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It's okay to criticize Islam.

Sweden said:
It's because the 'critique' always consists of infantile insults. My assertions that Islam is cruel, backward etc. are never actually addressed. If you wish to argue that condemning to death those that leave Islam is an example of tolerance I would be interested in listening to you.
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Congratulations on attacking a point that I do not make. Now let's try this again. Yes or no, do you believe that attacking Muslims--not the religion, but the people--is OK? Yes or no.
 
Khaled Al Razi said:
I know most religions are harmful, but Islam is more authoritarian is because it is also political in the Qur'an : "Islam is a religion and a state". Christianity has been reformed. Islam is still younger.


But when was the last time have u seen a Christian committing terrorism?
And in Islamic countries, If you are a teacher and want to teach children about Evolution they will slit your throat.
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Exactly. Islam is not merely a 'religion'. It is an absolutist philosophy, a mind set, a world view, coupled to a legal system and a political programme. Islam is in every way incompatible with post-enlightenment 'Western' civilised values.
 
Phys251 said:
Congratulations on attacking a point that I do not make. Now let's try this again. Yes or no, do you believe that attacking Muslims--not the religion, but the people--is OK? Yes or no.
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Should I reply to stupid questions from darkest Georgia? Yes or no.
 
Sweden said:
Should I reply to stupid questions from darkest Georgia? Yes or no.
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It was a fair question. Now answer it if you want me to take you seriously.
 
Phys251 said:
It was a fair question. Now answer it if you want me to take you seriously.
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Should I care how you 'take me'? Yes or no.
 
Sweden said:
Should I care how you 'take me'? Yes or no.
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So you're going to avoid the question. Let me know when you're ready to have a civil debate.
 
X Factor said:
That's racist!!!

I'm joking. I'm Christian and, of course, there are plenty of atheists that say the same things about Christianity. I have fairly often been told here that it's good and right to question and criticize Christianity/Christians, even seeing it argued that my faith quite probably makes me a worse person. One the other hand, when criticism of Islam comes up, two responses are nearly inevitable, one is, "but not al Muslims are..." (like, no duh) and second is to deflect usually with "But look what Christians do/have done." Islam is the one religion where criticism quite often results in an accusation of racism, hence my joke earlier. The most common explanation I see for the lack of parity is that Islam is a minority religion in the U.S so it requires more tolerance to which I'd point out that Islam has a pretty large number of non-Islam defenders, which is not true for Christianity.

What I don't understand is why all those things about why it's good and right to question/criticize the beliefs of Christians do not apply to Islam.
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I think the racism accusation is one of double standard, ignoring the violence and sexism and homophobia and etc from christians while laying the same charge against muslims. It being a small minority means it's pointless to criticize. It just has very little bearing on life here. It can't influence an entire state to oppress anyone. But that also means people aren't exposed to its dark sides the same way either. I do think that changed somewhat after the Orlando attack

Islam in the middle east is just something few people get. A lot of the criticism towards islam is rooted in evils like ISIS and of course the 9/11 attacks, but the reality is there's a massive propaganda effort and a lot of poverty and illiteracy fueling those. There's often only like 3 books translated into arabic per year and one of them is the Saudi koran, which bears very little in common with the translation most muslims in this country are exposed to. So it's actually more like separate religions and that's before all the different sects

From the liberal/academic view, islam as a force in the middle east is universally condemned, but in the west it's a lot more of a vulnerable, misunderstood, and mostly harmless minority that gets a lot of vitriol...kind of like our history with racial minorities
 
JumpinJack said:
Christianity is also anti-big bang theory & Darwinism & biology & geology. The Bible requires wives to "submit" to their husbands, and the Catholic Church does not allow female Priests. The Jewish religion doesn't allow female rabbis, I think.

I think all religions are misogynistic to some degree, and anti-science.

In the older days, Christians killed anyone who wouldn't convert to Christianity. And we all know of all the wars in England over Catholicism vs. Protestantism, resulting in much blood of innocent people being shed. Christianity has been used as a basis to prove the inferiority of minorities, females, homosexuals, and others. Other religions, too.

The radical Islamists seem to be several hundred years behind the times, though. What they are doing now was what the religions were doing hundreds of years ago. Tolerance of others' views has grown in the meantime, but apparently not in Islamic countries, where time has stood still. That is probably related to lack of secular education, withholding human rights from women, the religion being mixed with their government, and not having to get along with other religions in their countries and governments.

I think Islam may be the worst as far as keeping women down and preventing them from living full, happy lives with human rights, educaion, able to earn a living, freedom, and such.
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Ah, the old, "BUT BUT CHRISTIANITY SUCKS TOO!" argument. How..... unoriginal. :roll:
 
Phys251 said:
So you're going to avoid the question. Let me know when you're ready to have a civil debate.
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Those who ask a question followed by an aggressive 'yes or no' should themselves learn civility; others may then conclude that they are worth talking to.
 
chromium said:
I think the racism accusation is one of double standard, ignoring the violence and sexism and homophobia and etc from christians while laying the same charge against muslims. It being a small minority means it's pointless to criticize. It just has very little bearing on life here. It can't influence an entire state to oppress anyone. But that also means people aren't exposed to its dark sides the same way either. I do think that changed somewhat after the Orlando attack

Islam in the middle east is just something few people get. A lot of the criticism towards islam is rooted in evils like ISIS and of course the 9/11 attacks, but the reality is there's a massive propaganda effort and a lot of poverty and illiteracy fueling those. There's often only like 3 books translated into arabic per year and one of them is the Saudi koran, which bears very little in common with the translation most muslims in this country are exposed to. So it's actually more like separate religions and that's before all the different sects

From the liberal/academic view, islam as a force in the middle east is universally condemned, but in the west it's a lot more of a vulnerable, misunderstood, and mostly harmless minority that gets a lot of vitriol...kind of like our history with racial minorities
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I agree that Muslims in Britain are mostly - say 90% - harmless. But that leaves 300,000 who are potentially very harmful indeed.

I also agree that Islam is largely misunderstood. In particular by those who do not understand that it is inherently 'radical'. There are moderate Muslims, but there is no such thing as moderate Islam.
 
Sweden said:
I agree that Muslims in Britain are mostly - say 90% - harmless. But that leaves 300,000 who are potentially very harmful indeed.

I also agree that Islam is largely misunderstood. In particular by those who do not understand that it is inherently 'radical'. There are moderate Muslims, but there is no such thing as moderate Islam.
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On reflection the estimate that '90% of British Muslim are harmless' is too high. Close to 40% of British Muslims think that the appropriate punishment for apostasy - leaving Islam for another faith or none - is death. Such people are potentially harmful.
 
Of course it is OK to criticize Islam and their failures to respect the views and the life styles of others (even though other religious folks have that same character flaw).

But to just pick and choose verses while ignoring equal or worse verses in the old testament is just silly. It is not what the book says but how people deal with others who do not believe in that religious book.

And there is nothing with spreading the word or Allah or spreading the word of God/Jesus, as long as you respect other people's rights to not be interested in those messages.

But the most stupid thing is condemning Mohammed for how he lived in the 5/6th century. Would marrying young women/children be accepted in this day and age, hell no and thank goodness. But do people think that did not go on in a large part of the world in the 5/6th century?

Loads of things that were normal in that day and age (stoning, crucifying, burning, drowning, quartering, etc. etc. etc.) but would be frowned upon in this day and age.

Most of what the Islam (and other religions) can be blamed for is the behavior of the people who believe in those religions, not the faith in and of itself. At least that is my atheistic opinion about religion and valid criticism.

I could care less if Christians live through lent, I could not care if they do not eat meat on Friday (in the past a lot of Christian families at fish on Friday). I could care less if Christians/Jews/Muslims have a day off on Sunday/Saturday/Friday. I could care less if Muslims adhere to ramadan, as long as they do not party all night through and keeping their neighbors awake.

Fight the excesses of religions, not the daily practices of a religion that hurts nobody. Fight intolerance of religions, don't become intolerant of religious people who do not bother anybody except themselves.
 
Peter King said:
Of course it is OK to criticize Islam and their failures to respect the views and the life styles of others (even though other religious folks have that same character flaw).

But to just pick and choose verses while ignoring equal or worse verses in the old testament is just silly. It is not what the book says but how people deal with others who do not believe in that religious book.

And there is nothing with spreading the word or Allah or spreading the word of God/Jesus, as long as you respect other people's rights to not be interested in those messages.

But the most stupid thing is condemning Mohammed for how he lived in the 5/6th century. Would marrying young women/children be accepted in this day and age, hell no and thank goodness. But do people think that did not go on in a large part of the world in the 5/6th century?

Loads of things that were normal in that day and age (stoning, crucifying, burning, drowning, quartering, etc. etc. etc.) but would be frowned upon in this day and age.

Most of what the Islam (and other religions) can be blamed for is the behavior of the people who believe in those religions, not the faith in and of itself. At least that is my atheistic opinion about religion and valid criticism.

I could care less if Christians live through lent, I could not care if they do not eat meat on Friday (in the past a lot of Christian families at fish on Friday). I could care less if Christians/Jews/Muslims have a day off on Sunday/Saturday/Friday. I could care less if Muslims adhere to ramadan, as long as they do not party all night through and keeping their neighbors awake.

Fight the excesses of religions, not the daily practices of a religion that hurts nobody. Fight intolerance of religions, don't become intolerant of religious people who do not bother anybody except themselves.
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If you actually believe that no Muslims bother anyone except themselves you are strangely isolated from reality. Your only recourse in explaining away each and every act of Islamic terror is the well worn 'not a real Muslim' line. bolstered, whenever possible, by vague references to 'mental issues'. The relatives of the 50 or so victims of Masood on Westminster Bridge might not be entirely receptive to your excuses though.
 
Khaled Al Razi said:
I am an Arab ex-muslim atheist from Lebanon.
The religion of Islam is harmful and authoritarian.
Islam doesn't mean peace it simply means that you have to submit to Allah.
Islam has scientific errors wrt the big bang theory and Darwinism and basic biology and geology.
It is inherently misogynistic.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk
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Welcome to DP. People are free to criticize any religion should they so desire to.

What are your thoughts on the 1.3 billion people who do follow the Islamic creed, and pursue a life of peace, charity and spirituality from their interpretation of its teachings?
 
Peter King said:
Of course it is OK to criticize Islam and their failures to respect the views and the life styles of others (even though other religious folks have that same character flaw).

But to just pick and choose verses while ignoring equal or worse verses in the old testament is just silly. It is not what the book says but how people deal with others who do not believe in that religious book.

And there is nothing with spreading the word or Allah or spreading the word of God/Jesus, as long as you respect other people's rights to not be interested in those messages.

But the most stupid thing is condemning Mohammed for how he lived in the 5/6th century. Would marrying young women/children be accepted in this day and age, hell no and thank goodness. But do people think that did not go on in a large part of the world in the 5/6th century?

Loads of things that were normal in that day and age (stoning, crucifying, burning, drowning, quartering, etc. etc. etc.) but would be frowned upon in this day and age.

Most of what the Islam (and other religions) can be blamed for is the behavior of the people who believe in those religions, not the faith in and of itself. At least that is my atheistic opinion about religion and valid criticism.

I could care less if Christians live through lent, I could not care if they do not eat meat on Friday (in the past a lot of Christian families at fish on Friday). I could care less if Christians/Jews/Muslims have a day off on Sunday/Saturday/Friday. I could care less if Muslims adhere to ramadan, as long as they do not party all night through and keeping their neighbors awake.

Fight the excesses of religions, not the daily practices of a religion that hurts nobody. Fight intolerance of religions, don't become intolerant of religious people who do not bother anybody except themselves.
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:applaud
 
Sweden said:
If you actually believe that no Muslims bother anyone except themselves you are strangely isolated from reality. Your only recourse in explaining away each and every act of Islamic terror is the well worn 'not a real Muslim' line. bolstered, whenever possible, by vague references to 'mental issues'. The relatives of the 50 or so victims of Masood on Westminster Bridge might not be entirely receptive to your excuses though.
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Where on earth do you read that I believe that no Muslims bother anyone except themselves?

My frigging first line was:

Of course it is OK to criticize Islam and their failures to respect the views and the life styles of others (even though other religious folks have that same character flaw).
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So if I think it is fair to criticize them, it stands to reason that I criticize them for their failures to respect the views and life styles of others.

Of course they are not true Muslims, just like Jewish terrorists are not real Jews and Christian terrorists are not real Christians. They may identify themselves as Muslims/Jews/Christians but the majority of the people who have those believes do not see them as "real ..........".

And sadly a lot of suicide terrorists have mental issues, druggies who found "god", people with low mental abilities, etc. etc. etc. These terrorists often misuse vulnerable people to commit their crimes. Whether or not that is the case with Massood is not really that interesting for anyone except for people who have to find such morons in our societies/police/secret service/FBI/AIVD/etc. etc. etc.

And where did I give excuses? Another :bs nonsensical :censored accusation on your part that is as baseless as can be.
 
X Factor said:
That's racist!!!

I'm joking. I'm Christian and, of course, there are plenty of atheists that say the same things about Christianity. I have fairly often been told here that it's good and right to question and criticize Christianity/Christians, even seeing it argued that my faith quite probably makes me a worse person. One the other hand, when criticism of Islam comes up, two responses are nearly inevitable, one is, "but not al Muslims are..." (like, no duh) and second is to deflect usually with "But look what Christians do/have done." Islam is the one religion where criticism quite often results in an accusation of racism, hence my joke earlier. The most common explanation I see for the lack of parity is that Islam is a minority religion in the U.S so it requires more tolerance to which I'd point out that Islam has a pretty large number of non-Islam defenders, which is not true for Christianity.

What I don't understand is why all those things about why it's good and right to question/criticize the beliefs of Christians do not apply to Islam.
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You are totally free to both defend and/or criticize any and all religions you want. Period.

I find it just absolutely brilliant that in post #2 of a thread on Islam, you immediately went for the "us poor poor Christians are the true victims" theme. :roll:
 
Dragonfly said:
You are totally free to both defend and/or criticize any and all religions you want. Period.

I find it just absolutely brilliant that in post #2 of a thread on Islam, you immediately went for the "us poor poor Christians are the true victims" theme. :roll:
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#TheVictimCard
 
JumpinJack said:
Christianity is also anti-big bang theory & Darwinism & biology & geology. The Bible requires wives to "submit" to their husbands, and the Catholic Church does not allow female Priests. The Jewish religion doesn't allow female rabbis, I think.

I think all religions are misogynistic to some degree, and anti-science.

In the older days, Christians killed anyone who wouldn't convert to Christianity. And we all know of all the wars in England over Catholicism vs. Protestantism, resulting in much blood of innocent people being shed. Christianity has been used as a basis to prove the inferiority of minorities, females, homosexuals, and others. Other religions, too.

The radical Islamists seem to be several hundred years behind the times, though. What they are doing now was what the religions were doing hundreds of years ago. Tolerance of others' views has grown in the meantime, but apparently not in Islamic countries, where time has stood still. That is probably related to lack of secular education, withholding human rights from women, the religion being mixed with their government, and not having to get along with other religions in their countries and governments.

I think Islam may be the worst as far as keeping women down and preventing them from living full, happy lives with human rights, educaion, able to earn a living, freedom, and such.
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Wars in England? It wasn't just England but Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion
 
Sweden said:
The difficulty is this: Those of us who criticise Islam are told that we are 'racists' who hate Muslims. This happens all the time on DP from people who throw around words like 'pathological' with abandon.

Islam is a cruel, backward, primitive philosophy; supremely intolerant and absolutist. Your turn: Screech 'Islamophobe' at me and assume a posture of supposed moral superiority.
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I would say ignorant in a quiet voice.
 
Sweden said:
I agree that Muslims in Britain are mostly - say 90% - harmless. But that leaves 300,000 who are potentially very harmful indeed.

I also agree that Islam is largely misunderstood. In particular by those who do not understand that it is inherently 'radical'. There are moderate Muslims, but there is no such thing as moderate Islam.
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How do you know that if you've never read their actual holy book? I read the Arberry translation and it seems to me more moderate than say the old testament, and large parts of the new (Paul's contribution and Revelations come to mind)

Or is the measure for this only how muslim majority governments function? Well then you're correct, but i have to point out that christianity has gone thru the same period of universal extremism and there's certainly traces of it still (africa, eastern europe, american south)
 
1750Texan said:
If you are an atheist, why would you not say ALL religion? Islam is no better or worse than any other religion. No religion is "science" based. Not even Scientology.
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I'm pretty sure that's not the context the OP had in mind. From a being factually incorrect standpoint, yeah they're all as bad. From the view of the violence and oppression they cause, not at all. Find me a Jainist who has sparked a holy war
 
Sweden said:
Those who ask a question followed by an aggressive 'yes or no' should themselves learn civility; others may then conclude that they are worth talking to.
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You are in zero position to lecture me about "civility" until you can answer the following basic question:

Phys251 said:
Congratulations on attacking a point that I do not make. Now let's try this again. Yes or no, do you believe that attacking Muslims--not the religion, but the people--is OK? Yes or no.
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Yes, or no. Very simple question. Now what is your answer? Yes or no.
 
Sweden said:
I agree that Muslims in Britain are mostly - say 90% - harmless. But that leaves 300,000 who are potentially very harmful indeed.

I also agree that Islam is largely misunderstood. In particular by those who do not understand that it is inherently 'radical'. There are moderate Muslims, but there is no such thing as moderate Islam.
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Essentially the moderates don't behead people, but they're more amenable to ISIS doing it.
What's often funny about the religion, is that it's state leaders are more liberal than it's general population, I.E. Saudi Arabia.
 
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