Have abrahamic faiths and multiculturalism cucked the west?

I would say that most of America's values come from the great enlightenment. At least most good ones.
I mean, yea... Judeo-Christian values have a role in our history. Also, the Third Reich played a role in German history. Does that make it a good thing?
I mean, racism, sexism, genocide, slavery, homophobia... There's your christian legacy.

Freedom of speech, compassion, equality, acceptance, personal liberty, economic freedom, freedom of and from religion, the constitution...
We have to thank the Great Enlightenment for that.
Not just America, but the entire west.
What positive things have any of the abrahamic faiths brought us that wasn't here already?
The church preserving some science?
Yea... they preserved some science that would have advanced better without them. They brought the world back. The Greeks had already began discovering that the world was round yet the Church brought us back thousands of years.
I'd say the west got cucked HARD by Christianity... which is the embodiment of multiculturalism. It's western ideas, mixed with semetic non-sense faith. Multiculturalism created Christianity

Christianity has left nothing positive in American history.
I would challenge anyone to read the bill of rights and tell me how it relates specifically to Christianity?
I mean, what parts of our constitution are inspired directly from Christian doctrine, not the general idea of God. The idea of God giving every single man rights is far more akin to Deism than
In fact, I would say Deism is the greatest western faith.
It's better than atheism and religion.

Also, how "western" is Christianity?
It was adapted from a Jewish zombie cult. It's origins come from the semetic people, not the west.
How American Christians Were Manipulated Into Loving Israel
And Judaism is just as bad.
The dispensationalist teachings of the west has tricked us into supporting the Israeli zionist machine. The globalists are jumping in joy at their foolishness.

We've have been cucked threefold. We were cucked by Constantine the Great into allowing Christianity to violently dominate the west
We've been cucked again by the Zionists.
Now we've been cucked by the muslims
How many times must we be cucked if
I think we must reject ALL abrahamic faiths as perversions of western society. The jews, muslims, and christians have NOTHING to offer us. And we have EVERYTHING to offer them.
WE modernized them... We made them peaceful. If it weren't for us, they'd be acting the same way they were in the inquistion. It's western philosophy, not christianity, that makes a good society

whateverdude said:

I would say that most of America's values come from the great enlightenment. At least most good ones.
I mean, yea... Judeo-Christian values have a role in our history. Also, the Third Reich played a role in German history. Does that make it a good thing?
I mean, racism, sexism, genocide, slavery, homophobia... There's your christian legacy.

Freedom of speech, compassion, equality, acceptance, personal liberty, economic freedom, freedom of and from religion, the constitution...
We have to thank the Great Enlightenment for that.
Not just America, but the entire west.
What positive things have any of the abrahamic faiths brought us that wasn't here already?
The church preserving some science?
Yea... they preserved some science that would have advanced better without them. They brought the world back. The Greeks had already began discovering that the world was round yet the Church brought us back thousands of years.
I'd say the west got cucked HARD by Christianity... which is the embodiment of multiculturalism. It's western ideas, mixed with semetic non-sense faith. Multiculturalism created Christianity

Christianity has left nothing positive in American history.
I would challenge anyone to read the bill of rights and tell me how it relates specifically to Christianity?
I mean, what parts of our constitution are inspired directly from Christian doctrine, not the general idea of God. The idea of God giving every single man rights is far more akin to Deism than
In fact, I would say Deism is the greatest western faith.
It's better than atheism and religion.

Also, how "western" is Christianity?
It was adapted from a Jewish zombie cult. It's origins come from the semetic people, not the west.
How American Christians Were Manipulated Into Loving Israel
And Judaism is just as bad.
The dispensationalist teachings of the west has tricked us into supporting the Israeli zionist machine. The globalists are jumping in joy at their foolishness.

We've have been cucked threefold. We were cucked by Constantine the Great into allowing Christianity to violently dominate the west
We've been cucked again by the Zionists.
Now we've been cucked by the muslims
How many times must we be cucked if
I think we must reject ALL abrahamic faiths as perversions of western society. The jews, muslims, and christians have NOTHING to offer us. And we have EVERYTHING to offer them.
WE modernized them... We made them peaceful. If it weren't for us, they'd be acting the same way they were in the inquistion. It's western philosophy, not christianity, that makes a good society

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your culture ,your history ,your social structure ,a whole west is based on abrahamic religions ,you have to admit this fact ,who are you ? you belong to that culture too ,you take your source from ancient greeks in terms of history and civilization as a westerner ,you re nothing without christianity and judaism

really who are you referring to by telling 'we' ??

Whateverdude...it's difficult to debate you when you post these monster rants and manifestos...especially when the tone of them makes one feel like all they will get in return for going through the work of answering each of your points is abuse, if they hold a different opinion.

Also, I'm trying to figure you out a bit here...do you actually believe the stuff you write, or are you just trying to put up the most controversial, offensive, troll-y rhetoric in the hopes of creating a few hot topics? I mean, I know different people hold different levels of the toxic ideologies that you've been putting here the last few days, but to find them all in one person is like opening up a closet and finding a tornado inside...

What's your deal, homie? With respect, you've actually got my curiosity here...

OlNate said:

Whateverdude...it's difficult to debate you when you post these monster rants and manifestos...especially when the tone of them makes one feel like all they will get in return for going through the work of answering each of your points is abuse, if they hold a different opinion.

Also, I'm trying to figure you out a bit here...do you actually believe the stuff you write, or are you just trying to put up the most controversial, offensive, troll-y rhetoric in the hopes of creating a few hot topics? I mean, I know different people hold different levels of the toxic ideologies that you've been putting here the last few days, but to find them all in one person is like opening up a closet and finding a tornado inside...

What's your deal, homie? With respect, you've actually got my curiosity here...

Click to expand...

I don't think what I'm saying is really that controversial. I've been taught all my life about the judeo-christian values and their importance for society. But honestly look at it, I honestly feel those values are generally not very good and the impact they've made has mostly been negative

whateverdude said:

I don't think what I'm saying is really that controversial. I've been taught all my life about the judeo-christian values and their importance for society. But honestly look at it, I honestly feel those values are generally not very good and the impact they've made has mostly been negative

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Really? You really really think the majority of Judeo-Christian influence has been negative? Name me something that is soley tied back to Judeo-Christian influence that is negative - not Judeo-Christian dogma weaponized to serve an individual or group's agenda, not the abuse of power given to someone in a position of authority in the Judeo-Christian infrastructure, neither of those things are limited to Judeo-Christian affiliation, so therefore Judeo-Christian influence cannot be named the root cause, that's more to do with people muck up everything we touch. Outside of that...specifically regarding Judeo-Christian influence, what's your beef?

whateverdude said:

Freedom of speech, compassion, equality, acceptance, personal liberty, economic freedom, freedom of and from religion, the constitution...
We have to thank the Great Enlightenment for that.
Not just America, but the entire west.

Click to expand...

Scholasticism, a religious movement promoted by the Church, is directly responsible for the development of our understanding of logic and the creation of a higher education system which would prove to be the foundation of and incubator for enlightenment thinking. The scientific method itself is a refinement of the scholastic method. All of science and the enlightenment can thus be traced directly to the church via the scholastic movement. We have the scholars, and thus the Church, to thank for the enlightenment focus on study, reason, and logic; the invention of the liberal arts (dialectical, rhetoric, and grammar); and the development of the university. If you are a fan of the enlightenment, you are a fan of the work the Church did in the middle ages.

CrabCake said:

Scholasticism, a religious movement promoted by the Church, is directly responsible for the development of our understanding of logic and the creation of a higher education system which would prove to be the foundation of and incubator for enlightenment thinking. The scientific method itself is a refinement of the scholastic method. All of science and the enlightenment can thus be traced directly to the church via the scholastic movement. We have the scholars, and thus the Church, to thank for the enlightenment focus on study, reason, and logic; the invention of the liberal arts (dialectical, rhetoric, and grammar); and the development of the university. If you are a fan of the enlightenment, you are a fan of the work the Church did in the middle ages.

Click to expand...

An antiGodist rant is as disturbing as a crazy theist rant.

whateverdude said:

I would say that most of America's values come from the great enlightenment. At least most good ones.
I mean, yea... Judeo-Christian values have a role in our history. Also, the Third Reich played a role in German history. Does that make it a good thing?
I mean, racism, sexism, genocide, slavery, homophobia... There's your christian legacy.

Freedom of speech, compassion, equality, acceptance, personal liberty, economic freedom, freedom of and from religion, the constitution...
We have to thank the Great Enlightenment for that.
Not just America, but the entire west.
What positive things have any of the abrahamic faiths brought us that wasn't here already?
The church preserving some science?
Yea... they preserved some science that would have advanced better without them. They brought the world back. The Greeks had already began discovering that the world was round yet the Church brought us back thousands of years.
I'd say the west got cucked HARD by Christianity... which is the embodiment of multiculturalism. It's western ideas, mixed with semetic non-sense faith. Multiculturalism created Christianity

Christianity has left nothing positive in American history.
I would challenge anyone to read the bill of rights and tell me how it relates specifically to Christianity?
I mean, what parts of our constitution are inspired directly from Christian doctrine, not the general idea of God. The idea of God giving every single man rights is far more akin to Deism than
In fact, I would say Deism is the greatest western faith.
It's better than atheism and religion.

Also, how "western" is Christianity?
It was adapted from a Jewish zombie cult. It's origins come from the semetic people, not the west.
How American Christians Were Manipulated Into Loving Israel
And Judaism is just as bad.
The dispensationalist teachings of the west has tricked us into supporting the Israeli zionist machine. The globalists are jumping in joy at their foolishness.

We've have been cucked threefold. We were cucked by Constantine the Great into allowing Christianity to violently dominate the west
We've been cucked again by the Zionists.
Now we've been cucked by the muslims
How many times must we be cucked if
I think we must reject ALL abrahamic faiths as perversions of western society. The jews, muslims, and christians have NOTHING to offer us. And we have EVERYTHING to offer them.
WE modernized them... We made them peaceful. If it weren't for us, they'd be acting the same way they were in the inquistion. It's western philosophy, not christianity, that makes a good society

Click to expand...

Cheeseburgers. I thank the God of Abraham for cheeseburgers. Seriously.

Think about it. What are cheeseburgers? Cow bits and moldy milk. What do cows have and what do they do? Chew the cud and sport cloven hooves. They also have a lot of fat. Hence unlike a goat, when you grind up cow meat, it clumps together...the perfect meat for a hamburger patty. God of Abe loves cheeseburgers.

OlNate said:

Really? You really really think the majority of Judeo-Christian influence has been negative? Name me something that is soley tied back to Judeo-Christian influence that is negative - not Judeo-Christian dogma weaponized to serve an individual or group's agenda, not the abuse of power given to someone in a position of authority in the Judeo-Christian infrastructure, neither of those things are limited to Judeo-Christian affiliation, so therefore Judeo-Christian influence cannot be named the root cause, that's more to do with people muck up everything we touch. Outside of that...specifically regarding Judeo-Christian influence, what's your beef?

Click to expand...

Why not Judeo-Christian dogma? Why not the abuse of power given to someone in a position of authority ? That they are not exclusive to the religion does not mean that they do not effect the religion. That the root cause may be that people act corruptly when given unrestrained power is part of the reason that a religion whose purpose was to gain power and influence over others acted corruptly.

These factors are specifically regarding to that religion.

soylentgreen said:

Why not Judeo-Christian dogma? Why not the abuse of power given to someone in a position of authority ? That they are not exclusive to the religion does not mean that they do not effect the religion. That the root cause may be that people act corruptly when given unrestrained power is part of the reason that a religion whose purpose was to gain power and influence over others acted corruptly.

These factors are specifically regarding to that religion.

Click to expand...

Mainly because I can address those things and point to the religious texts that denounce them. Well, at least I can for Christianity, the old testament is a bit harder to defend / explain, but the new testament was a game changer.

And just to be clear, I said weaponized dogma, not the fundamental dogma. It would be the same kind of conversation as saying we blame democracy for an abuse of power by a politician or a political party in a democratic system. I mean, you could, but you'd be trashing an otherwise pretty good system. If you look at what the fundamental dogmas and values that are in the Bible, understanding the progression from the old testament to the new testament, I'm not sure where the complaint lies.

OlNate said:

Mainly because I can address those things and point to the religious texts that denounce them. Well, at least I can for Christianity, the old testament is a bit harder to defend / explain, but the new testament was a game changer.

And just to be clear, I said weaponized dogma, not the fundamental dogma. It would be the same kind of conversation as saying we blame democracy for an abuse of power by a politician or a political party in a democratic system. I mean, you could, but you'd be trashing an otherwise pretty good system. If you look at what the fundamental dogmas and values that are in the Bible, understanding the progression from the old testament to the new testament, I'm not sure where the complaint lies.

Click to expand...

I could point out a lot of things that I think are very counter-productive in the new testiment, such as Jesus's views on slavery and Roman's 13
Besides we had the new testiment since the beginning of the catholic church and somehow it hasn't managed to thwart very many attrocities committed by Christians. It didn't have much an impact on how we treated the native americans or how we treated science during the inquisition.

whateverdude said:

I could point out a lot of things that I think are very counter-productive in the new testiment, such as Jesus's views on slavery and Roman's 13
Besides we had the new testiment since the beginning of the catholic church and somehow it hasn't managed to thwart very many attrocities committed by Christians. It didn't have much an impact on how we treated the native americans or how we treated science during the inquisition.

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Errr...so, Romans 13 is regarding submission to governing authorities - basically, the biblical endorsement of good citizenship.

As for everything you mentioned, here are no biblical endorsement of any of those things...back to people doing things in the name of religion, root cause: people. Anything else?

OlNate said:

Errr...so, Romans 13 is regarding submission to governing authorities - basically, the biblical endorsement of good citizenship.

As for everything you mentioned, here are no biblical endorsement of any of those things...back to people doing things in the name of religion, root cause: people. Anything else?

Click to expand...

More like a biblical endorsement of good sheepishness.
Following corrupt laws and bending to corrupt authority is not being a "good citizen" it's being a complacent citizen.

whateverdude said:

More like a biblical endorsement of good sheepishness.
Following corrupt laws and bending to corrupt authority is not being a "good citizen" it's being a complacent citizen.

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lol....well, you may disagree with it, but generally practising good citizenship is not frowned upon, or anywhere in the same planet, let alone ballpark, as slavery (anarchist / libertarian rhetoric notwithstanding). Also, in the context of the time it was written, this was an act of self preservation, when the alternative was being fed to the lions. SJW's and libertarians didn't have things as easy as they do now...hehe

OlNate said:

Mainly because I can address those things and point to the religious texts that denounce them. Well, at least I can for Christianity, the old testament is a bit harder to defend / explain, but the new testament was a game changer.

And just to be clear, I said weaponized dogma, not the fundamental dogma. It would be the same kind of conversation as saying we blame democracy for an abuse of power by a politician or a political party in a democratic system. I mean, you could, but you'd be trashing an otherwise pretty good system. If you look at what the fundamental dogmas and values that are in the Bible, understanding the progression from the old testament to the new testament, I'm not sure where the complaint lies.

Click to expand...

Ok, i think i get that. But i will disagree on your analogy with democracy. With the christian bible it would be more a case of that the abuse of power and belief from priests and theists in general stem from the fact that the bible is a badly written theology/ mythology. Where as democracy may or may not be a good system in of itself, christianity is not.

As for the second part. The complaint would be that the progression from old to new testament is based on lies. The old testament is nothing more than stories about the past that were made up. The earth is not 6,000 years old, the tower of babbel was never built and moses did not exist, just to name a few.

The new testament is basic politics. A means of controlling people. Which it does by creating really bad morality that no one could possibly live up to and in some case should not want to live up to. Then pointing out that no one has achieved these morals and that they need a god to redeem them from their sins. It is a con game.

The complaint is that your fundamental dogma and values that are in the bible actually have no real value.

CrabCake said:

Scholasticism, a religious movement promoted by the Church, is directly responsible for the development of our understanding of logic and the creation of a higher education system which would prove to be the foundation of and incubator for enlightenment thinking. The scientific method itself is a refinement of the scholastic method. All of science and the enlightenment can thus be traced directly to the church via the scholastic movement. We have the scholars, and thus the Church, to thank for the enlightenment focus on study, reason, and logic; the invention of the liberal arts (dialectical, rhetoric, and grammar); and the development of the university. If you are a fan of the enlightenment, you are a fan of the work the Church did in the middle ages.

Click to expand...

That is a point that I've always loved. The "Church" is responsible for wholesale destruction of bodies of knowledge and works of literature and persecution of scientists then wants credit for the actions of rogue monks or lay persons who saved a few items and stashed them away or dared to challenge it's primitive dogma. Unmitigated gall. The pagans beat you to those things by thousands of years.

soylentgreen said:

Ok, i think i get that. But i will disagree on your analogy with democracy. With the christian bible it would be more a case of that the abuse of power and belief from priests and theists in general stem from the fact that the bible is a badly written theology/ mythology. Where as democracy may or may not be a good system in of itself, christianity is not.

As for the second part. The complaint would be that the progression from old to new testament is based on lies. The old testament is nothing more than stories about the past that were made up. The earth is not 6,000 years old, the tower of babbel was never built and moses did not exist, just to name a few.

The new testament is basic politics. A means of controlling people. Which it does by creating really bad morality that no one could possibly live up to and in some case should not want to live up to. Then pointing out that no one has achieved these morals and that they need a god to redeem them from their sins. It is a con game.

The complaint is that your fundamental dogma and values that are in the bible actually have no real value.

Click to expand...

I get, accept, and certainly don't hate you for the fact that it has no value to you, or think you're less than somehow, but at last check 84% of the world's population subscribe to one religion or another, so I don't think we can summarily dismiss it so easily. There are a lot of different factors that determine value, even if they don't appeal to you personally. But I'm not the kind of religious person that is threatened by or hates atheists, so let's declare this a chat and not a fight, and I think we'll be fine. If that works for you, keep reading. I just hate getting into shouting matches over religion...you've been great so far, just wanted to get that out of the way.

I won't for one second try to convince you the Bible is true...we could have a chat about that in a separate or private discussion, if you like, but for this let's just look at the consequences of the provided texts.

The old testament is a bit of a mess, and is meant to be more of a historical text, a law text, and a prophecy text...with a bit of poetry and general tips (Proverbs) thrown in. It's the story of the Jewish people, pre-year 0(ish). There is some awful stuff in there, but in general it was a pretty awful time.

No, I don't think the world is 6000 years old, that's a rather specific brand of Christian that will hold onto that (You know that there is a wide range of beliefs and dogmas within the denominations of the Christian church, I'm sure. For context, I'm Lutheran). However, the 10 commandments, other than the God-specific one, form a pretty solid basis for religious and secular folks alike. While those concepts seem to be no-brainers to us now, and share some aspects with many other religions, therefore begging the question "Why do we need a Bible to tell us this", you have to remember the time period it was written in, and the role that religion played. Religion was the law. Many of the Jewish laws made sense at the time ... for example, not eating pork was a good idea back in the day, because you could get sick. It's a lot safer now. But it was written then. And the fact that people were fed to lions for entertainment might indicate that "thou shalt not murder" might not have been such a no-brainer at the time...hehe

The new testament is where the value, in my opinion, really kicks in. Yes, there were political elements (such as the part discussed above, where we are told to be good citizens and pay our taxes), but if you look at a lot of what was accredited to Christ, there's some good stuff in there: love your neighbor, the values outlined in the beatitudes, turn the other cheek, etc... And, if you take that a step further, and look at the recorded actions of Christ as an example to follow, not only are there the admirable things he did (his inclusion of societal outcasts, his preference of association with "salt of the earth" types, his caring for the sick and needy, etc), but also some of the perhaps problematic he did (an entire chapter of the bible devoted to "Jesus wept", his condemnation of the dogma driven Pharisees, the way he lost his temper at the temple, his turning water to wine, his demonstration of fear on the eve of crucifixion, his challenging of people being judgmental). These very human traits and behaviors became deified in the figure of Christ, therefore giving us permission to be human, albeit humans guided by love. I find this to be in direct contradiction to your assertion that it advocates a "really bad morality that no one could possibly live up to and in some case should not want to live up to". The fact that it says that no one can achieve perfection is a release, not an imprisonment.

(more to follow, but I've hit my character limit...lol)

The problem that I see with certain sects of Christianity is that they have weaponized this philosophy to do exactly what you allege: they have used it to control people. However, all one needs to do is read the Bible, and that entire strategy falls apart. One again I must insist, it is people who have used Christianity to further their own agendas that are to blame for Christianity's bad rep, not Christianity itself. And is that really hard to believe? I have a hard time thinking of a single human system that wouldn't demonstrate a good and bad side of the same coin. Democracy, capitalism, education, the Internet, Freedom of Speech, medicine, science, these have all been used to both help and harm the human race at one time or another, often simultaneously. I do find it pretty funny that the extreme right claim some kind of religious authority, and therefore superiority...Christ was the biggest socialist of all time...hehe

Is it a "con"...? I don't think so, but I am a Christian...hehe... I know that my entire understanding of the universe is based on my personal faith, I have no way to prove any of it, and as such I know it is mine alone, and would not ever assume to tell someone else they are wrong for not sharing it. I will tell my son about it, but I will respect his decision on how he chooses to live his own life. I don't even look at someone who doesn't believe the same way as I do and consider them "damned" or "going to Hell"....primarily because my religion tells me not to.

But even if you are right, even if the whole thing was made up by some 100th century monk on an epic mushroom trip, what is in there is pretty solid. It demonstrates the transition from a warlike, tribal existence to an enlightened attempt on the part of human beings to love each other and look after each other, ensuring no one is left behind. Yes, there are problematic elements, absolutely, and I have struggled with those in the past...but when put into context of the time it was written, or when Christ's amendments to the Old Testament existence were initiated, it becomes clear that the message of love far overshadows the problematic elements, based on the priority Christ put on it. If an atheist were to look at the Bible not as a holy text, but merely a story from which to gain insights into how to be a better person, there are plenty of take aways that I'm sure you would agree are not without value.

And, while it's easy to find examples of the harm that people have done in the name of Christianity (very carefully worded sentence, that....hehe), there are, of course, lots of examples of the good people have done in the name of Christianity as well....just like any other human endeavor. If we leave those out, we aren't telling the whole truth, in the same way that zealots refuse to acknowledge the negative.

Whadya think? Will admit that I've been pretty generous in my glossing over the more problematic elements, but I'm reasonably comfortable with what I've written as a counter point...

OlNate said:

I get, accept, and certainly don't hate you for the fact that it has no value to you, or think you're less than somehow, but at last check 84% of the world's population subscribe to one religion or another, so I don't think we can summarily dismiss it so easily.

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You do know what an appeal to popularity fallacy is?

There are a lot of different factors that determine value, even if they don't appeal to you personally. But I'm not the kind of religious person that is threatened by or hates atheists, so let's declare this a chat and not a fight, and I think we'll be fine. If that works for you, keep reading. I just hate getting into shouting matches over religion...you've been great so far, just wanted to get that out of the way.

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Fine by me as long as your not against sarcasm as well we should be ok.

I won't for one second try to convince you the Bible is true...we could have a chat about that in a separate or private discussion, if you like, but for this let's just look at the consequences of the provided texts.

Click to expand...

I have always looked upon these type of discussions not as trying to prove a point but seeing if my opponent can come up with something that would make me rethink my position.

The old testament is a bit of a mess, and is meant to be more of a historical text, a law text, and a prophecy text...with a bit of poetry and general tips (Proverbs) thrown in. It's the story of the Jewish people, pre-year 0(ish). There is some awful stuff in there, but in general it was a pretty awful time.

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Considering the jews reject the christian bible for their own version then it's not much cop as a history of the jews. And as i said it is not a history but rather a fictitious account using some historical facts. That the jews exodus from egypt happened but not with moses leading a couple of million into a desert for 40 odd years.

No, I don't think the world is 6000 years old, that's a rather specific brand of Christian that will hold onto that (You know that there is a wide range of beliefs and dogmas within the denominations of the Christian church, I'm sure. For context, I'm Lutheran). However, the 10 commandments, other than the God-specific one, form a pretty solid basis for religious and secular folks alike. While those concepts seem to be no-brainers to us now, and share some aspects with many other religions, therefore begging the question "Why do we need a Bible to tell us this", you have to remember the time period it was written in, and the role that religion played. Religion was the law. Many of the Jewish laws made sense at the time ... for example, not eating pork was a good idea back in the day, because you could get sick. It's a lot safer now. But it was written then. And the fact that people were fed to lions for entertainment might indicate that "thou shalt not murder" might not have been such a no-brainer at the time...hehe

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I would argue that religion was a necessary tool for the creation of civilisation. But one that has now outlived its use by date and is no longer necessary. In fact the continued use of religion has now become a drag on civilisation.

The new testament is where the value, in my opinion, really kicks in. Yes, there were political elements (such as the part discussed above, where we are told to be good citizens and pay our taxes), but if you look at a lot of what was accredited to Christ, there's some good stuff in there: love your neighbor, the values outlined in the beatitudes, turn the other cheek, etc... And, if you take that a step further, and look at the recorded actions of Christ as an example to follow, not only are there the admirable things he did (his inclusion of societal outcasts, his preference of association with "salt of the earth" types, his caring for the sick and needy, etc), but also some of the perhaps problematic he did (an entire chapter of the bible devoted to "Jesus wept", his condemnation of the dogma driven Pharisees, the way he lost his temper at the temple, his turning water to wine, his demonstration of fear on the eve of crucifixion, his challenging of people being judgmental). These very human traits and behaviors became deified in the figure of Christ, therefore giving us permission to be human, albeit humans guided by love. I find this to be in direct contradiction to your assertion that it advocates a "really bad morality that no one could possibly live up to and in some case should not want to live up to". The fact that it says that no one can achieve perfection is a release, not an imprisonment.

(more to follow, but I've hit my character limit...lol)

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jesus is just another myth. a parable intended to teach a moral. A moral that is unachievable and so becomes further vindication that we live in sin and need a god to redeem us. His story is the laying of a guilt trip. One intended to make us feel a need for a god that really is not there.

The problem that I see with certain sects of Christianity is that they have weaponized this philosophy to do exactly what you allege: they have used it to control people. However, all one needs to do is read the Bible, and that entire strategy falls apart. One again I must insist, it is people who have used Christianity to further their own agendas that are to blame for Christianity's bad rep, not Christianity itself. And is that really hard to believe? I have a hard time thinking of a single human system that wouldn't demonstrate a good and bad side of the same coin. Democracy, capitalism, education, the Internet, Freedom of Speech, medicine, science, these have all been used to both help and harm the human race at one time or another, often simultaneously. I do find it pretty funny that the extreme right claim some kind of religious authority, and therefore superiority...Christ was the biggest socialist of all time...hehe

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Which basically i have no problem with. religion is a tool of the greedy to enforce their own desires. Where as a personal and subjective belief is just spirituality. And every one should be allowed the right for that.

Is it a "con"...? I don't think so, but I am a Christian...hehe... I know that my entire understanding of the universe is based on my personal faith, I have no way to prove any of it, and as such I know it is mine alone, and would not ever assume to tell someone else they are wrong for not sharing it. I will tell my son about it, but I will respect his decision on how he chooses to live his own life. I don't even look at someone who doesn't believe the same way as I do and consider them "damned" or "going to Hell"....primarily because my religion tells me not to.

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Again agreed. I will not argue with faith. But if you start to say you have evidence of a god or even a good reason for belief then i will argue the point. As an atheist i take the view that the lack of belief in a god arises from the fact that no evidence of one has ever been produced nor has anyone ever come up with a good reason for the existence of one. Therefor their is no reason to even consider a god let alone argue the existence of one.

But even if you are right, even if the whole thing was made up by some 100th century monk on an epic mushroom trip, what is in there is pretty solid. It demonstrates the transition from a warlike, tribal existence to an enlightened attempt on the part of human beings to love each other and look after each other, ensuring no one is left behind. Yes, there are problematic elements, absolutely, and I have struggled with those in the past...but when put into context of the time it was written, or when Christ's amendments to the Old Testament existence were initiated, it becomes clear that the message of love far overshadows the problematic elements, based on the priority Christ put on it.

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No, not really. The jews have there own books to follow and ignore the bible. The new testament is nothing more than a christians ( paul) attempt to sell the religion to the gentiles. Hence the change from a covenant with god the jews had to a more acceptable acceptance of jesus which the gentiles have.

If an atheist were to look at the Bible not as a holy text, but merely a story from which to gain insights into how to be a better person, there are plenty of take aways that I'm sure you would agree are not without value.

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No hate to disillusion you there but... if you take the religion out of it all you have left is a really badly written self help book. Leave the religion in and what you have is a book so badly written that one could take from it that you should help little old ladies across the street or pick up a gun and start murdering abortion clinic doctors.

And, while it's easy to find examples of the harm that people have done in the name of Christianity (very carefully worded sentence, that....hehe), there are, of course, lots of examples of the good people have done in the name of Christianity as well....just like any other human endeavor. If we leave those out, we aren't telling the whole truth, in the same way that zealots refuse to acknowledge the negative.
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Unfortunately it is a case that good people will do good things regardless of whether they are a christian or an atheist. And bad people will do bad things. But there is also a third catagory of people who do bad things in the name of a god. And you have to be a theist to be that kind of person.

Whadya think? Will admit that I've been pretty generous in my glossing over the more problematic elements, but I'm reasonably comfortable with what I've written as a counter point..

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That was just the easy bit. Like the conversation with pilate. Wait till we get to the flogging and nailing of your beliefs to a cross. Then we will see if your so generous.

Nice straw man you stood up there OP.

whateverdude said:

I could point out a lot of things that I think are very counter-productive in the new testiment, such as Jesus's views on slavery and Roman's 13
Besides we had the new testiment since the beginning of the catholic church and somehow it hasn't managed to thwart very many attrocities committed by Christians. It didn't have much an impact on how we treated the native americans or how we treated science during the inquisition.

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What you miss with Christ is not that he wanted to make the world great. He didn't say if you follow me the world will be great. Just the opposite.
He said this world is going to hell in a hand basket, and we can clearly see the historical data backing this up.
He gave us the key to life, not a better world. We are not good enough to follow Him all in accord and make this world as it should be. He understood that, and so should you.
It is within the grasp of a thinking person who will look at history and the things men still do to each other today.

Napoleon said:

That is a point that I've always loved. The "Church" is responsible for wholesale destruction of bodies of knowledge and works of literature and persecution of scientists then wants credit for the actions of rogue monks or lay persons who saved a few items and stashed them away or dared to challenge it's primitive dogma. Unmitigated gall. The pagans beat you to those things by thousands of years.

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They weren't rogue monks, they were the institutions the Church established. The scholastic movement was a widespread, church-sponsored movement that introduced the world to the foundations of: logic, rhetoric, and higher education that led directly to the enlightenment. In fact, the enlightenment arose from these institutions. This is basic history and it simply doesn't match the weird church vs learning alternate reality you described. We still have these institutions; Cambridge is still there; we still have copies of many of the lectures and writings from the time; we still have copies of the Papal decrees that pushed for the spread of education...none of this is mysterious or controversial, it seems you simply don't know about it.

OlNate said:

Mainly because I can address those things and point to the religious texts that denounce them. Well, at least I can for Christianity, the old testament is a bit harder to defend / explain, but the new testament was a game changer.

And just to be clear, I said weaponized dogma, not the fundamental dogma. It would be the same kind of conversation as saying we blame democracy for an abuse of power by a politician or a political party in a democratic system. I mean, you could, but you'd be trashing an otherwise pretty good system. If you look at what the fundamental dogmas and values that are in the Bible, understanding the progression from the old testament to the new testament, I'm not sure where the complaint lies.

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All dogma is a weapon. Nobody has to work that hard to make you believe an empirical truth. Religion first corrupts your personal bull**** detector and then it asks you to believe bull****.