The Passion of Southern Christians

Risky Thicket · Apr 10, 2017

Recently we've begun to see Christian friends here in Arizona question their rabid, maniacal support for Trump. I'm not saying they've dumped Trump. We do have friends from my wife's church, however, who have begun to question how much Christianity they have to give up to be a Trump supporter.

In the deep South where I grew up, where my family has lived since the early 1700s and where 99% of my family lives today there doesn't seem to be a conflict between Jesus and Trump. Most, not all, of my family and friends in Dixie somehow see Jesus and Trump as very compatible. Even though Trump's proposed policies will hurt the people of the Southland as much or more than the rest of America Dixie Christians are still on board. Maybe Southern churches are de-emphasizing select lessons Jesus taught when they conflict with Trump's plans for the nation and the world. I couldn't tell you.

NASHVILLE — In the world of apostolic betrayals, it’s Judas who gets the headlines, but the everyday believer is more apt to fall in line behind Peter. Coldly handing Jesus over to his death in exchange for 30 pieces of silver was an over-the-top, cartoon-level move, but Peter’s terrified denial of the man he believed to be the savior of the world? That one seems immensely human to me. I have a lot of sympathy for Peter these days. Here it is nearly Easter, and for the first time in my life I don’t want anyone to know I’m a believer. To many, “Christian” has become synonymous with angry white voters in red hats, personally responsible for handcuffing all those undocumented mothers and wrenching them out of their sobbing children’s arms.

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Tribal bonds have always been a challenge for our species. What’s new is how baldly the 2016 election exposed the collision between basic Christian values and Republican Party loyalty. By any conceivable definition, the sitting president of the United States is the utter antithesis of Christian values — a misogynist who disdains refugees, persecutes immigrants, condones torture and is energetically working to dismantle the safety net that protects our most vulnerable neighbors. Watching Christians put him in the White House has completely broken my heart.

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11Bravo · Apr 10, 2017

Risky Thicket said:
Recently we've begun to see Christian friends here in Arizona question their rabid, maniacal support for Trump. I'm not saying they've dumped Trump. We do have friends from my wife's church, however, who have begun to question how much Christianity they have to give up to be a Trump supporter.

In the deep South where I grew up, where my family has lived since the early 1700s and where 99% of my family lives today there doesn't seem to be a conflict between Jesus and Trump. Most, not all, of my family and friends in Dixie somehow see Jesus and Trump as very compatible. Even though Trump's proposed policies will hurt the people of the Southland as much or more than the rest of America Dixie Christians are still on board. Maybe Southern churches are de-emphasizing select lessons Jesus taught when they conflict with Trump's plans for the nation and the world. I couldn't tell you.

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god sent us trump so we can build tha wall keep america safe n so we can be a christian nation again

RabidAlpaca · Apr 10, 2017

Anyone that's ever read a single word out of Jesus' mouth should know that Trump is one of the least Christ-like people to walk the planet, much less run for president. Trump could not differ more from him if he tried. I think it goes to show that most people just make up their own decisions then overlay "god's support" on top of whatever it is they chose.

Chomsky · Apr 10, 2017

Risky Thicket said:
Recently we've begun to see Christian friends here in Arizona question their rabid, maniacal support for Trump. I'm not saying they've dumped Trump. We do have friends from my wife's church, however, who have begun to question how much Christianity they have to give up to be a Trump supporter.

In the deep South where I grew up, where my family has lived since the early 1700s and where 99% of my family lives today there doesn't seem to be a conflict between Jesus and Trump. Most, not all, of my family and friends in Dixie somehow see Jesus and Trump as very compatible. Even though Trump's proposed policies will hurt the people of the Southland as much or more than the rest of America Dixie Christians are still on board. Maybe Southern churches are de-emphasizing select lessons Jesus taught when they conflict with Trump's plans for the nation and the world. I couldn't tell you.

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With all due respect to you, your family, and your neighbors, the truth of the matter is many of those same religious folks supported Jim Crows laws and fought against Civil Rights legislation in the sixties.

A century earlier many fought a war to keep slaves.

So this incongruity does not surprise me at all.

And this is why many non-believers lose respect for the faithful.

Zyphlin · Apr 10, 2017

Moderator's Warning:

Thread clearly deals more with politics mixing with religion, than it is asking a debate about spirituality/faith issues. Moved to a more appropriate location

Chomsky · Apr 10, 2017

If anyone wants to really see this phenomenon in action, simply Google "Trump + God or Christ".

You'll see a plethora of religious sites claiming Trump is an instrument of God, and one must vote for and accept Trump in order to be saved.

Thank God I'm a Catholic, because The Church has a strict policy of 'no politics' from the altar!

nota bene · Apr 10, 2017

Risky Thicket said:
Recently we've begun to see Christian friends here in Arizona question their rabid, maniacal support for Trump. I'm not saying they've dumped Trump. We do have friends from my wife's church, however, who have begun to question how much Christianity they have to give up to be a Trump supporter.

In the deep South where I grew up, where my family has lived since the early 1700s and where 99% of my family lives today there doesn't seem to be a conflict between Jesus and Trump. Most, not all, of my family and friends in Dixie somehow see Jesus and Trump as very compatible. Even though Trump's proposed policies will hurt the people of the Southland as much or more than the rest of America Dixie Christians are still on board. Maybe Southern churches are de-emphasizing select lessons Jesus taught when they conflict with Trump's plans for the nation and the world. I couldn't tell you.

Yesterday was Palm Sunday, and the Gospel reading was about Jesus’s entrance into Jerusalem, the betrayal of Judas for the 30 pieces of silver, the Last Supper, the events in the Garden of Gethsemane, and the same people cheering His entrance into the city then crying “Crucify Him!” And Pilate washing his hands of the situation.

There are lessons to be learned from all this about fleeting loyalties and political expedience as well as about the difference between the kingdoms of this world and the Kingdom of Heaven.

I don’t ever hear political commentary in my church, and the reason, I think, is that the focus is not on any earthly kingdoms. I don’t think there is any comparison to be made between any world leaders and Christ.

chromium · Apr 10, 2017

Forget policies, the man has been married how many times, and does "grab em by the *****" sound very jesus to you? Not to mention "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

How in the world is he compatible? All these decades conducting a witch hunt on anyone with even a hint of sexuality and now they wanna let this slide because why, he let loose with some totally unbelievably overacting anti abortion rant in the debate? Or he's republican is all it takes? Obviously he's not the first, given how many evolution and climate change deniers in the republican circus have had 4+ marriages and affairs

But you ask about policies, fine, does the complete reverse robin hood in the health care debacle, depriving 24 million of insurance seem very christian? Building a wall and travel bans on refugees?

He thinks he is god, that's about the only similarity i see

Red_Dave · Apr 10, 2017

Chomsky said:
Thank God I'm a Catholic, because The Church has a strict policy of 'no politics' from the altar!

Franco disagrees :shock: (That´s not to bash catholics on a whole, but on a purely objective level that wouldn´t seem to be correct)

CLAX1911 · Apr 10, 2017

Chomsky said:
If anyone wants to really see this phenomenon in action, simply Google "Trump + God or Christ".

You'll see a plethora of religious sites claiming Trump is an instrument of God, and one must vote for and accept Trump in order to be saved.

Thank God I'm a Catholic, because The Church has a strict policy of 'no politics' from the altar!

They do it from the Vatican. That dumbass pope needs to practice what he preaches

Tanngrisnir · Apr 10, 2017

Risky Thicket said:
Recently we've begun to see Christian friends here in Arizona question their rabid, maniacal support for Trump. I'm not saying they've dumped Trump. We do have friends from my wife's church, however, who have begun to question how much Christianity they have to give up to be a Trump supporter.

In the deep South where I grew up, where my family has lived since the early 1700s and where 99% of my family lives today there doesn't seem to be a conflict between Jesus and Trump. Most, not all, of my family and friends in Dixie somehow see Jesus and Trump as very compatible. Even though Trump's proposed policies will hurt the people of the Southland as much or more than the rest of America Dixie Christians are still on board. Maybe Southern churches are de-emphasizing select lessons Jesus taught when they conflict with Trump's plans for the nation and the world. I couldn't tell you.

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Well, it helps to keep in mind that most self-described 'Christians', at least to my experience and especially in the South, don't know the bible.

As in, they literally are unfamiliar with the contents of the bible, the history of the bible, etc...

Chomsky · Apr 10, 2017

Red_Dave said:
Franco disagrees :shock: (That´s not to bash catholics on a whole, but on a purely objective level that wouldn´t seem to be correct)

A half century ago. Before there was the inquisition, but I don't think we would attribute that m.o. to today's Church. But point taken.

CLAX1911 said:
They do it from the Vatican. That dumbass pope needs to practice what he preaches

Alright, good enough points to prove exceptions.

I'm an American Catholic, and from day one we've always been told through The Church and other sources that politics from the alter is strictly verboten. That's not to say ethical topics and events are not used, but that no support or detraction can be thrown at specific candidates or parties. And that's been my experience in the American Church.

So I'm happy to qualify my comment by limiting it to The American Church, and in the current time period. I'm also willing to concede there may be some rare exception, but I believe my comment is reasonably accurate in general.

And yes, it does seem the Pope is independent of this.

Chomsky · Apr 10, 2017

chromium said:
Forget policies, the man has been married how many times, and does "grab em by the *****" sound very jesus to you? Not to mention "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

How in the world is he compatible? All these decades conducting a witch hunt on anyone with even a hint of sexuality and now they wanna let this slide because why, he let loose with some totally unbelievably overacting anti abortion rant in the debate? Or he's republican is all it takes? Obviously he's not the first, given how many evolution and climate change deniers in the republican circus have had 4+ marriages and affairs

But you ask about policies, fine, does the complete reverse robin hood in the health care debacle, depriving 24 million of insurance seem very christian? Building a wall and travel bans on refugees?

He thinks he is god, that's about the only similarity i see

:thumbs:

CLAX1911 · Apr 10, 2017

Chomsky said:
A half century ago. Before there was the inquisition, but I don't think we would attribute that m.o. to today's Church. But point taken.

Alright, good enough points to prove exceptions.

I'm an American Catholic, and from day one we've always been told through The Church and other sources that politics from the alter is strictly verboten. That's not to say ethical topics and events are not used, but that no support or detraction can be thrown at specific candidates or parties. And that's been my experience in the American Church.

In confused, the Catholic church is the Roman church not the American church.

So I'm happy to qualify my comment by limiting it to The American Church, and in the current time period. I'm also willing to concede there may be some rare exception, but I believe my comment is reasonably accurate in general.

And yes, it does seem the Pope is independent of this.

No, the Catholic church is owned by the Vatican. It's priests employees of the Vatican. The only thing American about the church is the parishiners.

Fishking · Apr 10, 2017

Chomsky said:
If anyone wants to really see this phenomenon in action, simply Google "Trump + God or Christ".

You'll see a plethora of religious sites claiming Trump is an instrument of God, and one must vote for and accept Trump in order to be saved.

Thank God I'm a Catholic, because The Church has a strict policy of 'no politics' from the altar!

Well, it's not out of the realm of biblical context. I don't agree but it's definitely not from out of no where.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Bible

Cyrus the Great is unconditionally praised in the Jewish sources. It is likely that, after the Persian conquest of Babylon, Cyrus had commenced his relationship with the Jewish leaders in exile,[2] and that he later was considered as a messiah sent by God.[3]

DashingAmerican · Apr 10, 2017

Risky Thicket said:
Recently we've begun to see Christian friends here in Arizona question their rabid, maniacal support for Trump. I'm not saying they've dumped Trump. We do have friends from my wife's church, however, who have begun to question how much Christianity they have to give up to be a Trump supporter.

In the deep South where I grew up, where my family has lived since the early 1700s and where 99% of my family lives today there doesn't seem to be a conflict between Jesus and Trump. Most, not all, of my family and friends in Dixie somehow see Jesus and Trump as very compatible. Even though Trump's proposed policies will hurt the people of the Southland as much or more than the rest of America Dixie Christians are still on board. Maybe Southern churches are de-emphasizing select lessons Jesus taught when they conflict with Trump's plans for the nation and the world. I couldn't tell you.

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I will never understand the Christian support for Donald Trump. I WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND IT!

This man is a liar, a womanizer, an adulterer; he's just not a good man, but lo and behold here come the republican Christians throwing their support because republican=Christian.

Now on to the rest

I go to a church here in town that has 2 services of about 500 people each. It's an amazing church that hits you with the truth, but the most amazing thing is they put their money where there mouth is. The church does a lot to help the community and calls out anyone, regular attender or not, that's not pulling their weight.

CrabCake · Apr 12, 2017

Chomsky said:
If anyone wants to really see this phenomenon in action, simply Google "Trump + God or Christ".

You'll see a plethora of religious sites claiming Trump is an instrument of God, and one must vote for and accept Trump in order to be saved.

Maybe if you dig deep into the results, but I tried it and here's the first 5 results and snippets that show what they are about:
https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/should-christians-fear-trumps-god

Christians must reject Trump’s nativism, ensure he preserves religious liberty for minorities, and delegitimize any attempts to unite Trumpism with Christianity.

https://theweeflea.com/2017/01/20/is-donald-trump-the-christian-president/

To those evangelicals who have signed up as Trump supporters and endorsers – please stop it!

Almost all U.S. presidents have been Christians, including Trump | Pew Research Center
This one's actually just a run-down of all of the past president's religions.

When God steps in: Why the Christian Right is rejoicing under Trump?s presidency - Salon.com
This one is an article by liberals against evangelicals

Did God Choose Trump? What it Means to Believe in Divine Intervention - Christian News Headlines

Those God chose in the Bible were flawed because they were unassuming and unexpected, he says. Gideon was an ordinary shepherd. David was the last of his brothers. And David was a flawed leader. “But ultimately what sets him apart is when confronted with his sins he acknowledged them” and repented.

“I don’t think that’s the Donald J. Trump life story,” Bretzke says. “I don’t think that’s where I would put the smart biblical money.”

I tried what you suggested and did not see what you claimed I would, at least not in the first page of results.

Crovax · Apr 13, 2017

Chomsky said:
A half century ago. Before there was the inquisition, but I don't think we would attribute that m.o. to today's Church. But point taken.

Alright, good enough points to prove exceptions.

I'm an American Catholic, and from day one we've always been told through The Church and other sources that politics from the alter is strictly verboten. That's not to say ethical topics and events are not used, but that no support or detraction can be thrown at specific candidates or parties. And that's been my experience in the American Church.

So I'm happy to qualify my comment by limiting it to The American Church, and in the current time period. I'm also willing to concede there may be some rare exception, but I believe my comment is reasonably accurate in general.

And yes, it does seem the Pope is independent of this.

My fiancee says there is stuff that Catholics are supposed to do and not do all the time and I always get her all flustered by asking the scriptural basis for it.

SmartCat · Apr 13, 2017

Like Ronald Reagan, Donald Trump exploits nostalgia for the 1950's in an effort to restore the economic status quo of the 1920's.

During the 1950's over half of the U.S. population attended church or synagogue regularly. The divorce rate was low. The illegitimacy rate was only six percent. I was a child back then. It was a good time to be a child.

Nevertheless, in a country like the United States there is little the government can do to influence religious and sexual behavior. Therefore, they are not political issues.

Since the founding of the Moral Majority in 1979 Christian conservatives have tried though political activism to restore the moral ethos of the 1950's. They have failed.

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Gallup MAY 26, 2015

PRINCETON, N.J. -- Americans are more likely now than in the early 2000s to find a variety of behaviors morally acceptable, including gay and lesbian relations, having a baby outside of marriage and sex between an unmarried man and woman. Moral acceptability of many of these issues is now at a record-high level.
Americans Continue to Shift Left on Key Moral Issues | Gallup

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The fact that Christian conservatives support a womanizing pagan who pretends to share their social concerns is evidence of how desperate they have become.

ALiberalModerate · Apr 13, 2017

Tanngrisnir said:
Well, it helps to keep in mind that most self-described 'Christians', at least to my experience and especially in the South, don't know the bible.

As in, they literally are unfamiliar with the contents of the bible, the history of the bible, etc...

Hardly. The most Biblically literate Christians are Baptists, Pentecostals, and Conservative Evangelicals (they typically call themselves Bible Believing). Those are the dominate sects in the South, and they read the Bible more than anyone.

Southern Christians are by far the most Biblically literate of Christians. The problem is that you can get anything out of the Bible you want.

As a side note, this notion that Jesus was not involved in politics is absurd. There was no difference between religion and politics in ancient Israel. The idea of a secular government would have been a foreign notion to them.

RAMOSS · Apr 13, 2017

SouthernDemocrat said:
Hardly. The most Biblically literate Christians are Baptists, Pentecostals, and Conservative Evangelicals (they typically call themselves Bible Believing). Those are the dominate sects in the South, and they read the Bible more than anyone.

Southern Christians are by far the most Biblically literate of Christians. The problem is that you can get anything out of the Bible you want.

As a side note, this notion that Jesus was not involved in politics is absurd. There was no difference between religion and politics in ancient Israel. The idea of a secular government would have been a foreign notion to them.

One issue I have found talking with many is that they weren't taught to read in context, either within what ever translation they are using, or from a cultural/historical foundation. It has turned a lot of it into 'theology by sound bits'

ALiberalModerate · Apr 13, 2017

RAMOSS said:
One issue I have found talking with many is that they weren't taught to read in context, either within what ever translation they are using, or from a cultural/historical foundation. It has turned a lot of it into 'theology by sound bits'

Because they read it all as literal history. Moses literally parted the Red Sea, the flood was a worldwide flood and all animals were saved upon the Ark and so on. If you think every word in the Bible is of divine origin, it changes your entire perspective on it.

RAMOSS · Apr 13, 2017

SouthernDemocrat said:
Because they read it all as literal history. Moses literally parted the Red Sea, the flood was a worldwide flood and all animals were saved upon the Ark and so on. If you think every word in the Bible is of divine origin, it changes your entire perspective on it.

Not everyone who thinks the bible is of divine origin takes it literally. However, your point is taken. Taking it literally does make a difference.

Parrish · Apr 13, 2017

Then there was Trump.

Jesus wept.

Goshin · Apr 13, 2017

Risky Thicket said:
Recently we've begun to see Christian friends here in Arizona question their rabid, maniacal support for Trump. I'm not saying they've dumped Trump. We do have friends from my wife's church, however, who have begun to question how much Christianity they have to give up to be a Trump supporter.

In the deep South where I grew up, where my family has lived since the early 1700s and where 99% of my family lives today there doesn't seem to be a conflict between Jesus and Trump. Most, not all, of my family and friends in Dixie somehow see Jesus and Trump as very compatible. Even though Trump's proposed policies will hurt the people of the Southland as much or more than the rest of America Dixie Christians are still on board. Maybe Southern churches are de-emphasizing select lessons Jesus taught when they conflict with Trump's plans for the nation and the world. I couldn't tell you.

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I'm really surprised, and disappointed, that you chose to take this tack.

There are so many errors in this viewpoint I don't even know where to begin responding to them all. Maybe later.

In brief:
1. Gov't mandated welfare is not the same as personal charity, and Jesus taught the latter.
2. "Illegal" matters. Risk of Jihadi's matters. Jesus also taught respect for the law.
3. The main reason I voted Trump was the alternative was Hillary, TMK the most utterly corrupt individual to run in my lifetime, whose agenda included many items I was vehemently opposed to.
4. I've heard very few pastors or parishoners claiming Trump is a Godly man. I knew he wasn't. I had to deal with the choices available to me: bad and worse.

The Passion of Southern Christians

Risky Thicket

Sewer Rat

11Bravo

RabidAlpaca

Engineer

Chomsky

Social Democrat

Zyphlin

Chomsky

Social Democrat

nota bene

chromium

Red_Dave

Libertarian socialist

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

Tanngrisnir

Chomsky

Social Democrat

Chomsky

Social Democrat

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

Fishking

DashingAmerican

Civil Libertarian

CrabCake

Crovax

SmartCat

ALiberalModerate

Pragmatist

RAMOSS

ALiberalModerate

Pragmatist

RAMOSS

Parrish

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod