WOW! Pope says virtuous atheists are better than hypocritical Christians

barrycarter said:

This position isn't really new. The Roman Catholic Church has always said that anyone can redeem themselves at any point in their life. Presumably, if you go to Confession or accept the Church at the end of your life, you can still go to "heaven".

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beefheart said:

Yup, you don't need to believe in a god to be a good person. I was raised RC, went to parochial school K-12, got a great education, but....we had molesting priests, a molesting bishop and nothing was done about it, outrage turned to cynicism. After graduating HS, I just saw the whole concept of religion as false, and illogical. I'm still the same person I was when I went to church, but now I don't need that entire fable backstory of religion.

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KevinKohler said:

Same basic story here, but southern baptist, instead of Catholic. No little boys getting molested (so far as I know), but plenty of lying, cheating, and steeling. If your preacher drives a 100,000 dollar car....you should probably question it, lol.

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[SUP]14[/SUP]What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?[SUP]15[/SUP]If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, [SUP]16[/SUP]and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? [SUP]17[/SUP]So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
[SUP]18[/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. [SUP]19[/SUP]You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! [SUP]20[/SUP]Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? [SUP]21[/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? [SUP]22[/SUP]You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; [SUP]23[/SUP]and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. [SUP]24[/SUP]You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. [SUP]25[/SUP]And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?[SUP]26[/SUP]For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.[SUP][29]

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ataraxia said:

So does anyone know when this idea that faith alone was enough began developing in Christianity?

It seems that if you go back to St. Augustine, he believed in the doctrine of predestination. I tried to understand it, and recoiled in horror as I learned what it was really saying: it says basically that NOTHING you do or think can determine your salvation: not your faith, not your works,... God has just decided in advance who is going to hell and who is going to heaven, and you can kill yourself, but it won't make a lick of difference! It is what it is. God's judgment is final, and it was made before you were even born. He just decided in advance which of the people he was creating was going to go to heaven, and which he was just going to use for firewood in the furnaces of hell. Wow!

From what I understand, this idea was sort of there in the background during medieval times, but really took off with Calvin much later. That may be why Calvinists tend to be such sourpusses all the time. Talk about a feeling of complete helplessness. It sounds like a monstrous idea!

But the idea that faith alone was important: I want to say that was with Luther. But I am no scholar of Christianity. Can anyone help?

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beefheart said:

We had a bishop who, while driving drunk, hit a pedestrian and ran. They found him and his car the next day, tons of evidence.

He, of course did not serve a single day in jail...

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KevinKohler said:

Same basic story here, but southern baptist, instead of Catholic. No little boys getting molested (so far as I know), but plenty of lying, cheating, and steeling. If your preacher drives a 100,000 dollar car....you should probably question it, lol.

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Praxas said:

Never understood that position with the Catholic church which is what changed me to stop being a Catholic. Someone who isn't a Catholic lives a good life, helping others, being kind, being generous, goes to hell. While the rapist, child molester, killer makes a confession before getting the needle and is rewarded eternally in heaven. No thanks, don't care for a god like that.

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ataraxia said:

"If you're a Christian who exploits people, leads a double life or manages a "dirty" business, perhaps it's better not to call yourself a believer, Pope Francis suggested in a homily on Thursday in Rome.

"So many Christians are like this, and these people scandalize others," Francis said during morning Mass at Casa Santa Marta, according to Vatican Radio. "How many times have we heard -- all of us, around the neighborhood and elsewhere -- 'But to be a Catholic like that, it's better to be an atheist.' It is that, scandal."

"But what is scandal? Scandal is saying one thing and doing another."

Francis' sermon, as is customary, was an extended riff on Thursday's Mass readings, which include a passage from the Gospel on Mark. In it, Jesus says it is better to be drowned than to cause others to sin.

Drawing on that passage, the Catholic Catechism says scandals include business leaders who encourage fraud, teachers who agitate students and manipulators who turn people away from moral values.

While many of this Pope's pronouncements are often assumed to be novel interpretations of Christian doctrines, Francis was also touching on an ancient debate: Is salvation open to all believers, or only those who do good while on earth?

The Pope suggested the latter, in characteristically blunt language.

He imagined a wealthy Christian knocking at the gates of heaven and saying, "Here I am, Lord! ... I went to Church, I was close to you, I belong to this association, I did this... Don't you remember all the offerings I made?"

To which Jesus may reply, according to the Pope:

"Yes, I remember. The offerings, I remember them: All dirty. All stolen from the poor. I don't know you.' That will be Jesus' response to these scandalous people who live a double life."

Thursday's sermon is far from the first time Francis has targeted Christian hypocrites...

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone," the pope told worshipers at morning Mass on Wednesday. "'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone!"

Francis continued, "We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there."

The Vatican later issued a note clarifying that the Pope was simply saying that God's grace is free to all, even atheists and urging Christians and non-believers to work together. "
Pope: It's better to be an atheist than a bad Christian - CNN.com
______________________
Holy Moly! This pope is really shining a spotlight on some VERY controversial issues. He is like Donald Trump: He says things which then has the rest of the Catholic Church scrambling to clean up for him. Good for him!

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ataraxia said:

So does anyone know when this idea that faith alone was enough began developing in Christianity?

It seems that if you go back to St. Augustine, he believed in the doctrine of predestination. I tried to understand it, and recoiled in horror as I learned what it was really saying: it says basically that NOTHING you do or think can determine your salvation: not your faith, not your works,... God has just decided in advance who is going to hell and who is going to heaven, and you can kill yourself, but it won't make a lick of difference! It is what it is. God's judgment is final, and it was made before you were even born. He just decided in advance which of the people he was creating was going to go to heaven, and which he was just going to use for firewood in the furnaces of hell. Wow!

From what I understand, this idea was sort of there in the background during medieval times, but really took off with Calvin much later. That may be why Calvinists tend to be such sourpusses all the time. Talk about a feeling of complete helplessness. It sounds like a monstrous idea!

But the idea that faith alone was important: I want to say that was with Luther. But I am no scholar of Christianity. Can anyone help?

Click to expand...

ataraxia said:

So does anyone know when this idea that faith alone was enough began developing in Christianity?

It seems that if you go back to St. Augustine, he believed in the doctrine of predestination. I tried to understand it, and recoiled in horror as I learned what it was really saying: it says basically that NOTHING you do or think can determine your salvation: not your faith, not your works,... God has just decided in advance who is going to hell and who is going to heaven, and you can kill yourself, but it won't make a lick of difference! It is what it is. God's judgment is final, and it was made before you were even born. He just decided in advance which of the people he was creating was going to go to heaven, and which he was just going to use for firewood in the furnaces of hell. Wow!

From what I understand, this idea was sort of there in the background during medieval times, but really took off with Calvin much later. That may be why Calvinists tend to be such sourpusses all the time. Talk about a feeling of complete helplessness. It sounds like a monstrous idea!

But the idea that faith alone was important: I want to say that was with Luther. But I am no scholar of Christianity. Can anyone help?

Click to expand...

ataraxia said:

... 'But to be a Catholic like that, it's better to be an atheist.'...

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chromium said:

Yeah, i find the idea of hell to be sick and twisted, but calvinism basically was the ultimate troll on a society that lived for no purpose other than to avoid hell and went around burning people alive - "your efforts mean nothing so **** off already" From the 21st century it seems more twisted than the now jihadist religions

The biblical jesus and the OT god both place a huge amount of emphasis on believing/following them. I can see why someone would take it as the only thing that matters. But most of the early christian debate was around trinitarianism, but yeah, in order to win over pagans they basically had to extol belief in jesus above all else. The dates for the pagan celebrations could stay, a lot of the traditions, polygamy and what have you. But back in the mediterrenean Augustine's predestination was only one of many debates, but it too focused on the matter of free will, whether believers chose god for salvation or god chose them. He saw it as wrapped in the sin of pride, this idea we have control over our fate. So basically, this idea that belief is everything was always out there. You could trace it to ancient Jews or Manichean. However, with Luther the church did start to fear that belief would become seen as the dominant 'free will' requirement, rather than dealing with "sin" (which equated to church control of their followers) and church donations/taxes. Evidence for this lies in council of Trent

If you want something to really object about, look at plinury indulgence. You could bribe the church to have them forgive your sins! In this lust for power, belief wasn't enough but papal primacy and making sure the church was the biggest most exotic building in every hamlet (this is also why the french revolution and absolution of monasteries targeted churches)

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chromium said:

But back in the mediterrenean Augustine's predestination was only one of many debates, but it too focused on the matter of free will, whether believers chose god for salvation or god chose them. He saw it as wrapped in the sin of pride, this idea we have control over our fate. So basically, this idea that belief is everything was always out there. You could trace it to ancient Jews or Manichean.

Click to expand...

ataraxia said:

From what I recall, though, Augustine was a Manichean for a while before converting to Christianity, and one of the reasons he gave for leaving Manicheism was that it looked at humans as a victim of overwhelming more powerful and opposing forces of good and evil out there in the universe, with very little role for individual free will and the universe within. That's why to him, Christianity seemed like a more palatable religion. It just seems very strange then that he would turn around and come up with this idea of predestination. That's the ultimate trivializing of the role of free human will in making a difference in the world, it seems.

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ataraxia said:

"If you're a Christian who exploits people, leads a double life or manages a "dirty" business, perhaps it's better not to call yourself a believer, Pope Francis suggested in a homily on Thursday in Rome.

"So many Christians are like this, and these people scandalize others," Francis said during morning Mass at Casa Santa Marta, according to Vatican Radio. "How many times have we heard -- all of us, around the neighborhood and elsewhere -- 'But to be a Catholic like that, it's better to be an atheist.' It is that, scandal."

"But what is scandal? Scandal is saying one thing and doing another."

Francis' sermon, as is customary, was an extended riff on Thursday's Mass readings, which include a passage from the Gospel on Mark. In it, Jesus says it is better to be drowned than to cause others to sin.

Drawing on that passage, the Catholic Catechism says scandals include business leaders who encourage fraud, teachers who agitate students and manipulators who turn people away from moral values.

While many of this Pope's pronouncements are often assumed to be novel interpretations of Christian doctrines, Francis was also touching on an ancient debate: Is salvation open to all believers, or only those who do good while on earth?

The Pope suggested the latter, in characteristically blunt language.

He imagined a wealthy Christian knocking at the gates of heaven and saying, "Here I am, Lord! ... I went to Church, I was close to you, I belong to this association, I did this... Don't you remember all the offerings I made?"

To which Jesus may reply, according to the Pope:

"Yes, I remember. The offerings, I remember them: All dirty. All stolen from the poor. I don't know you.' That will be Jesus' response to these scandalous people who live a double life."

Thursday's sermon is far from the first time Francis has targeted Christian hypocrites...

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone," the pope told worshipers at morning Mass on Wednesday. "'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone!"

Francis continued, "We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there."

The Vatican later issued a note clarifying that the Pope was simply saying that God's grace is free to all, even atheists and urging Christians and non-believers to work together. "
Pope: It's better to be an atheist than a bad Christian - CNN.com
______________________
Holy Moly! This pope is really shining a spotlight on some VERY controversial issues. He is like Donald Trump: He says things which then has the rest of the Catholic Church scrambling to clean up for him. Good for him!

Click to expand...