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The Religious Left

That's interesting.

In what do you believe?

I believe in God, but I do not believe in the Christian version of hell, nor in condemnation for eternity, nor that we need to be "saved" and that there is only one way to be saved.

An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, loving power needs none of that.

I also do not believe the bible to be literal. Everything we need is right inside and before us if we are open to it.
 
I think that is exactly right. There is also the fact that the loud Evangelical voting block actually represents a significant portion of the voting population of certain states. Overall it may equal out in terms of religiosity, but it is more condensed in particularly areas whereas the religious left is scattered around everywhere.

There seem to be a number of belief held by Christianity governing individual actions that are not embraced by the Democrat Party.

Children are a gift from God according to the Bible.

Returning the gift to the sender seems to a little rude.
 
I would argue that the religious left quietly participates in religious events because the extreme right has hijacked being religious. I assume that the majority of people attending church disagree with me politically.

I also assume that the majority of of people agreeing with me about politics don't want to hear about my religion.

Consequently, only a few close friends know my religious beliefs and rarely do I share my beliefs with anyone.

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And what are your religious beliefs?
 
I don't know. part of me says yes. But, then when I look at the laws on discrimination, I come to the conclusion that X person's religious right to not like someone's race, sex, orientation, etc. does not trump their legal obligation to serve everyone equally. But, it sure would be nice if the gay person just went to a more friendly baker.

I agree and waver a bit,

but overall, because we live in free nations, I think he is free to believe whatever but must bake the cake because the right to equal treatment must trump someone's belief.
 
but if they did, should you have that right?

That is an interesting question.

If a Black person owned a bakery and a cake was ordered that demanded a Stars and Bars along with a Swastika on the top, would refusing that job be acceptable?
 
That is an interesting question.

If a Black person owned a bakery and a cake was ordered that demanded a Stars and Bars along with a Swastika on the top, would refusing that job be acceptable?

or a white person for that matter, or a Jew

I believe refusing would be acceptable because of our understanding of what the swastika was used to represent historically

we as a society abhor genocide

our society as a whole does not condemn gay marriage, in fact it is legal
 
Maybe you are not aware, but black protestants are not very supportive of gay marriage. Although, they are at least trending in the right direction, unlike white evangelicals.

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They are actually getting worse.

Is any value on the left of your graph lower than any value on the right? No. None of those groups have gone backwards during the 13 years covered by the graph. Almost twice as many White evangelical protestants favoured same-sex marriages in 2014 as did in 2001. That's impressive change, and I commend them for it.
 
or a white person for that matter, or a Jew

I believe refusing would be acceptable because of our understanding of what the swastika was used to represent historically

we as a society abhor genocide

our society as a whole does not condemn gay marriage, in fact it is legal


Is the first amendment topic orientated?

I feel this is a sauce for the goose kind of a topic.

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/e/evelynbeat109645.html
<snip>
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall
<snip>
 
Just observing how hostile some of the most prominent Leftist voices are to religion, it's not surprising they stay quiet.

It's absolutely not surprising here at DP.
I would say I am quiet about religion because the right has politicized it not because the "left" doesn't like it.

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He does not see, at this time, the Democrat Party that exists today: the one that opposes his faith, his occupation and his life style.

Life long devotion is both admirable and curious to me.

That is your opinion.

He might see both political parties clearly and simply disagree with your conclusion.

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That is your opinion.

He might see both political parties clearly and simply disagree with your conclusion.

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We've had discussions on this.

In Minnesota, Union People are DFLers.
 
baking a caking (providing a service) is not the same as speaking one's belief

are words and action the same...no

yes

I'm not sure I am reading your words right.

However, you seem to be saying that the baker who refuses to provide the gay cake for the gay customer is violating the first amendment rights of the gay customer.

You also seem to be saying that the same baker who refuses to provide the racist cake for the racist customer is not violating the first amendment rights of the racist customer.

Why should the law be interpreted in one way for one customer and in another way for the next customer?

Why, in your opinion, should law be enforced discriminately for different members of society?
 
Is any value on the left of your graph lower than any value on the right? No. None of those groups have gone backwards during the 13 years covered by the graph. Almost twice as many White evangelical protestants favoured same-sex marriages in 2014 as did in 2001. That's impressive change, and I commend them for it.

I was referring to the move down by white evangelicals after 2013, which was the exact opposite of the black protestants who moved sharply in the opposite direction.

Did I really have to explain that?
 
I cannot make this apply to a big part of the population. My Brother in law and sister are both born again Christians.

My Brother in law is a life long member of Union Households.

By habit, he is a Democrat and a Christian. His religious and political affiliations are both ingrained and strongly held.

He is also a wonderfully generous and inviting person as is my sister.

Because the Democrats were at one time the champions of the working man, he is a devoted Democrat with unshakable faith in them.

He does not see, at this time, the Democrat Party that exists today: the one that opposes his faith, his occupation and his life style.

Life long devotion is both admirable and curious to me.

I used to be a Republican. But, then I saw they no longer stood for the things I believe are important: rule of law, small government, national security, freedom of religion, opportunity, etc. So, I understand your curiosity.

This may not be the thread to delve into it, but I found sometime in the early y2K's that the GOP was more about representing primarily their base, and not the rest of the country.
 
I'm not sure I am reading your words right.

However, you seem to be saying that the baker who refuses to provide the gay cake for the gay customer is violating the first amendment rights of the gay customer.

You also seem to be saying that the same baker who refuses to provide the racist cake for the racist customer is not violating the first amendment rights of the racist customer.

Why should the law be interpreted in one way for one customer and in another way for the next customer?

Why, in your opinion, should law be enforced discriminately for different members of society?

because we do not support hate crimes or their depiction

the one cake has a hate supportive message, the other does not

Happy Wedding Day Dave and Sam vs. a swastika

unless you see them to be the same?
 
The Religious who? Yeah. I know. Not a very vocal crowd that one. No loud mouths like Falwell, Robertson or Reed stirring up **** in that bunch.

So...one almost has to ask--are there any Lefties who are religious? And, if so---why do they stay mum?

Stats:

piechart_tribes.gif


Sure does look like the Religious Right is vastly outnumbered among all religious groups. Lefty Christians seem to number about the same as them--about 13% each. The other 74% seem to be a potpourri of various sectors and political tribes.

So why is the RR so politically powerful, the RL almost unheard of, and the nearly 80% left over nearly invisible?

The RR marries politics and religion. Listening to them on the radio during a campaign is like listen to right wing talk radio with a few biblical references thrown in. They have a lot of money, and they use a good deal of it for political (Republican party) purposes.

This is from 2008, but still pretty relevant.

"What they care about: Compared to other groups, more likely to care about cultural issues (36% compared to 13% nationally) but even they have placed economics as a much higher priority. Now 42% list the economy as the top issue; in 2004, 18% did. The Christian right also sees a big role for religion politics, with three quarters opposing the idea that religion should stay out of politics. At the same time, their conservative positions on the social issues are virtually unchanged since 2004: 83% are pro-life and 86% support only traditional marriage. They also support small government. Half oppose the idea of more government services, with just 19% saying there should be more. And just 41% favor more environmental regulations if it means adverse economic news, a drop from 2004, when more than half favored such regulations. About three quarters still feel the war in Iraq was justified, more than any other group."
Read more at The Twelve Tribes of American Politics in the 2008 Election - Beliefnet
 
The Religious who? Yeah. I know. Not a very vocal crowd that one. No loud mouths like Falwell, Robertson or Reed stirring up **** in that bunch.

So...one almost has to ask--are there any Lefties who are religious? And, if so---why do they stay mum?

Stats:

Sure does look like the Religious Right is vastly outnumbered among all religious groups. Lefty Christians seem to number about the same as them--about 13% each. The other 74% seem to be a potpourri of various sectors and political tribes.

So why is the RR so politically powerful, the RL almost unheard of, and the nearly 80% left over nearly invisible?

Ok, I'll bite. I'm Christian, and would obviously identify as left leaning. I'm not sure what you mean about staying mum, though...hehe...I'm not often accused of that. But that there are Christian leftists shouldn't surprise anyone. It's what pre-weaponized Christianity looks like.

I will say that, as a Christian I find it kind of sucks that the Left has kind of generalized the crap out of us, being on the same team and all. Not that it's your fault...the Right has turned our faith into something entirely unrecognizable from what I learned, and they are a lot louder about it, another deviation from the intended living of that faith. Still, if you run into a Leftist Christian, maybe give them a break on whole "sky fairy" stuff...chances are they've been battling on both ends for too long already...hehe

I am also not sure what is so surprising that the most damaging demographic in Christianity is the alt-right, while also being the most vocal (and therefore generalization forming) element, despite being in the minority. Every religion has their Taliban, it would appear, and they drive a far greater impact than the regular folks just living their life and believing what they want to believe. In terms of being a political force, I would suggest that many of these so called ultra right Christian conservatives are more interested in the Christian vote than the Christian teachings...I mean, for the longest time it's been a pretty tough brand to beat...though clearly certain elements of Christianity needed to be rather steeply muted, as they don't fit well with the Right wing agendas.
 
because we do not support hate crimes or their depiction

the one cake has a hate supportive message, the other does not

Happy Wedding Day Dave and Sam vs. a swastika

unless you see them to be the same?

Add to that, being gay is a state of being, it's who you are, and impacts no one else, while being a racists is a choice, and impacts others negatively...so, they are totally different propositions, despite how often this gets paraded out. I can't discriminate against who you are, but I don't have to support your politics / bigotry, so I can't refuse to make you a wedding cake if you're gay, but if you're a gay racist, I don't have to bake your nazi cake.
 
Add to that, being gay is a state of being, it's who you are, and impacts no one else, while being a racists is a choice, and impacts others negatively...so, they are totally different propositions, despite how often this gets paraded out. I can't discriminate against who you are, but I don't have to support your politics / bigotry, so I can't refuse to make you a wedding cake if you're gay, but if you're a gay racist, I don't have to bake your nazi cake.

nice points :thumbs:
 
Add to that, being gay is a state of being, it's who you are, and impacts no one else, while being a racists is a choice, and impacts others negatively...so, they are totally different propositions, despite how often this gets paraded out. I can't discriminate against who you are, but I don't have to support your politics / bigotry, so I can't refuse to make you a wedding cake if you're gay, but if you're a gay racist, I don't have to bake your nazi cake.

Many of the RR don't consider being gay a natural state of being. The sermon I heard said those wicked desires were simply a cross those who have them need to bear (deny) for Christ. They will say that they hate the sin, not the sinner, but unless you are actively repenting...

Yeah, they're a taliban.
 
I would say, leftie believers would claim to be spiritual...

?

I no longer claim to be Christian but I am a strong "believer"

Religion and spirituality have nothing to do with one another, never have; this is especially true for the male domionator god religions vomited up in the middle east. This is not to say that no one who calls him/herself religious can be spiritual however.
 
I was referring to the move down by white evangelicals after 2013, which was the exact opposite of the black protestants who moved sharply in the opposite direction.

Did I really have to explain that?

No, but a little intellectual honesty would have been nice.
 
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