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Transgenderism vs Christianity

It at one time was considered to be...just because the 'experts' have changed their minds, that doesn't change a thing...who knows what they'll say tomorrow?
Jonathan Haidt inadvertently brings some of this to light when he points out the degree of group think the field is vulnerable and subject to.

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I see it more like someone says to themselves, "i wish i wasn't so overweight," and so they go and lose weight.

No, they are trying to reach for something they cannot naturally be. You can naturally be thinner, or stronger, or faster, or smarter. You can't change your ethnicity, gender, species, etc. You can only change your appearance.


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Respectfully (the feeling is mutual), you are repeating a feeling that contradicts physical reality :(. Repeating it does nothing but demonstrate that you honestly feel it.



Yup. I do not think we are likely to help you achieve that by reinforcing brokenness rather than trying to heal it. :(

You pointed out once that we had no "mind-fix" so the"body-fix" was the fix available. I can understand that. As someone who thinks it's not a healing, though, I just can't be satisfied with it or recommend it to others.

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I can appreciate your discomfort in supporting a path you disagree with, but I ask you this earnestly,

You have a friend come to you, and you know they have the following options:

Following the Transition and a high chance of happiness
or
Trying to repress such feelings and a high chance of misery...

How would you advise them?
 
Screw the church(s). They have enough rattling bones in their closets to cover up. And to be out picking on transsexuals and gays?

Pure bigotry!

If Jesus ever did come back, he would be freaking pissed.

Rattling bones about what, that they protected homosexuals and accept transsexuals?

Jesus was very morally conservative and the Christian Churches today are far more patient than the actual Churches run by the Apostles when they were alive.

Churches are like professional sports teams and militaries. Most athletes and military personnel want the easiest practices and training. They prefer being undisciplined. Imagine an Army Rangers Battalion with a low set bar for membership. Imagine the Green Bay Packers with training camps easier than what you find among grade school children. So, you can judge Churches by their success rates of creating saints, just like military outfits at creating remarkable soldiers, just like sports teams producing champion athletes.

Vince Lombardi by the way was a hardcore Catholic and a hardcore football coach. I believe the dude still served at Mass even as coach of the Green Bay Packers. :shock:

But the Church also offers mercy. Far more so than any business, sports team, or military outfit. But it sets a high bar, as one Catholic Priest explained to me, the Church is fully aware few to no people will live reaching all those high bars set at all phases of their lives. I've confessed sins to priests--repeatedly the same sins over and over again at that--which would have gotten me fired from a top law firm, kicked out the Navy SEALs, and thrown out the Green Bay Packers. Because I failed to reach the high bars so many times. I barley made the lowest bars set by the most debauched liberals on earth. But the mercy of the Church through the Priests still granted me absolution.

It is extremely hard to get officially excommunicated from the Catholic Church. I mean extremely difficult. You be a transsexual, pray to the devil, murder a child, knowingly spread HIV and you still wouldn't get excommunicated. But the Catholic Church is not going to lower its high bars just for said person(s).

By the way, since the 1960s there has been a break down in the discipline of the Catholic Priesthood. Some Orthodox lay people have noted as one thing they notice wrong with Catholicism today, Priest openly defy their Bishops. It was probably more of a problem in the '60s, '70s, '80s, and '90s than today. In part because the revolutionaries, the rebels, are getting old and dying.

One of the tough Churches (if analogues to a training camp) are the Coptic Orthodox Christians. They fast most days out of the year. :shock:

I was raised post-Vatican II. We didn't even have to fast on Fridays. If the old Catholic Church was analogous to the Army Rangers then today's Catholic Church is analogous to a Navy ship full of obese, lazy, sailors whom the officers of the ship don't expect much out of. If you can't make it through today's Catholic Church then I'm not sure how you can make it through the mean streets of Chicago or Baltimore.



The Catholic Church itself is very divided internally. It is no way "one" as Jesus prayed. And neither is the nation-state of the USA by the way.

 
I can appreciate your discomfort in supporting a path you disagree with, but I ask you this earnestly,

You have a friend come to you, and you know they have the following options:

Following the Transition and a high chance of happiness
or
Trying to repress such feelings and a high chance of misery...

How would you advise them?

I would urge them to seek healing, rather than something that is at best a palliative. I would not advise them to mutilate their body based on their mental problem. I would be willing to walk the hard road with them, but I will not recommend what I believe to be self harm to a person I care for. :-/

[[Full Disclosure: I am saying what I think I would do. My little sister's fiance decided half way into their engagement she was actually a guy (it caused the dissolution of the relationship), but I have never had a friend come to me for help with this issue. ]]
 
Actually, it's more about the lack of understanding and the refusal to learn about this issue from those on your side of it.

Those on his side are not about to start calling the sun "dancing hyena" just because a bunch of you do.


THE SAAD TRUTH_36: Postmodernism is Nonsensical Anti-Science
Published on May 17, 2015

In the world of postmodernism, 'dancing hyena' is another term for 'the sun,' and men can bear children. Who knew?!

 
I think when you're running around presenting yourself as something you're factually not and find enjoyment in people getting things wrong that you have a serious moral issue on your hands.
I think when you're running around and demand people not tell others the truth about you that you have a serious moral concern on your hands.

I honestly don't think that the way transgenders behave is really all that moral or in line with Christianity.

Quite literally they don't want to be "outed"(informing others they are transgender) because they want to be seen as whatever gender/sex they are presenting themselves as. Apparently, if other people know they are transgender and not female/male like they are presenting themselves as they are harmed somehow. The idea that other peoples knowing the truth about you somehow harms you is nonsensical bull****.
 
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I have not watched either of these yet but I trust they will be reasonable.




Jordan Peterson talks to a transsexual in this video I assume. I have not watched it yet. Again, I assume both persons presenting their positions will be reasonable in this video. Only because I find Jordan Peterson to be a fairly reasonable dude, or I believe he tries to be. But make up your own mind if that is the case or not.



Dr. Jordan Peterson Chats with a Reasonable Trans Person
 
No, they are trying to reach for something they cannot naturally be. You can naturally be thinner, or stronger, or faster, or smarter. You can't change your ethnicity, gender, species, etc. You can only change your appearance.


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How are you defining "naturally"?
 
Many Christians oppose transgenderism because they're "saying that God is wrong". But is transgenderism really unbiblical?

If we use that same logic then plastic surgery, curing genetic diseases, and giving people born without certain body parts (or defective body parts) adequate replacements would also be considered "playing God" and sinful.

The Catholic church declared the first glasses lens sinful for the same reason. Of course some Christians may oppose it on other grounds like immorality, or whatever reason any given individual may have.
 
Okay, I just watched that video discussion between Dr. Jordan Peterson and that transsexual woman (in post #33).

I more or less agree with the transsexual woman in that video about gender identification. For instance, she was born male, remains biologically male, but socially she fits in best as female.

As for non-binary identifying people, if they told me, "Hey, I don't feel male or female," then cool. I'm indifferent to that. But I'm not going to agree to be forced under legislation, school policy, work place policy to start referring to that individual as "they." But I am more than willing to refer to a transsexual woman that was born biologically male as "her" and "she." In fact, its easiest for me to do that anyways.

I though Dr. Peterson made some fair points too.
 
Many Christians oppose transgenderism because they're "saying that God is wrong". But is transgenderism really unbiblical?

If we use that same logic then plastic surgery, curing genetic diseases, and giving people born without certain body parts (or defective body parts) adequate replacements would also be considered "playing God" and sinful.

If there was a god, I'm sure he doesn't hate trans people. He made them for one mysterious reason or another.
 
If there was a god, I'm sure he doesn't hate trans people. He made them for one mysterious reason or another.

He made perfect man...when sin entered into the picture, then also imperfection entered the picture...that is why today we see defects and deformities in humans because we are no longer perfect, as Adam was created...
 
The Catholic church declared the first glasses lens sinful for the same reason. Of course some Christians may oppose it on other grounds like immorality, or whatever reason any given individual may have.

Both Protestant and Catholic clergy--members of--preached the use of table forks and table knives would result in eternal damnation of the users, due to vanity.

French intellectual Fernand Braudel points that out in one of his master tomes on capitalism. You see, for centuries the kings and queens of Europe ate with their hands. When table forks and table knives were first used only the rich could afford them. In Europe they first started being used in Italy among the aristocrats.

(The Chinese used chop sticks I believe, but most humanity on earth used their hands.) \

So, as Fernand Braudel pointed out luxury is relative, relative to what the rich can afford and no one else can. He also pointed out, that like table forks and table knives, eventually all the poor acquire the goods once deemed luxury items, and once the poor can afford them they no longer are deemed luxury items.

Kind of makes people who regard themselves as "conservatives" and complain about the poor in America having cell phones and automobiles, look stupid, no?

Anyways, the Catholic Church has many people with opinions. Including Popes. However, what remains actual Church official teaching is another matter. The Catholic Church puts out a catechism which lays out the basic official teaching of the Church. Anyone can read it. Unless of course they illiterate.

Catechism of the Catholic Church: Catechism of the Catholic Church

So, I'm not familiar with the "glasses lens" officially declared sinful by the Catholic Church--particularly as you say "for the same reason" (same reason as what?)--that you speak of. By "glasses lens" I'm hazarding a guess you are referring to prescription lenses?

You may be right. I have no idea. I never heard of this. But I am familiar with the normative behavior of many people totally misunderstanding Catholicism entirely. At least Orthodox theologians and clergy understand Catholicism very well and from that point make informed and reasonable criticisms of Catholicism. Such as it being too rationalistic (so is Protestantism and even more so the Orthodox would argue) and too legalistic. I tend to agree with both criticisms.

What criticism I don't care for are those born out of pure ignorance and absolute misunderstanding. Partly why I don't consider myself a political conservative, or more precisely an American political conservative. (Not that I don't agree with conservatives on some issues, nor can I identify with the Democrats and liberals of today. I'm closer to Jimmy Hoffa era Democrat but a bit more "radical" and libertarian on somethings.)
 
Both Protestant and Catholic clergy--members of--preached the use of table forks and table knives would result in eternal damnation of the users, due to vanity.

French intellectual Fernand Braudel points that out in one of his master tomes on capitalism. You see, for centuries the kings and queens of Europe ate with their hands. When table forks and table knives were first used only the rich could afford them. In Europe they first started being used in Italy among the aristocrats.

(The Chinese used chop sticks I believe, but most humanity on earth used their hands.) \

So, as Fernand Braudel pointed out luxury is relative, relative to what the rich can afford and no one else can. He also pointed out, that like table forks and table knives, eventually all the poor acquire the goods once deemed luxury items, and once the poor can afford them they no longer are deemed luxury items.

Kind of makes people who regard themselves as "conservatives" and complain about the poor in America having cell phones and automobiles, look stupid, no?

Anyways, the Catholic Church has many people with opinions. Including Popes. However, what remains actual Church official teaching is another matter. The Catholic Church puts out a catechism which lays out the basic official teaching of the Church. Anyone can read it. Unless of course they illiterate.

Catechism of the Catholic Church: Catechism of the Catholic Church

So, I'm not familiar with the "glasses lens" officially declared sinful by the Catholic Church--particularly as you say "for the same reason" (same reason as what?)--that you speak of. By "glasses lens" I'm hazarding a guess you are referring to prescription lenses?

You may be right. I have no idea. I never heard of this. But I am familiar with the normative behavior of many people totally misunderstanding Catholicism entirely. At least Orthodox theologians and clergy understand Catholicism very well and from that point make informed and reasonable criticisms of Catholicism. Such as it being too rationalistic (so is Protestantism and even more so the Orthodox would argue) and too legalistic. I tend to agree with both criticisms.

What criticism I don't care for are those born out of pure ignorance and absolute misunderstanding. Partly why I don't consider myself a political conservative, or more precisely an American political conservative. (Not that I don't agree with conservatives on some issues, nor can I identify with the Democrats and liberals of today. I'm closer to Jimmy Hoffa era Democrat but a bit more "radical" and libertarian on somethings.)

I was with right up until you said conservatives complain about poor people having phones and cars, as a conservative I have never made such claims and blanket statements like that tend to shut down discourse.
 
He made perfect man...when sin entered into the picture, then also imperfection entered the picture...that is why today we see defects and deformities in humans because we are no longer perfect, as Adam was created...

I have an issue with that reasoning. If man was perfect, he wouldn't have been tempted by sin.
 
I was with right up until you said conservatives complain about poor people having phones and cars, as a conservative I have never made such claims and blanket statements like that tend to shut down discourse.

Naw, the complaints about poor Americans on government assistance having cell phones (only "flagship" cell phones are luxury items today in the West, just as a new Lexus or Mercedes is a luxury car in the USA but a beat up used Buick is not) and cars is but only one of the ignorant things American political conservatives come up with today.

Trust... in comparison the European Cardinals in the Vatican are far more "balanced." It might surprise the "melting pot" US Congress and American public but the Vatican (which deals with global issues and global Catholicism) has offices that read newspapers daily from all over the world written in a multitude of different languages. But let me guess... you though the US Congress was the most "cosmopolitan" organ of a world institution on earth? Yeah, not. Half those people don't even know what's going on in the US let alone in Italy, Russia, China, or Iran.

So, here is a current example of a Catholic Pope with an opinion, but it does not change official Church teaching on human sexual issues. Albeit, his (Pope's) views are supposed to be listened to and then considered for guidance particularly for pastoral care in this case. Pastoral care is different than theological debate. One can be very pastoral in Catholicism and not very much into theological discourse or concern.

Full story: https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/francis-sexual-morality-determined-case-case-even-transgender

Francis: Sexual morality determined case-by-case, even for transgender

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE FROM AZERBAIJAN

Pope Francis has said that Catholics must discern difficult situations of sexual morality on a case-by-case basis, even when presented with a person who is considering or has had gender reassignment surgery.

The pope said that during the meeting the transgender man spoke of his experience in his parish in Spain, where a younger priest had recently replaced his former pastor, who had turned 80.

"When the new pastor would see him, he would shout to him from the sidewalk: 'You will go to Hell.'" Francis said. "But when the old pastor would come find him, he asked: 'How long has it been since you confessed? Come and confess so you can have communion.' "

Now, this is just my opinion, my "interpretation," but the Pope's views and comments must be understood through the tradition of the Church. A tradition called "economia" or something like that. A tradition mind you, that has been used robustly and continually in Eastern Orthodoxy and not so much in Catholicism.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_(religion)

In the Orthodox Church, in Eastern and Latin Catholic churches,[1] and in the teaching of the Church Fathers which undergirds the theology of those communions, economy or oeconomy (Greek: οἰκονομία, oikonomia) has several meanings.[2] The basic meaning of the word is "handling" or "disposition" or "management" or more literally "housekeeping" of a thing, usually assuming or implying good or prudent handling (as opposed to poor handling) of the matter at hand. In short, economia is discretionary deviation from the letter of the law in order to adhere to the spirit of the law and charity. This is in contrast to legalism, or akribia (Greek: ακριβεια)—strict adherence to the letter of the law of the church.

Again, to even understand that, one must understand (even if they come to a conclusion where they disagree with the position of the Church) that to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches the *spirit* of the law is more important than letter of the law. But again, to understand that one would have to understand that to the Catholic Church to the purpose of law is to promote virtue among people.

In the secular world the purpose of law is to clarify exactly how close you can get to the line of being "unlawful" or to stipulate how free one is to do x, y, z.

Again, I'm not telling anyone to agree with the Catholic Church or the Orthodox. But what I'm saying is one can't critique their position fairly if one totally misunderstands and distorts their position.
 
:) You repeat my point, simply with the opposite conclusion. The mind and physical reality disagree; I point out that when that happens (say, when the mind insists it is multiple people, or a famous person it isn't, or a different species, or a different gender, etc), that we are right to say it is the mind that is wrong. You wish to carve out a single exception.

Since in this case it is a demonstrated BIOLOGICAL and STRUCTURAL inconsistency, it is the exception.

:shrug: you are confusing "does not agree with me" with "refuses to learn".

No, refuses to learn is right on target. This has been explained to you several times. You refuse to learn it.
 
It at one time was considered to be...just because the 'experts' have changed their minds, that doesn't change a thing...who knows what they'll say tomorrow?

Apparently, you aren't aware of how it was changed. It is due to the research that has been done over the past 15 years. We now have better and more technology to examine these things.
 
Jonathan Haidt inadvertently brings some of this to light when he points out the degree of group think the field is vulnerable and subject to.

Plenty of people have presented the concept of denial that folks on your side of this issue are vulnerable to.
 
Those on his side are not about to start calling the sun "dancing hyena" just because a bunch of you do.







Ah. So you are another one who is completely uneducated on this issue. Let me know if you are actually interested in learning... I always give people one opportunity before I just make them look bad by destroying their arguments.
 
I think when you're running around presenting yourself as something you're factually not and find enjoyment in people getting things wrong that you have a serious moral issue on your hands.
I think when you're running around and demand people not tell others the truth about you that you have a serious moral concern on your hands.

I honestly don't think that the way transgenders behave is really all that moral or in line with Christianity.

Quite literally they don't want to be "outed"(informing others they are transgender) because they want to be seen as whatever gender/sex they are presenting themselves as. Apparently, if other people know they are transgender and not female/male like they are presenting themselves as they are harmed somehow. The idea that other peoples knowing the truth about you somehow harms you is nonsensical bull****.

Now, Henrin. You know how this is going to go. It's going to go how these discussions always go. You are going to say something either completely invalid or something that is completely opinion based with you attempting to disguise it as a fact. I'm then going to point this out to you. You will then proceed to either get angry and act out, or continue to say invalid things which I will continue to correct. For example, since we know that there is a biological discrepancy between how the brain is wired for gender and how the body is, your "truth" is nothing of the sort. See how easy that was? Now, do you REALLY want to do this for the hundredth or so time?
 
Now, Henrin. You know how this is going to go. It's going to go how these discussions always go. You are going to say something either completely invalid or something that is completely opinion based with you attempting to disguise it as a fact. I'm then going to point this out to you. You will then proceed to either get angry and act out, or continue to say invalid things which I will continue to correct. For example, since we know that there is a biological discrepancy between how the brain is wired for gender and how the body is, your "truth" is nothing of the sort. See how easy that was? Now, do you REALLY want to do this for the hundredth or so time?

I have told you repeatedly to stop responding to me. Why do you refuse when I'm being quite clear in my displeasure with you? How is not incredibly rude to continue to respond to me after I have told you to stop?

Btw, if someone else wants to present the argument that Captain just did I will gladly respond to it. As for Captain, he no longer gets anything from me due to his behavior towards me over the last several years.
 
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I have told you repeatedly to stop responding to me. Why do you refuse when I'm being quite clear in my displeasure with you? How is not incredibly rude to continue to respond to me after I have told you to stop?

Btw, if someone else wants to present the argument that Captain just did I will gladly respond to it. As for Captain, he no longer gets anything from me due to his behavior towards me over the last several years.

And I have told you that on this forum, people can respond to whomever they like. You don't want to engage with me, don't. Feel free to ignore every time I quote one of your posts.
 
I think when you're running around presenting yourself as something you're factually not and find enjoyment in people getting things wrong that you have a serious moral issue on your hands.
I think when you're running around and demand people not tell others the truth about you that you have a serious moral concern on your hands.

I honestly don't think that the way transgenders behave is really all that moral or in line with Christianity.

Quite literally they don't want to be "outed"(informing others they are transgender) because they want to be seen as whatever gender/sex they are presenting themselves as. Apparently, if other people know they are transgender and not female/male like they are presenting themselves as they are harmed somehow. The idea that other peoples knowing the truth about you somehow harms you is nonsensical bull****.

When your posts only attract approval from social conservatives, you need to re-evaluate your claim to being 'Libertarian'.
 
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