Why can't the Islamic world catch up with the modern world?

southwest88 · Sep 15, 2017

It's worked mostly well, so far

RabidAlpaca said:
Of course, as a christian you naturally feel like your religion and dogma are superior to all others and is the sole source of American values. Nothing new.

Yep, there's no place like home.

As for American values - meaning the US, I assume - those are mostly Western European Enlightenment, post-Reformation values. Especially in the areas of economics, politics, society, government, an opening to philosophy & natural science. There are also strands of Greek city-state & Roman republic & empire thought there. That's at the highest levels of education, typically among the elites in the US at the time. There were also some self-educated people who managed to raise themselves in their thinking.

& then there was everybody else - women (who generally weren't educated much, formally), men who didn't meet the criteria for the elite (almost exclusively WASP males with some wealth, often well-connected in their religious denomination), indentured servants, slaves (Native People & Blacks, although the Native People didn't last in those slots), waves of immigrants/colonists looking for a chance at land, families, escape from religious &/or civil authorities, people escaping wars & famine. As a system, it's worked well enough.

& we've expanded the franchise, with considerable pains & effort; & expanded K-12 education opportunities, & college & university is possible for most people who show an interest.

Cephus · Sep 15, 2017

cpwill said:
Yeah... poor attempts at Ad Hominem don't change the fact that religion deeply informs and shapes culture.

Though I appreciate your paean to separation of Church and State. Very Matthew 22 of you

Who cares if cultural delusion means something to people. I only care if what people believe is factually true and in the case of religion, we have no reason whatsoever to think that it is.

southwest88 · Sep 15, 2017

MrWonka said:
...

But I think the reality is that the west has continued to try and impose it's will on the middle east far more so recently that they have on the far east. The vast oil resources that are available in the middle east has kept the west sticking it's nose in places it probably doesn't belong for much longer. The Iranian revolution took place in the late 70's, and the west has been imposing economic sanctions on them ever since.

...

The UK dominated the oil industry in Iran - it was a UK company that pioneered the exploration & drilling, & made the industry profitable there. As UK realized that oil was the key to naval superiority, the UK displaced the company & ran the petroleum industry in Iran directly. Part of that deal was to promise technical & managerial training to the Iranians involved in the industry, & a more equitable share of the profits to Iran. When UK reneged on the deal, Iranian PM Mossadegh nationalized the oil industry.

UK went to Pres. Truman, asking for help - in overthrowing the Iranian government. Truman refused, calling the disagreement an internal matter to Iran. UK then approached president-elect Eisenhower, & pitched the idea to him as fighting Communism. The Dulles brothers were delighted, Eisenhower concurred, & CIA bankrolled & organized a coup. That was in the 1950s, & so the Iranian revolution was a reaction to the reinstallation of the Shah & the establishment of SAVAK. (Plus the US, although we installed & trained SAVAK, never bothered to monitor the situation on the ground there - we were essentially fat, dumb & happy - without any prodding from our friendly regime there.) See All the Shah's men : an American coup and the roots of Middle East terror [book] / Stephen Kinzer. c2003, John Wiley & Sons

stevecanuck · Sep 17, 2017

Re: Is there a Martin Luther in Islam?

southwest88 said:
If Christianity was the big difference between pre-Constantine Europe & Christian Europe, then it’s hard to say that Christianity was civilized by secular society. There was secular society before Christianity – Greek & Roman, notably (stripped of their religious underpinnings, of course). & various incarnations of Egyptian, plus Phoenician, Persian, & so on. I tend to think the other way – that Christianity provided an organizing principle & an ideology/theology that helped fuse disparate peoples into a much more organic entity in Europe.

It was probably a mistake for Christianity to gain secular power – but Emperor Constantine was desperate – the Roman Empire was crumbling, & he needed to shore it up. As institutional Christianity became a king-maker in the various kingdoms of Europe, a kind of sclerosis set in, & the Church became confused. The Reformation blasted away some of the political excesses of the Church - & that’s the process that Islam may need to undergo.

Except that it’s not clear to me that there’s any theological hierarchical center to Islam, like there was to Christianity in the West. Islam seems to focus on correct practice by the believer – one reason that practice is of so much concern to rank & file believers & the religious leaders. There were many reformers in Christianity before Luther – most of them were purged & declared heretic, & died for their faith.

Islam seems very entrenched in everyday experience, & its worldview almost synonymous with the various states that declare themselves to be Islamic. Also unclear – is there an Islamic state? The Quran seems to set up society based on Islamic principles – like Islamic science, finance, banking, etc. There are roles for the religious & the leadership, but the distinctions between the two seem very nebulous.

Right. Neither the Qur'an nor Mohamed, according to hadiths, set up a framework for a hierarchy. To boil it down to it's essence, the Qur'an is a sermon from God telling believers what to think and do. No hierarchy needed. Just obedience to the "clear" and "unerring" word of Mohamed-pretending-to-be-God. Any Islamic state is simply a government that enforces "God's" dictates. Since Mohamed was the one to whom God was communicating, he was naturally the first leader, but after he died without making it crystal clear who should become the new leader (caliph), a predictable power struggle ensued that, luckily enough for us, led to the Sunni/Shia split. Fourteen hundred years later, ISIS aspired to step into the void and create a world wide caliphate, which as you saw, had nothing to do with reformation. Nor should it according to verse 5:3 of the Qur'an which states that God has perfected religion in Islam. It would be blasphemy to change so much as one word.

As to Islamic finance and banking, they are quickly covered in a few verses and amount to little more than a prohibition against usury. Islamic "science" is a joke. It tells us the world is spread before us as a carpet with mountains placed at the corners as tent pegs. When Muslims are confronted with the obvious stupidity of such statements, they simply say God was being metaphorical. How convenient.

Chagos · Sep 17, 2017

Re: Is there a Martin Luther in Islam?

Well, aren't we in the West all just lucky (at least those of us adhering to "our" religion) that we're not suffering the constrictions of having to take the bible (whole or partly) in a metaphorical sense?

Good thing though that we have as little address of banking and finance as the Quran holds, or we'd really have been screwed into putting our money under the mattress.

cpwill · Sep 17, 2017

Cephus said:
Who cares if cultural delusion means something to people. I only care if what people believe is factually true and in the case of religion, we have no reason whatsoever to think that it is.

Hawkeye10 · Sep 17, 2017

Well now we dont exactly know if it is cant or if it is rather wont, remember that lots of Islamists claim that what we label "progress" and "good" is anything but.

I dont know the answer, but this is a huge important question.

Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant.

FastPace · Sep 19, 2017

aurelius87 said:
Western societies have a tendency to deem that their way of life, their poltiical system, their freedoms and their culture are essentially "western." But I think quite differently. In my opinion, the so called western norms like democracy, rule of reason, consumerism, and human rights are universal values applicable regardless of race and creed. In this sense, Far Eastern countries like Korea and Japan are not very different from Europe or America. Even China, which boasts of its unique civilization and culture, share many common traits with Western societies and are insatiable consumers of Western style pop culture.

You are looking at the now (as opposed to trajectories) and you are looking more broadly. Looking broadly is fine for a particular context. But a more micro look (like cities, or individuals) can reveal contradictions about our more broad claims pertaining to our broad looks. Even when speaking about the "West" there is a truth in speaking that broadly, yet equal or greater truth can been spoken of at the more micro level, in this case the "West" can be micro split up into various regions, countries still further, and even at a more micro level to cities (cities can be broken down even further to neighborhoods).

The United States and the Netherlands are both part of the "West" but the two are very different as to at a more micro analysis make the term "West" almost (but not entirely) meaningless. Even in the United States why is Detroit so much worse off than Milwaukee (Detroit was once a booming city, so, its "trajectory" at some point led it to were it is).

There is a school of thought that has been around for at least a decade or so, that suggests cities not countries will be the most important meccas of finance, culture, and power in the 21st Century. So, the country you live in will matter a lot less than the city you live in. As I said, that is a school of thought.

Compare the City of Astana in Muslim Kazakhstan to combined Christian and secular Detroit.

Astana city and Presidential palace kazakhstan

Kazakhstan's futuristic capital (CNN)

Detroit:

How Detroit Became America's Warzone

Journeyman Pictures
Published on Dec 4, 2013

Industrial Ghosts - USA (2013): Unemployment, poverty, gangs and drugs are just a few of the many problems facing the city of Detroit, labelled by some as 'America's warzone'

Journeyman Pictures is incorporated in Europe, in England I believe, so it provides a European or English observation of Detroit.

You know... I took a course in Developmental Economics in university, just out of my own curiosity and for my own human capital, and I learned that economist in this field of economics can use a math formula to gauge how long it will take a developing country to attain the material comfort levels of the US, Europe, Japan, and Australia if said developing country can maintain at least X percent of economic growth per year. Along with some other factors like reinvesting part of the National Income (which is basically equal to a country's GDP) back into the development of its cities and peoples.

Just as you can have a trajectory in a city or a country upward, or in economic terms a right-ward shift on the graph (efficiency), you can have a trajectory downwards in a city or country. Like what was seen in Detroit when it once was a mighty "ancient city of Rome." Detroit has lost a large number of people from its population, although, the ancient City of Rome after Germanic barbarians sacked and became rulers of the city plummeted spectacularly from roughly 1 million people to something like a population of 20,000.

The United States reinvests its National Income into war and conflict.

Casca XV · Sep 20, 2017

RabidAlpaca said:
The common denominator among civilized nations is a secular society and government. In other words, that any individual can choose to follow any religion or school of thought he pleases and be free from persecution for that decision. In the west and in many industrial countries in Asia this right is guaranteed, in much of the middle east, it's not. Most Muslims who grew up in the west are just as peaceful and tolerant as people from any other group, it has little to do with religion and everything to do with culture.

Actually second generation Muslims are statistically more likely to be terrorists than their parents. This is because in some western countries Leftists have imported and given welfare to so many of what they see as potential votes into their countries, that the Muslims don't have to assimilate. The just create a Tax Payer funded Islamic Little Middle Easts Ghettos where they can foment jealously and hate.

I do agree with you that not all cultures are equal, and the one created by Islam is one of the worst. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9vBJCMD69w

FastPace · Sep 20, 2017

Casca XV said:
Actually second generation Muslims are statistically more likely to be terrorists than their parents. This is because in some western countries Leftists have imported and given welfare to so many of what they see as potential votes into their countries, that the Muslims don't have to assimilate. The just create a Tax Payer funded Islamic Little Middle Easts Ghettos where they can foment jealously and hate.

I do agree with you that not all cultures are equal, and the one created by Islam is one of the worst. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9vBJCMD69w

Casca, I do not believe there is one Islamic culture, no more than there is one Christian culture. In fact, I would say modern day Italians share some cultural similarities with Muslim Lebanese for example, and in other ways the Italians have closer cultural similarities with the Anglo-Saxon English. Emotional expressions during funerals for one (the former) and say... a sartorial tradition of men's suits and shoes for the latter. There are of course some general differences as to how Islam and Christianity have impacted the shaping of the societies or communities they overtook. Marital laws being one. Laws pertaining to alcohol consumption (and the bars and cocktail cultures and recipes that developed out of that) being another.

On the other hand, pagan Christian, Muslim, secular (and now even Jewish with Tel Aviv) societies have all created throughout history some impressive cities and/or countries.

Muslims are like Catholics in that they come in a wide range of ethnicities or races. Consequently, it's not merely a religion that impacts a specific peoples culture but their known ethnic culture too.

Americans preach, boast the same claims of cultural superiority between each city or region in the United States as well. Both the East Coast and West Coast claim to be culturally superior to Midwestern and Southern states. People in both LA and Detroit are certain they are superior intellectually and in "coolness" (even if they're homeless and high school drop outs) to every single person in Milwaukee even if that Milwaukeean lives in a mini-mansion and has a doctoral degree and passport they utilize with some regularity. It's a claim people make. That's all it is.

The idea that democracy, and reading ancient Greek literature in the 1700s and 1800s, is why the USA and various Western countries became rich and powerful and not industrialization and exploiting less powerful countries for their resources is idiotic. All of Latin America was on par with the USA during the 1700s and even early 1800s. In fact, some of their great cities like Mexico City was financially and culturally superior to most US cities. What created a massive gap, favoring the USA, was switching radically to industrialization.

I don't think all cultures are equal. Although, never originally "one country" as we know it today, what we might think of as "German culture" (once barbaric and behind much of the Eastern World) eventually became one of the most remarkable cultures on earth in literature, art, philosophy, law, science, and technology. Christianity played a part in that. But in terms of how well countries would end up doing by the 20th century we should not underestimate the impact of switching to industrialization (if they did).

Casca XV · Sep 24, 2017

FastPace said:
Casca, I do not believe there is an Islamic culture, no more than there is one Christian culture. In fact, I would say modern day Italians share some cultural similarities with Muslim Lebanese for example, and in other ways the Italians have closer cultural similarities with the Anglo-Saxon English. Emotional expressions during funerals for one (the former) and say... a sartorial tradition of men's suits and shoes for the latter. There are of course some general differences as to how Islam and Christianity have impacted the shaping of the societies or communities they overtook. Marital laws being one. Laws pertaining to alcohol consumption (and the bars and cocktail cultures and recipes that developed out of that) being another.

On the other hand, pagan Christian, Muslim, secular (and now even Jewish with Tel Aviv) societies have all created throughout history some impressive cities and/or countries.

Muslims are like Catholics in that they come in a wide range of ethnicities or races. Consequently, it's not merely a religion that impacts a specific peoples culture but their known ethnic culture too.

Americans preach, boast the same claims of cultural superiority between each city or region in the United States as well. Both the East Coast and West Coast claim to be culturally superior to Midwestern and Southern states. People in both LA and Detroit are certain they are superior intellectually and in "coolness" (even if they're homeless and high school drop outs) to every single person in Milwaukee even if that Milwaukeean lives in a mini-mansion and has a doctoral degree and passport they utilize with some regularity. It's a claim people make. That's all it is.

The idea that democracy, and reading ancient Greek literature in the 1700s and 1800s, is why the USA and various Western countries became rich and powerful and not industrialization and exploiting less powerful countries for their resources is idiotic. All of Latin America was on par with the USA during the 1700s and even early 1800s. In fact, some of their great cities like Mexico City was financially and culturally superior to most US cities. What created a massive gap, favoring the USA, was switching radically to industrialization.

I don't think all cultures are equal. Although, never originally "one country" as we know it today, what we might think of as "German culture" (once barbaric and behind much of the Eastern World) eventually became one of the most remarkable cultures on earth in literature, art, philosophy, law, science, and technology. Christianity played a part in that. But in terms of how well countries would end up doing by the 20th century we should not underestimate the impact of switching to industrialization (if they did).

Yes, There is an Islamic culture that believes anyone who is not them should be dead. And there are none practicing Muslims just like there were none-Nazi Germans or none practicing Catholics. But they are not the majority or the problems.

Bark · Sep 24, 2017

aurelius87 said:
Western societies have a tendency to deem that their way of life, their poltiical system, their freedoms and their culture are essentially "western." But I think quite differently. In my opinion, the so called western norms like democracy, rule of reason, consumerism, and human rights are universal values applicable regardless of race and creed. In this sense, Far Eastern countries like Korea and Japan are not very different from Europe or America. Even China, which boasts of its unique civilization and culture, share many common traits with Western societies and are insatiable consumers of Western style pop culture.

However, the Islamic world is very conservative and it seems to me that they are caged in a world centuries past. Kemal Ataturk, being perhaps, the only exception. Some say that western imperialism is to blame. But most Asian countries were also victims of imperialism, yet they overcame much of premodern norms and vices. East Asians in particular were obssessed with the idea of catching up with the West and in a sense they did it. As a result, South Korea and Japan are far wealthier and prosperous than most European countries except for UK, France or Germany (Well, Japan is wealthier than Germany or France, I have to admit).

Some others say that their religion is the main obstacle to modernization. Yet, during the Ottoman Empire, there were a fair number of progressive reformers who wanted to imitate Napoleonic France. The Young Ottomans were especially interested in science and constitutionalism. They even advocated for the creation of parliament. They didn't think of waging Jihad or being a puritan Muslim.

Nevertheless, many Islamic countries of the modern world are increasingly becoming more religious. Human rights, gender equality, AKA liberal values are being more and more marginalized. Those who stand up against conservative or extremist Islam are being threatened or killed. More surprisingly, those who were raised in Western societies are more radicalized than their compatriots in the middle East or North Africa.

Why? it is very difficult to understand.

I am going to use Pakistan because it shows how western influence created the current situation. Iran because it shows how war created the current situation. Afghanistan because it shows how both did it.

Pakistan in the 70s was full of hippies and nightclubs. Women did not really wear the hijab much. The whole culture was moving toward consumerism and away from orthodoxy. Then the Zias and Bhuttos came into power. Western Businesses began bribing them and the government money they controlled went to parties and travel rather than roads and schools. Finally everything had slipped into decay. The Saudis saw their chance and took it. The Taliban came in with Saudi oil money and fixed roads and schools. Then they turned into tyrants.

Iran voted for a secular premier. He managed to get the Ayatollahs to vote to remove themselves from power. Then the bombs fell and really haven't stopped.

Afghanistan is a fairly frontier kind of wild west. So corrupt politicians don't have a huge influence, it is and always has been mostly tribal. Problem is they have massive stores of lithium. So aside from bribes and such they also send bombs.

Let me argue this. Lets say 10 of the worlds powers spent 50 or 60 years bribing Greg Abbott and Rick Perry. and spent 50 years dropping bombs in Texas. Do you think there would be a great civilization in Texas? When bombs fall and pols are bribed all you really have left is guns and God.

You ignored how western how quick the Gulf States became. UAE, Qatar...

Fenton Lum · Sep 24, 2017

aurelius87 said:
Western societies have a tendency to deem that their way of life, their poltiical system, their freedoms and their culture are essentially "western." But I think quite differently. In my opinion, the so called western norms like democracy, rule of reason, consumerism, and human rights are universal values applicable regardless of race and creed. In this sense, Far Eastern countries like Korea and Japan are not very different from Europe or America. Even China, which boasts of its unique civilization and culture, share many common traits with Western societies and are insatiable consumers of Western style pop culture.

However, the Islamic world is very conservative and it seems to me that they are caged in a world centuries past. Kemal Ataturk, being perhaps, the only exception. Some say that western imperialism is to blame. But most Asian countries were also victims of imperialism, yet they overcame much of premodern norms and vices. East Asians in particular were obssessed with the idea of catching up with the West and in a sense they did it. As a result, South Korea and Japan are far wealthier and prosperous than most European countries except for UK, France or Germany (Well, Japan is wealthier than Germany or France, I have to admit).

Some others say that their religion is the main obstacle to modernization. Yet, during the Ottoman Empire, there were a fair number of progressive reformers who wanted to imitate Napoleonic France. The Young Ottomans were especially interested in science and constitutionalism. They even advocated for the creation of parliament. They didn't think of waging Jihad or being a puritan Muslim.

Nevertheless, many Islamic countries of the modern world are increasingly becoming more religious. Human rights, gender equality, AKA liberal values are being more and more marginalized. Those who stand up against conservative or extremist Islam are being threatened or killed. More surprisingly, those who were raised in Western societies are more radicalized than their compatriots in the middle East or North Africa.

Why? it is very difficult to understand.

We're doing all we can to usher them into the modern western perceptual reality. We supply arms to the virulent Wahabists, including violating international law to provide cluster bombs known to have a 90%casualty rate in the field for them to rain down on Yemen. We are supporting al Qaida, al Nusra and ISIS in Syria. We are militarily occupying much of the middle east indefinitely and killing civilians along the way for access to resources and regional wealth extraction.

Is this not typical for how the west has always brought civilization to the heathens?

Casca XV · Sep 25, 2017

FastPace said:
Casca, I do not believe there is one Islamic culture, no more than there is one Christian culture. In fact, I would say modern day Italians share some cultural similarities with Muslim Lebanese for example, and in other ways the Italians have closer cultural similarities with the Anglo-Saxon English. Emotional expressions during funerals for one (the former) and say... a sartorial tradition of men's suits and shoes for the latter. There are of course some general differences as to how Islam and Christianity have impacted the shaping of the societies or communities they overtook. Marital laws being one. Laws pertaining to alcohol consumption (and the bars and cocktail cultures and recipes that developed out of that) being another.

On the other hand, pagan Christian, Muslim, secular (and now even Jewish with Tel Aviv) societies have all created throughout history some impressive cities and/or countries.

Muslims are like Catholics in that they come in a wide range of ethnicities or races. Consequently, it's not merely a religion that impacts a specific peoples culture but their known ethnic culture too.

Americans preach, boast the same claims of cultural superiority between each city or region in the United States as well. Both the East Coast and West Coast claim to be culturally superior to Midwestern and Southern states. People in both LA and Detroit are certain they are superior intellectually and in "coolness" (even if they're homeless and high school drop outs) to every single person in Milwaukee even if that Milwaukeean lives in a mini-mansion and has a doctoral degree and passport they utilize with some regularity. It's a claim people make. That's all it is.

The idea that democracy, and reading ancient Greek literature in the 1700s and 1800s, is why the USA and various Western countries became rich and powerful and not industrialization and exploiting less powerful countries for their resources is idiotic. All of Latin America was on par with the USA during the 1700s and even early 1800s. In fact, some of their great cities like Mexico City was financially and culturally superior to most US cities. What created a massive gap, favoring the USA, was switching radically to industrialization.

I don't think all cultures are equal. Although, never originally "one country" as we know it today, what we might think of as "German culture" (once barbaric and behind much of the Eastern World) eventually became one of the most remarkable cultures on earth in literature, art, philosophy, law, science, and technology. Christianity played a part in that. But in terms of how well countries would end up doing by the 20th century we should not underestimate the impact of switching to industrialization (if they did).

Feel free to name an Islamic controlled country where the general population doesn't live in 3rd world conditions.

ataraxia · Sep 25, 2017

Casca XV said:
Feel free to name an Islamic controlled country where the general population doesn't live in 3rd world conditions.

I had the opportunity to visit Turkey a few years ago. It's a neat country. Istanbul is a very beautiful, vibrant city. Culturally and historically a very rich place.

Our tour also took us to Greece next door. I didn't see that much difference between the two, culturally, economically, socially- except that perhaps Istanbul was a much bigger city than Athens, and probably economically better off these days. And also maybe there were parts of town where there were more women covering up their face with a hijab. But even their food was almost identical. In Greece they call it Gyros, in Istanbul they call it Doner Kebap. But they both call a Baklava a Baklava.

But that was over 8 years ago. I understand Erdogan is taking the country in a more Islamic religious direction these days, so I don't know how it's changed. Whatever it is, I am sure Ataturk is rolling in his grave right now watching these changes.

"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men. "
-Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, 1926

ataraxia · Sep 25, 2017

aurelius87 said:
Western societies have a tendency to deem that their way of life, their poltiical system, their freedoms and their culture are essentially "western." But I think quite differently. In my opinion, the so called western norms like democracy, rule of reason, consumerism, and human rights are universal values applicable regardless of race and creed. In this sense, Far Eastern countries like Korea and Japan are not very different from Europe or America. Even China, which boasts of its unique civilization and culture, share many common traits with Western societies and are insatiable consumers of Western style pop culture.

However, the Islamic world is very conservative and it seems to me that they are caged in a world centuries past. Kemal Ataturk, being perhaps, the only exception. Some say that western imperialism is to blame. But most Asian countries were also victims of imperialism, yet they overcame much of premodern norms and vices. East Asians in particular were obssessed with the idea of catching up with the West and in a sense they did it. As a result, South Korea and Japan are far wealthier and prosperous than most European countries except for UK, France or Germany (Well, Japan is wealthier than Germany or France, I have to admit).

Some others say that their religion is the main obstacle to modernization. Yet, during the Ottoman Empire, there were a fair number of progressive reformers who wanted to imitate Napoleonic France. The Young Ottomans were especially interested in science and constitutionalism. They even advocated for the creation of parliament. They didn't think of waging Jihad or being a puritan Muslim.

Nevertheless, many Islamic countries of the modern world are increasingly becoming more religious. Human rights, gender equality, AKA liberal values are being more and more marginalized. Those who stand up against conservative or extremist Islam are being threatened or killed. More surprisingly, those who were raised in Western societies are more radicalized than their compatriots in the middle East or North Africa.

Why? it is very difficult to understand.

The European enlightenment happened here in the west. But it's a young and fragile social experiment. Before you get too complacent about the superiority of the west and how backwards they are over there in the middle east , consider that the ideals of the European enlightenment are now under siege right back here in the west where they were born:

“God’s word is true. I’ve come to understand that. All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell. It’s lies to try to keep me and all the folks who are taught that from understanding that they need a savior. There’s a lot of scientific data that I found out as a scientist that actually show that this is really a young Earth. I believe that the Earth is about 9,000 years old. I believe that it was created in six days as we know them. That’s what the Bible says. And what I’ve come to learn is that it’s the manufacturer’s handbook, is what I call it. It teaches us how to run our lives individually. How to run our families, how to run our churches. But it teaches us how to run all our public policy and everything in society. And that’s the reason, as your congressman, I hold the Holy Bible as being the major directions to me of how I vote in Washington, D.C., and I’ll continue to do that.”
_Paul Broun, (R-GA) in campaign for the house 2010 (he won, and ended up on the house Science committee!)

"God truly has shed his grace on thee -- on this country... And then, hearing any leader declare that America isn't a Christian nation...Lest anyone try to convince you that God should be separated from the state, our founding fathers, they were believers!"
-Sarah Palin, in response to Obama saying that this country was welcoming to Hindus, Muslims, and Jews, and was not exclusively a Christian nation

Casca XV · Sep 25, 2017

ataraxia said:
I had the opportunity to visit Turkey a few years ago. It's a neat country. Istanbul is a very beautiful, vibrant city. Culturally and historically a very rich place.

Our tour also took us to Greece next door. I didn't see that much difference between the two, culturally, economically, socially- except that perhaps Istanbul was a much bigger city than Athens, and probably economically better off these days. And also maybe there were parts of town where there were more women covering up their face with a hijab. But even their food was almost identical. In Greece they call it Gyros, in Istanbul they call it Doner Kebap. But they both call a Baklava a Baklava.

But that was over 8 years ago. I understand Erdogan is taking the country in a more Islamic religious direction these days, so I don't know how it's changed. Whatever it is, I am sure Ataturk is rolling in his grave right now watching these changes.

View attachment 67223155

Yes, Turkey being the most secular of the Middle East Muslim countries is the tallest of those midgets. Like Mexico it has many beautiful tourist areas but for the most part it's still a 3rd world s**t hole.

ataraxia · Sep 25, 2017

Casca XV said:
Yes, Turkey being the most secular of the Middle East Muslim countries is the tallest of those midgets. Like Mexico it has many beautiful tourist areas but for the most part it's still a 3rd world s**t hole.

It's not that different from Greece or most other Eastern European countries today.

ataraxia · Sep 25, 2017

Casca XV said:
Yes, Turkey being the most secular of the Middle East Muslim countries is the tallest of those midgets. Like Mexico it has many beautiful tourist areas but for the most part it's still a 3rd world s**t hole.

I find it hard to laugh at them too hard or look down my nose at them too much when secularism and the ideals of the enlightenment are under such serious siege right here at home in the USA. It's not at all clear the west will be able to keep this up much longer either the way things are going with our culture and society these days.

blackjack50 · Sep 25, 2017

RabidAlpaca said:
The common denominator among civilized nations is a secular society and government. In other words, that any individual can choose to follow any religion or school of thought he pleases and be free from persecution for that decision. In the west and in many industrial countries in Asia this right is guaranteed, in much of the middle east, it's not. Most Muslims who grew up in the west are just as peaceful and tolerant as people from any other group, it has little to do with religion and everything to do with culture.

Yes. I agree. I have a little more insight into this. At least, my personal view. They are the crossroads of empires. Thus the religion itself has never been afforded the opportunity to adjust to a more peaceful lifestyle. And as you say...the Muslims that are born and raised in western societies do adapt. I don't believe they are able to fully do so though. Not yet. I think that when the Middle East stabilizes...we will see Islam adopt an easier ability to tolerate secularism. Christianity was able to explode and grow with democracy and secularism. Islam did not have the opportunity.

Well said.

blackjack50 · Sep 25, 2017

ataraxia said:
I find it hard to laugh at them too hard or look down my nose at them too much when secularism and the ideals of the enlightenment are under such serious siege right here at home in the USA. It's not at all clear the west will be able to keep this up much longer either the way things are going with our culture and society these days.

The idea that secularism is under siege compared to the Middle East is laughable. You don't have a sword being put to your neck for being a non believer. There is no comparison to western societies. Not without seriously divorcing from reality and ignoring the level of radicalism shown on the scale it is shown in the Mid East be a wester (or eastern) society.

ataraxia · Sep 25, 2017

blackjack50 said:
I think that when the Middle East stabilizes...we will see Islam adopt an easier ability to tolerate secularism. Christianity was able to explode and grow with democracy and secularism. Islam did not have the opportunity.

Well said.

Well it's more like it learned to be flexible and adapt to secularism. But really, compared to its power and status before, in the dark ages, with the church in full political and social control of all society, Christianity has been quite declawed and defanged in the modern world. At least, so far. More recently, though, it may be making a comeback with a vengeance.

ataraxia · Sep 25, 2017

blackjack50 said:
The idea that secularism is under siege compared to the Middle East is laughable. You don't have a sword being put to your neck for being a non believer. There is no comparison to western societies. Not without seriously divorcing from reality and ignoring the level of radicalism shown on the scale it is shown in the Mid East be a wester (or eastern) society.

No I agree with that. But there are some very concerning movements in the other direction in the west these days. Whether these are just exceptions or part of a larger trend remains to be seen.

Here is a very interesting book I read a few years ago looking into the causes of the rise of fundamentalism in the modern world- not just the Islamic world, but also in the Christian and Jewish ones as well.

www.amazon.com/Battle-God-Karen-Armstrong/dp/0345391691

Yes, even in the Jewish world, religious fundamentalism has seen a serious rise since the 1970s or so. The founders of Israel: Golda Meyer, Moshe Dayan, etc... were very secular in their worldview and outlook. They would have been shocked to see how Jewish fundamentalism and the ultra-orthodox were taking over Israel today.

blackjack50 · Sep 25, 2017

ataraxia said:
Well it's more like it learned to be flexible and adapt to secularism. But really, compared to its power and status before, in the dark ages, with the church in full political and social control of all society, Christianity has been quite declawed and defanged in the modern world. At least, so far. More recently, though, it may be making a comeback with a vengeance.

Not even remotely the case. The state would never allow it...and there are no standing Christian armies to defend it. Nor would there be. Not unless government decided that Christians should no longer exist. Then there would and should be. Christian had dominance, but the reformation and then the introduction of Protestantism...tolerance was a must.

FastPace · Sep 25, 2017

Casca XV said:
Feel free to name an Islamic controlled country where the general population doesn't live in 3rd world conditions.

Qatar.

I've been in Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, and Dubai. The latter two I was extremely impressed with. Albeit, they use Filipinos and East Indians for low wage service jobs the way we use Mexicans in the United States.

(But apparently the labor laws are far better here in the USA--looking at videos I see lots of East Indians get mistreated and screwed in Abu Dhabi and Dubai in not just wages but rights and living conditions. Nonetheless, the Arab *citizens* of those two city-states live so magical in luxury that it makes Milwaukee look like a 3rd world ghetto in comparison.)

I have very fond memories of Abu Dhabi and Dubai. Abu Dhabi I liked the best. I felt very safer there too. More safe than I ever have--EVER--in Milwaukee.

Qatar: A tiny country asserts powerful influence

Why can't the Islamic world catch up with the modern world?

Buttermilk Man