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Should Burkas Be Made Illegal in America?

FastPace said:
Fetal homicide is a felony crime in at least some states within the United States. The question is not why Catholicism opposes fetal homicide but why secular US laws oppose it unless its the mother along with medical professionals she or some organization contracts to carry out the fetal homicide.

No species on earth has contractual marriages. Only humans. Ever thought why that is if in fact the state (government) should not be involved in individual's consensual sexual lives, as some so claim? "Marriages" are like prayer. Is there such a thing as "secular prayer," if so or if not why? Marriage predates Christianity but seems to have been created--in absence of a welfare state mind you--for the protection of peoples daughters but more especially for issues on inheritance rights among offspring produce from a male and female mating. Marriage--like prayer--very early fell under religion. With all the ceremony and pomp. The secular world eventually decided to protect the institution of marriage because political philosophers viewed *the family* as the basic unit, basic building block, of society and a country.

The family is were the child first learns from parents as instructors on norms and behaviors, rights and wrong.

So, Catholicism allows for annulments (meaning, a sacramental marriage *never existed*). Contrary to what many believe Catholicism teaches that the bride and groom along with God creates the marriage *and not* the Priest nor the Government. The Priest and Church (and community) act as witnesses. Witnesses to what? The sacramental covenant made by the bride and groom with God. The Catholic Church claims to have no authority of marriage. It can only witness to the vows and it can function through Canon Law, Church court, to rule if a sacramental marriage never existed to begin with.

(A sacrament, according to Catholicism, is an outward sign that reveals a greater unseen truth. Matrimony, baptism, vows Holy Orders are some of the 7 sacraments of the Church. The concept is rooted in the idea of the material world having been blessed by God, and demonstrated by Jesus to be used in the life of man for good and salvation.)

So, the Catholic Church generally opposes divorce (meaning the couple are in fact married), and I think there are some exceptions but I might be wrong on that, but it opposes divorce because it is viewed as married people abandoning their vows and duties. Kind of like secular people don't look well upon what they term "Dead Beat Dads."

The Church does not say married people with serious problems can not separate. But they still remain married. Again, unless an annulment is given, which basically means a sacramental marriage never existed. Certain criteria must be in place for a sacramental marriage. Certain deceptions on one party can not be present when taking the vows. Another one I know of is a person can not be forced to marry. (Forced marriages are different than arranged marriages, the later is where parents "set up" their kids, but the kids retain the choice to marry x person or not.)




So, I'm saying all this to say, Catholic Church teaching on divorce and abortion does not parallel the issue Muslim lay women being covered up from head to toe in London (not Jerusalem). Unless you are prepared to draw parallels with secular laws which place all sorts of restrictions on people. I'm pretty sure if you start walking butt naked in Times Square in New York City with your male genitals swinging in the air, New York City cops are going to arrest you. Is that the same as the burka issue? Maybe it is in the broad sense of rules and laws exist throughout all spheres of life.
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Thanks for the exposition but I think you're really missing my point. I'm not discussing the morality of divorce or abortion or the interplay of Canon and secular law. I was simply pointing out that all religions restrict their adherents freedoms, be it a Muslim woman who wears a burqa, a Jewish person who cannot eat pork or a Christian who can't get an abortion. And though I have strong opinions on divorce and abortion which you can easily find out for yourself by searching what I've written on the topics in this forum for purposes of this post my opinion on those topics is irrelevant.
 
Absentglare said:
I think choosing to adhere to a religion is an exercise in freedom, but that can certainly impose personal restrictions on behavior. It's important to understand that those restrictions are voluntarily imposed by the individuals who endure them.

I didn't mean to suggest that religion is the core problem. The core problem i see is the institutionalized restriction of freedom, imposed by one Earthly authority upon individuals. The premise behind a burka ban is that the lack of freedom in being forced to wear a burka is bad. The core problem is the lack of freedom. The burka ban is its own lack of freedom, so i feel like it becomes its own worst enemy.
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Ah so you're not arguing that wearing a burqa is a restriction on freedom but that banning the wearing of one is. In that case yes I did misunderstand you. Apologies and thanks for setting me straight.
 
Gaius46 said:
Thanks for the exposition but I think you're really missing my point. I'm not discussing the morality of divorce or abortion or the interplay of Canon and secular law. I was simply pointing out that all religions restrict their adherents freedoms, be it a Muslim woman who wears a burqa, a Jewish person who cannot eat pork or a Christian who can't get an abortion. And though I have strong opinions on divorce and abortion which you can easily find out for yourself by searching what I've written on the topics in this forum for purposes of this post my opinion on those topics is irrelevant.
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You pointed out religions restrict their adherents freedoms, but failed to point out secular laws restricts all human beings freedoms. As I said in New York City a man can not walk about butt naked with his male genitals swinging in the air without the NYPD arresting him.

So, your point about religions were flawed.

Secondly, in terms of reasoning, proper comparisons between Catholicism and Islam need to compare and/or contrast their beliefs or teachings on the X same thing.

One does not try and justify traffic laws in Chicago by saying, "Hey, the Vatican teaches women aren't supposed to use contraception."

Islam has teachings on marriage and divorce.

Islam has teachings on abortions.

Just as Catholicism has teachings on modesty. So, on the issue of burkas, if you are going to draw comparisons of it to Catholicism then compare it to Catholic teaching on modesty.



These are Catholic women on modesty:





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Those Catholic women in the videos are Catholic, Christian, conservatives, whom liberal Americans make out to be raving mad lunatics that are *fanatical*. And they turn around make Muslim women in the USA in full burka out to be sane, reasonable, pious women.

The Catholic position on modesty is a bit more complicated as it is relational and can be relative to one's cultural environment. From the Catholic view point wearing a full burka in the USA, might actually not be modest as it draws too much attention to you.

You see... the non-Christian secular world, at least outside of the sciences, philosophies, and mathematics tend to think "reasoning" logically is saying anything no matter what, and that everything must equally be true and equally be reasonable.

So, if Buddhist say 2 + 2 = 5 it must be as true as anything Catholic say.

So, if Muslims say 2 + 2 = 7 it must be as true as anything Catholics say.

So, if secular people say 2 + 2 = 0 it must be as true as anything Catholics say.

But in the Catholic intellectual tradition id in fact 2 + 2 = 4 in basic arithmetic then it is the only reasonable position to hold. Excepted, for theological issues of faith.


So, the better question is, pertaining to issues of modesty as it may be applied to American culture, as it applies to women, is the conservative Catholic position on modesty more reasonable than the conservative Muslim (not liberal Muslim) position on modesty with respects to the burka?

Of course, not all conservative Catholics agree. Some are in fact pretty puritanical. But the majority of conservative Catholics, even in the Vatican, take a position very akin to the women in that video.

You might even argue that both the Catholic position and Muslim position are flawed. Which is fine. But don't try to ignore the two do have a difference on the issue, that they both "are as reasonable."


(For the record, I'm a huge sinner with a less than holy interior formation, so I like a lot of "sexualized" clothing on women that is not modest by conservative Catholic standards.)
 
FastPace said:
You pointed out religions restrict their adherents freedoms, but failed to point out secular laws restricts all human beings freedoms. As I said in New York City a man can not walk about butt naked with his male genitals swinging in the air without the NYPD arresting him.

So, your point about religions were flawed.

Secondly, in terms of reasoning, proper comparisons between Catholicism and Islam need to compare and/or contrast their beliefs or teachings on the X same thing.

One does not try and justify traffic laws in Chicago by saying, "Hey, the Vatican teaches women aren't supposed to use contraception."

Islam has teachings on marriage and divorce.

Islam has teachings on abortions.

Just as Catholicism has teachings on modesty. So, on the issue of burkas, if you are going to draw comparisons of it to Catholicism then compare it to Catholic teaching on modesty.



These are Catholic women on modesty:





https://study.ascensionpress.com/



Those Catholic women in the videos are Catholic, Christian, conservatives, whom liberal Americans make out to be raving mad lunatics that are *fanatical*. And they turn around make Muslim women in the USA in full burka out to be sane, reasonable, pious women.

The Catholic position on modesty is a bit more complicated as it is relational and can be relative to one's cultural environment. From the Catholic view point wearing a full burka in the USA, might actually not be modest as it draws too much attention to you.

You see... the non-Christian secular world, at least outside of the sciences, philosophies, and mathematics tend to think "reasoning" logically is saying anything no matter what, and that everything must equally be true and equally be reasonable.

So, if Buddhist say 2 + 2 = 5 it must be as true as anything Catholic say.

So, if Muslims say 2 + 2 = 7 it must be as true as anything Catholics say.

So, if secular people say 2 + 2 = 0 it must be as true as anything Catholics say.

But in the Catholic intellectual tradition id in fact 2 + 2 = 4 in basic arithmetic then it is the only reasonable position to hold. Excepted, for theological issues of faith.


So, the better question is, pertaining to issues of modesty as it may be applied to American culture, as it applies to women, is the conservative Catholic position on modesty more reasonable than the conservative Muslim (not liberal Muslim) position on modesty with respects to the burka?

Of course, not all conservative Catholics agree. Some are in fact pretty puritanical. But the majority of conservative Catholics, even in the Vatican, take a position very akin to the women in that video.

You might even argue that both the Catholic position and Muslim position are flawed. Which is fine. But don't try to ignore the two do have a difference on the issue, that they both "are as reasonable."


(For the record, I'm a huge sinner with a less than holy interior formation, so I like a lot of "sexualized" clothing on women that is not modest by conservative Catholic standards.)
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Well of course I pointed out religious restrictions on their adherent's freedoms because that is the context of the discussion. It's about how religion restricts freedoms and whether criticizing one religion's restrictions on it's adherents is an implicit criticism of all religions. Secular law and the morality of various religious restricts isn't being discussed. If you want to discuss that I'm more than happy to but you are at this point making points that were not under discussion so I'm failing to see what your point is in the context of the discuss I was actually having.
 
Gaius46 said:
Well of course I pointed out religious restrictions on their adherent's freedoms because that is the context of the discussion. It's about how religion restricts freedoms and whether criticizing one religion's restrictions on it's adherents is an implicit criticism of all religions. Secular law and the morality of various religious restricts isn't being discussed. If you want to discuss that I'm more than happy to but you are at this point making points that were not under discussion so I'm failing to see what your point is in the context of the discuss I was actually having.
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I thought the title of the thread--as well as post #1--were specifically about the burka and not about Canon law requirements to attend Mass on Easter, or Muslims celebrating Ramadan, Muslim women in the Hijab, praying 5 times a day, Jews praying at a wall in Israel, Buddhist prayer flags, or Hindu nuns and whatever restrictions they are under?

And let me point out I have not taken a position in this thread. Frankly, I have not made up my mind.

For one, in general I don't care how anyone chooses to dress. Not that I like the burka fashion (just from a pure fashion stand point), I don't. But I've been to the UAE which has almost every single woman walking around in public in black burkas. I stilled enjoyed the UAE and liked it.. Felt safer there than the USA too.

For two, I can see how the mere architecture of the thing can be used as very good concealment (particularly if the face veil is worn with it) even for men. They are loose enough to strap and conceal a short barrel, collapsible stock, AK-47 or other assault rifles too. You could have 5 men in those things and light Times Square in NYC up like the 4th of July.

But post #1 seemed to be more concerned with the burkas religious and cultural relation to modesty as practiced or rendered in public by members of the female sex. Post #1 also seemed to take issue with what it perceives as an asymmetry (to use a social science phrase) in Islam between the status of males and females. Asymmetries exist between the two sexes all 5 major Religions. Including Christianity which is one of the 5 Major religions. I would say the asymmetry exists least in Christianity. And lesser in Protestantism than it does in Catholicism or Orthodoxy. But all three of them are pretty "womanish" religions. And Islam is the mostly "manly" of all the 5 major religions. It becomes first evident with the mosque itself. Where are the women? If they are there they are behind the men (opposite of Christian churches were they are beside the men and or standing, speaking, or singing in front of them). It becomes more evident with Islamic marital and divorce laws. So, its possible the "manly" nature of Islam is why young Muslim men can be drawn from all over the world for jihad. Possibly. Even Catholic women are drawn to the strong shoulders of Islam, it's sweaty masculine chest.

I will say again I took no position--on to ban it it or not.

Egypt is a mostly Muslim country but it has begun to take a position. Some of it's Muslim people anyways. Full article: Egypt drafts bill to ban burqa and Islamic veils in public places | The Independent

Egypt drafts bill to ban burqa and Islamic veils in public places

Legislators have argued that full face veils are un-Islamic and that the Quran only requires women to dress modestly and cover their hair
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MP Amna Nosseir, professor of comparative jurisprudence at Al-Azhar University, who has backed the ban, said that wearing the veil is not a requirement of Islam and in fact has non-Islamic origins. She has argued that it is a Jewish tradition which appeared in the Arabian Peninsula prior to Islam and that a variety of Quran passages contradict its use.
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So, I want to be clear about this modesty thing. Relative to Vatican City as a theocracy and small country and Saudi Arabia as a theocracy and much larger country. So, two theocracies.

As well as Christian women be they Catholic or Orthodox and their dress style as well as their wearing of the hijab in Christian churches. Outside of Vatican City and a few locations like Portugal, the hijab (mantilla) is no longer worn by Catholic lay women during Mass. The Oriental and Eastern Orthodox women still wear the hijab during their Divine Liturgies (Masses).

I personally like the Islamic hijab on young women from purely a fashion style stand point. Just like some of those Middle Eastern scarfs young men in the West at times wear around their necks looks cool. I like it.




Video 1. The lovely Rita Ora from England who has an Albanian Muslim father and Catholic Mother. I believe she is in Vatican City itself for this performance.



Video 2. Nota bene, the girl (singing) and woman wearing the hijab just as many Muslim women do and in some of the styles they (Muslim women and girls) do.



Video 3. This young lady is dressed in Catholic conception of modesty, and inside Vatican City itself it appears.

Published on Dec 3, 2016

Christmas Charity Concert at Campo Santo, Vatican. Sarah Ego (Eliyo) is singing the "Our Father" in Aramaic, the mother tongue of Jesus.
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jimbo said:
I think you're correct, at least I hope so.

Face masks are illegal in public in many places. Why should burkas be excluded?
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Just brainstorming...

Nuns sometimes where head covering correct?

Do they remove them like I would a cap, say when the national anthem is sung?

Or, because they are part of a religious dress are they treated differently than a cap?

So would a religious face covering be different than a typical face covering because it is part of religious dress?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
Whythink said:
Just brainstorming...

Nuns sometimes where head covering correct?

Do they remove them like I would a cap, say when the national anthem is sung?

Or, because they are part of a religious dress are they treated differently than a cap?

So would a religious face covering be different than a typical face covering because it is part of religious dress?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
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There's a difference between a head covering and a mask. Nuns don't wear masks.
 
FastPace said:
I thought the title of the thread--as well as post #1--were specifically about the burka and not about Canon law requirements to attend Mass on Easter, or Muslims celebrating Ramadan, Muslim women in the Hijab, praying 5 times a day, Jews praying at a wall in Israel, Buddhist prayer flags, or Hindu nuns and whatever restrictions they are under?

And let me point out I have not taken a position in this thread. Frankly, I have not made up my mind.

For one, in general I don't care how anyone chooses to dress. Not that I like the burka fashion (just from a pure fashion stand point), I don't. But I've been to the UAE which has almost every single woman walking around in public in black burkas. I stilled enjoyed the UAE and liked it.. Felt safer there than the USA too.

For two, I can see how the mere architecture of the thing can be used as very good concealment (particularly if the face veil is worn with it) even for men. They are loose enough to strap and conceal a short barrel, collapsible stock, AK-47 or other assault rifles too. You could have 5 men in those things and light Times Square in NYC up like the 4th of July.

But post #1 seemed to be more concerned with the burkas religious and cultural relation to modesty as practiced or rendered in public by members of the female sex. Post #1 also seemed to take issue with what it perceives as an asymmetry (to use a social science phrase) in Islam between the status of males and females. Asymmetries exist between the two sexes all 5 major Religions. Including Christianity which is one of the 5 Major religions. I would say the asymmetry exists least in Christianity. And lesser in Protestantism than it does in Catholicism or Orthodoxy. But all three of them are pretty "womanish" religions. And Islam is the mostly "manly" of all the 5 major religions. It becomes first evident with the mosque itself. Where are the women? If they are there they are behind the men (opposite of Christian churches were they are beside the men and or standing, speaking, or singing in front of them). It becomes more evident with Islamic marital and divorce laws. So, its possible the "manly" nature of Islam is why young Muslim men can be drawn from all over the world for jihad. Possibly. Even Catholic women are drawn to the strong shoulders of Islam, it's sweaty masculine chest.

I will say again I took no position--on to ban it it or not.

Egypt is a mostly Muslim country but it has begun to take a position. Some of it's Muslim people anyways. Full article: Egypt drafts bill to ban burqa and Islamic veils in public places | The Independent
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Ah okay. AbsentGlare and I were having a sidebar discussion that was spurred by the OP.

I don't disagree about the ability to conceal weaponry but weapons concealment is a problem with most clothing. A man's trenchcoat would work just as well to conceal a small semi automatic rifle. And that doesn't even begin to touch on how easy it is conceal a semi auto handgun on your body. Of course that doesn't have the firepower of a rifle but we're only talking about matters of degree then.

I also don't disagree that Islam can be more male centric. I've certainly known Muslims who were - I went to a wedding of an Iranian ex-pat that, while it wasn't segregated, the women were apparently not allowed to dance. On the other hand I know a Muslim guy who is completely ruled by his wife and 3 daughters.
 
Whythink said:
Just brainstorming...

Nuns sometimes where head covering correct?

Do they remove them like I would a cap, say when the national anthem is sung?

Or, because they are part of a religious dress are they treated differently than a cap?

So would a religious face covering be different than a typical face covering because it is part of religious dress?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

The reality is American liberals, female feminist, waged holy jihad against Catholic women wearing head covering in the USA decades ago, so few Catholic nuns in the USA wear head covering. Most walk around with short lesbian haircuts. Lesbianism has infiltrated the ranks of religious sisters (known, although incorrectly, as "nuns." Nuns proper I believe are confined to monastic-like convents. But I call sisters nuns too often.) in Catholicism as male homosexuality infiltrated the ranks of the priesthood.

To understand this one must understand heresy overwhelmingly tolerated inside the Catholic Church today, so is Christian self-hate, and heretics and "revolutionaries" in the priesthood and in the ranks of sisters have fought to change the Church from within. As oppose to leaving it as happened in the Protestant Revolution. The view seems to be that the Protestant Revolt, by leaving and forming new churches, failed to destroy the Catholic Church as hoped. So, the hope is to destroy the Church from within.*

These are how most Catholic nuns in the USA look today. Also in age as few young women join their ranks.







*Just as the USA branch of the Muslim Brotherhood's plan is to destroy the USA from within, by using liberals own hands to cut the throats of their on grandchildren future. Scroll to page 7 of 18 and read short portion place in yellow highlight: https://clarionproject.org/muslim_brotherhood_explanatory_memorandum/
 
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