumerism is much later, in the case of the US, going back to the 1920s CE, the decade of the stock market crash & the Depression. The struggle for human rights in the US was an outgrowth of the Civil War, although the campaign for equal legal treatment for Blacks in the South didn’t become a national priority until the 1960s.

Yes, Korea & Japan & China are very different from the Western countries – although there is convergence on road nets & airports & similar external signs of an industrialized country. The languages & religions & cultural/political attitudes – especially regarding the role of individuals in the society & the polity – are profoundly different between the East & the West. Japan is a great consumer of Western culture – but even there, the facets they pick up are adapted to the rest of Japanese culture. I don’t see any great danger of Japan ceasing to exist as a cultural identity – their physical continuation as a people may be in some doubt because of the demographic trends there since WWII – but that’s a different story.
 
Re: East is East & West is West ...

Because they spend more time policing people's personal lives than they do on developing technology.
 
Was Islam a necessary prologue?

kitsune said:
It's a cyclical thing. They were once far ahead of the West in terms of science and medicine. And tolerance. And they were a major repository of Greek literature and philosophy that they passed on the the Europeans when the the Europeans were ready to receive it (see,"Renaissance"). They have since fallen behind for many reasons. Religious fundamentalism and discord being one of them. Christian fundamentalism shows great promise in pushing the West toward what the Islamic world has become.
Click to expand...

The Islamic World has been failing in the West since 1500 CE or so. 500 years is a longish time in human terms. If the rise & fall of civilizations were cyclic, I would think that Islam would have risen again in the intervening years. Yes, Islam in Spain was fairly tolerant – they were @ their height in the West then, after near 800 years in charge of lots of Spain – which may have had something to do with it.

Did Islam hold Greek & Roman literature & philosophy in trust for the West? That’s a nice thought – but Islam never seems to have been very interested in the cultures & languages & religions they encountered in their travels. They navigated all over the known World - & they adopted & named stars, constellations, related devices, chemistry & related – but I don’t know that they ever speculated about other moral & political arrangements than the one they had. So I think it was more coincidence that Western monasteries found Greek & Roman classics among the holdings of Islam.

Christian fundamentalism is fairly recent – dating to the 1860s CE in the US, as I recall. If Christian fundamentalism were going to tear the West apart, it would have already happened – something like the Roman Catholic/Protestant wars during Martin Luther’s time. (& I think there the church got involved in nationalist power struggles, as the merchant class & guilds struggled for political & economic power as Christianity evolved into feudalism. There was also a move to vernacular languages, & the printing press helped disseminate tracts & ideas, newspapers, etc.)
 
Re: Was Islam a necessary prologue?

southwest88 said:
The Islamic World has been failing in the West since 1500 CE or so. 500 years is a longish time in human terms. If the rise & fall of civilizations were cyclic, I would think that Islam would have risen again in the intervening years. Yes, Islam in Spain was fairly tolerant – they were @ their height in the West then, after near 800 years in charge of lots of Spain – which may have had something to do with it.

Did Islam hold Greek & Roman literature & philosophy in trust for the West? That’s a nice thought – but Islam never seems to have been very interested in the cultures & languages & religions they encountered in their travels. They navigated all over the known World - & they adopted & named stars, constellations, related devices, chemistry & related – but I don’t know that they ever speculated about other moral & political arrangements than the one they had. So I think it was more coincidence that Western monasteries found Greek & Roman classics among the holdings of Islam.

Christian fundamentalism is fairly recent – dating to the 1860s CE in the US, as I recall. If Christian fundamentalism were going to tear the West apart, it would have already happened – something like the Roman Catholic/Protestant wars during Martin Luther’s time. (& I think there the church got involved in nationalist power struggles, as the merchant class & guilds struggled for political & economic power as Christianity evolved into feudalism. There was also a move to vernacular languages, & the printing press helped disseminate tracts & ideas, newspapers, etc.)
Click to expand...
ost

Nice post, thank you. I'll try to provide a good response.
 
Too kind

kitsune said:
ost

Nice post, thank you. I'll try to provide a good response.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Yah, these are big topics, worthy of taking a little more time & attention over. Good conversation!
 
Polar Bum said:
In a word? "Theocracy".

Religious based ruling governments are very resistant to any change that they feel threatens their power. Anything perceived as "progressive" , regardless of its benefits to the base will always be viewed with suspicion unless it can be packaged as a part of its dogma and gets the holy seal of approval.

In some respects, many Islamic theocracies of today are not much different than the catholic church during its inquisition period...its a bit of a cyclic argument.
1. the word cannot be questioned.
2. to question the word is heresy
3. if the word makes no sense and contradicts itself, see rule #1 and #2.

Most religions operate in this manner....the easy way out of contradictions to label them "Holy mysteries that only god understands".
Click to expand...

I think that's the reason. It's also the reason I would never vote for a politician that claims that they will put the bible before the Constitution.
 
Re: East is East & West is West ...

They don't catch up because they don't need to catch up. Within their sphere of influence, they are unchallenged and unchallengable. And since a lot of them are sitting on deposits of oil, places like Dubai and Saudi Arabia in particular have no need to change, they're swimming in money and can do whatever they want to do.
 
Re: East is East & West is West ...

RetiredUSN said:
Because they spend more time policing people's personal lives than they do on developing technology.
Click to expand...

Technology is hardly every the answer. Islam now I would say is what Christianity was in the 13th. century.
 
Re: East is East & West is West ...

Glowpun said:
Technology is hardly every the answer. Islam now I would say is what Christianity was in the 13th. century.
Click to expand...

Before Christianity was civilized by secular society. Islam will eventually have to face the same secularization, but right now, at least outside of the western world, it hasn't been.
 
Goshin said:
I wish I knew.


I've talked extensively with friends who have spent time in the middle east... mostly soldiers, yes, but often involved in training security forces, and also medical contractors.

There's a vast difference in mindset, for most. Some of it is religious, a lot of it is cultural and bound up in different versions of tribalism. Add a large helping of paranoia and a tablespoon of superstition.

They're not all like that, but far too many are.

One thing I'm told is that they don't share information. When field maintenance manuals are issued out, the officer in charge does not distribute them; he hoards them, and the knowledge they contain, the better to make himself invaluable. If he shares them with anyone, it is only close relatives or allies, and even that is rare. Whereas in western units every tank has a service manual in it, the information is shared so the ability to do field maintenance is robust and spread among many. This information hoarding appears to be widespread habit affecting far more than just military units.

It was noted that a certain Arab soldier closed his eyes every time he fired his weapon; when asked why, he said that it would be blasphemous to actually aim, since Allah is the only one who can determine whether the shot should hit or not. Nor was this sort of problem rare.


OTOH there was a time, in the 50s and 60s, when it appeared that the Arabic world was becoming Westernized and embracing "western values"... but somehow this reversed itself some time in the 70s or early 80s and I really don't know why. Perhaps the modernization didn't have sufficiently broad based support and empowered the reactions to... well, reject modernity.


I don't have the answer.... even if we understood it all 100% that doesn't mean there's a viable solution. Unfortunately.
Click to expand...

Which security forces were they working with Goshin? What Country?
 
Serenity said:
Which security forces were they working with Goshin? What Country?
Click to expand...


Iraq and Afghanistan mostly. One guy that went to Afghanistan as a contract medic and was helping set up some kind of emergency medical services. The rest mostly Iraqi or Kurdish security/military trainers.

There was one guy who was in a different (US allied) country, but right now I can't remember the name. Might have been Pakistan, but I was thinking it was one of the smaller ones. Kuwait? Slipped my mind.
 
Goshin said:
Iraq and Afghanistan mostly. One guy that went to Afghanistan as a contract medic and was helping set up some kind of emergency medical services. The rest mostly Iraqi or Kurdish security/military trainers.

There was one guy who was in a different (US allied) country, but right now I can't remember the name. Might have been Pakistan, but I was thinking it was one of the smaller ones. Kuwait? Slipped my mind.
Click to expand...

I have been living and working in his region for over a decade now; What you have described is vey true, and very prevalent.

The cultural/social/religious dynamic is the antithesis of the West; which is one of the many reasons I see failure in "Nation Building here.....you cannot apply western values, priorities, and concerns to this area....you may as well be trying to describe color to those born blind; western values and norms are a completely alien concept to them...as foreign to them as their cultural norms are to the west.
 
Re: East is East & West is West ...

Because it is not that difficult to understand. First, progress takes time. People might have to hear it but things move slowly in development. The history of the world proves that on so many levels and occasions it is astounding.

Secondly, until literacy and personal freedom are a staple of a country, free expression and progression in thinking is not going to happen.

Thirdly, the religious leaders of those societies would love to keep their flock dumb and as backward as possible because it gives them control and power.

Fourth, the governments/leaders of those countries do not want free thought or liberal ideas. Their power is built on the religious leaders and government leaders to collude to keep themselves powerful and in office. Look at the biggest buddy of the West in the region, Saudi Arabia. Their leaders do not want democracy, free thought and religious freedom. Hell no, they want to keep their people stupid but satisfied financially (to a certain degree), they want to keep women down because often women are the fuel that burns growth and free thinking, not men and they want to keep an ironclad grip on power and none of that will ever still be possible if their country catches up with the West.

Fifth, people have to want to grow and that can be a very scary thing. You may have it terrible but you are set in your ways and doing things differently is scary to many people.

And also, too rapid development that is not supported by the majority of the people will only lead to a backlash and a deepening in conservative anti progressive thoughts and actions and a counter revolution. That is what happened in Iran which was a very "western" Islamic country but not fully supported by the majority and also somewhat imposed on the actions of the dictator/leader of that country. The counter revolution to his western supported government lead to the Ayatollah's seizure of power in Iran.
 
Polar Bum said:
I have been living and working in his region for over a decade now; What you have described is vey true, and very prevalent.

The cultural/social/religious dynamic is the antithesis of the West; which is one of the many reasons I see failure in "Nation Building here.....you cannot apply western values, priorities, and concerns to this area....you may as well be trying to describe color to those born blind; western values and norms are a completely alien concept to them...as foreign to them as their cultural norms are to the west.
Click to expand...

I came away from 7 years in Egypt thinking the same thing.
 
Is there a Martin Luther in Islam?

Cephus said:
Before Christianity was civilized by secular society. Islam will eventually have to face the same secularization, but right now, at least outside of the western world, it hasn't been.
Click to expand...

If Christianity was the big difference between pre-Constantine Europe & Christian Europe, then it’s hard to say that Christianity was civilized by secular society. There was secular society before Christianity – Greek & Roman, notably (stripped of their religious underpinnings, of course). & various incarnations of Egyptian, plus Phoenician, Persian, & so on. I tend to think the other way – that Christianity provided an organizing principle & an ideology/theology that helped fuse disparate peoples into a much more organic entity in Europe.

It was probably a mistake for Christianity to gain secular power – but Emperor Constantine was desperate – the Roman Empire was crumbling, & he needed to shore it up. As institutional Christianity became a king-maker in the various kingdoms of Europe, a kind of sclerosis set in, & the Church became confused. The Reformation blasted away some of the political excesses of the Church - & that’s the process that Islam may need to undergo.

Except that it’s not clear to me that there’s any theological hierarchical center to Islam, like there was to Christianity in the West. Islam seems to focus on correct practice by the believer – one reason that practice is of so much concern to rank & file believers & the religious leaders. There were many reformers in Christianity before Luther – most of them were purged & declared heretic, & died for their faith.

Islam seems very entrenched in everyday experience, & its worldview almost synonymous with the various states that declare themselves to be Islamic. Also unclear – is there an Islamic state? The Quran seems to set up society based on Islamic principles – like Islamic science, finance, banking, etc. There are roles for the religious & the leadership, but the distinctions between the two seem very nebulous.
 
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