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Teaching liberals why we have religion:[W:792, 2336]

Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

James972 said:
this is because they have absorbed religious morality without knowing it. Before religion we were Romans who went to the collusium to watch people being eaten alive for entertainment. When religion took over canon law became civil law. make sense now?
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Religion has always existed, for at least as long as recorded history goes. And not a single religion, with the possibility of Wicca (yet), has gone without members using said religion to justify killing others not of their religion. You might be able to make such a claim of specific denomination.....maybe.
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

James972 said:
before Religion we were Romans then we adopted the 10 Commandments. Now you've got the basics
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10 Commandments predates the Romans. Now you've got the basics.
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

James972 said:
this is because they have absorbed religious morality without knowing it. Before religion we were Romans who went to the collusium to watch people being eaten alive for entertainment. When religion took over canon law became civil law. make sense now?
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Ever hear about little things like the crusades and the Spanish inquisition etc etc
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

truthatallcost said:
So pagan societies were better obviously, right?
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And you get that from what I said how? Many religione have killed in the name of their God, including various pagan ones. Please show me where I said the pagans have any better a history of killing in the name of their God than any other religion.
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

flogger said:
Its a pretty well accepted rule of thumb that far more people have been killed in the name of religion than have ever been saved by it
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Rule of thumb does not make it true. You would need figures to back that up. Especially since being "saved" by any given religion is a subjective value.
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

maquiscat said:
And you get that from what I said how? Many religione have killed in the name of their God, including various pagan ones. Please show me where I said the pagans have any better a history of killing in the name of their God than any other religion.
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I'm not saying you said that. And I'm glad you're admitting that pagans were the original jihadists.

I'd personally prefer to live the modern era than when people worshipped rocks and tree branches, and then killed others over it.
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

maquiscat said:
Rule of thumb does not make it true. You would need figures to back that up. Especially since being "saved" by any given religion is a subjective value.
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How could I possibly access such figures ? One can certainly count up the numerous religious wars through the ages and the fear exploitation and oppression vast swathes of the population were forced to endure over the centuries in the name of religion.

It was most certainly religious fear and dogma that greatly stunted the technological development of man especially between the classical age and the renaissance too
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

flogger said:
How could I possibly access such figures ? One can certainly count up the numerous religious wars through the ages and the fear exploitation and oppression vast swathes of the population were forced to endure over the centuries in the name of religion.

It was most certainly religious fear and dogma that greatly stunted the technological development of man especially between the classical age and the renaissance too
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By that same lack of evidence we could also claim that religion has saved more people than it has killed, as a rule of thumb. Especially if we include all religions within that figure.
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

maquiscat said:
By that same lack of evidence we could also claim that religion has saved more people than it has killed, as a rule of thumb. Especially if we include all religions within that figure.
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That would be more difficult to qualify especially given most of the most intractible conflicts we see today around the world are driven by religious agendas and history shows us it has always been so.
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

flogger said:
That would be more difficult to qualify especially given most of the most intractible conflicts we see today around the world are driven by religious agendas and history shows us it has always been so.
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And yet it would be very hard to show that the death rate, even with genecides (sp) happening, has exceeded birth rates. And given that every religion essentially says that it's members are saved, the sheer number of religious people over history could well be the argument that religion has saved more than it has killed.

Basically both positions are unsupportable.
 
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Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

Lord Tammerlain said:
General social expectations with the force of law behind it. In other words why religion was created and has laws regarding social behaviour
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Societal expectation backed by the force of law and punishment is not morality. Morality is a distinction between right and wrong, good and bad. You MIGHT be on a more correct track if you simply stated that society establishes guidelines to maintain good order and that allowing for killing at will would disrupt order, but that wouldnt explain right and wrong. Additionally, society and societal standards are rather fluid. They are defined by a majority. When individuals are left to define right and wrong, their standard is invariably driven by what they want...not what is right or wrong.
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

yeah OP we are really feeling your "love" right now and with all your antics in S&S
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

James972 said:
Without it you can just as easily kill someone as love him. Simple enough?
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Liberals dont have religion ? People have to be conservative to be regarded as 'believers?It is never about liberalism but about how to be an evolved human being
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

Cephus said:
That's only because they selectively read from their holy book, just like Christians do. The book specifically commands killing, they just ignore that part.
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'dont attack anyone unless they attack you ' does not mean 'kill them!
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

VanceMack said:
Societal expectation backed by the force of law and punishment is not morality. Morality is a distinction between right and wrong, good and bad. You MIGHT be on a more correct track if you simply stated that society establishes guidelines to maintain good order and that allowing for killing at will would disrupt order, but that wouldnt explain right and wrong. Additionally, society and societal standards are rather fluid. They are defined by a majority. When individuals are left to define right and wrong, their standard is invariably driven by what they want...not what is right or wrong.
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Given that human survival is dependant on a functional society, the societal expectation of not being murdered by your clan mate is a "good" thing. Good and evil are evolutionary aspects required for a functioning society. Which is why we can murder the clan across the river and take their wealth and generally not see it as evil (War) but to murder your neighbor for his or her wealth is considered evil. Societal expectation is the driving force, it is why religion works in the first place.
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

You think religion is the only thing that gives people a thing called scruples?
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

Medusa said:
'dont attack anyone unless they attack you ' does not mean 'kill them!
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The hadiths are clear on it. "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot’s people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done (38:4447)." That's why you keep getting gays thrown off of roofs in the Middle East. And of course, Qur’an 5:33 — "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement. " It doesn't take much to simply assume all unbelievers are waging war against Allah. That's where you get ISIS and other radical Muslim groups.
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

No moral religious person of any faith should watch FOX News. All lies...
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

Cephus said:
The hadiths are clear on it. "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot’s people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done (38:4447)." That's why you keep getting gays thrown off of roofs in the Middle East. And of course, Qur’an 5:33 — "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement. " It doesn't take much to simply assume all unbelievers are waging war against Allah. That's where you get ISIS and other radical Muslim groups.
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You got ISIS from the western imperialism,yes again in this verse what you see is something that means 'dont attack them if they dont attack you.
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

Medusa said:
You got ISIS from the western imperialism,yes again in this verse what you see is something that means 'dont attack them if they dont attack you.
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Unless, as I said, they start interpreting "attacking" as "existing". That's how they treat it in the Middle East when they murder gays and infidels. Obviously, those people are not attacking anyone.
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

James972 said:
so then why so afraid to tell us where morals would come from if not from religion??
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According to some scientists, "moral behaviour" appears to be an innate aspect of mammalian life with ZERO connection to religious beliefs

Finding Morality in Animals

In The Bonobo and the Atheist, renowned primatologist Frans de Waal argues that moral behavior in humans is not predicated on religion. Drawing from extensive research on animals—primarily bonobos and chimpanzees, our nearest primate relatives—as well as research on fossil records of early hominids, he shows how evidence of moral sentiments, like empathy and altruism, predate the advent of religion by millennia and co-evolved in non-human primates as well as in humans.

De Waal makes his case for animal morality by citing scientific studies demonstrating animal benevolence. In one experiment, researchers show that a chimp, if given the choice, would rather share food rewards with another chimp than keep it all for himself—as long as he knows that the other chimp actually receives the reward.
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Interestingly, it ain't just us primates who show moral behaviour
In another experiment with rats, researchers find that if a rat is given the choice between two containers—one holding chocolate and one holding a trapped rat who appears to be suffering—the rat will try to help the suffering rat first before seeking the chocolate. Experiments like these show that animals make moral choices and that their behavior cannot be explained through natural selection alone.

“Mammals have what I call an ‘altruistic impulse’ in that they respond to signs of distress in others and feel an urge to improve their situation,” writes de Waal.
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More on de Waal's research
We're Not Good Because Of God March 21, 2013

In a book coming out next week called The Bonobo and the Atheist, primatologist Frans de Waal argues that morality is built into our species. Rather than coming to us top-down from God, or any other external source, morality for de Waal springs bottom-up from our emotions and our day-to-day social interactions, which themselves evolved from foundations in animal societies.

For 30 years, de Waal has authored books about apes and monkey that open our eyes to the bottom-up origins of our human behaviors, ranging from politics to empathy. In this, his 10th volume, he extends that perspective by writing, "It wasn't God who introduced us to morality; rather, it was the other way around. God was put into place to help us live the way we felt we ought to."

"The way we felt we ought to" has a long evolutionary history, so that de Waal's thesis depends crucially on numerous and convincing examples from our closest living relatives.
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Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

James972 said:
Without it you can just as easily kill someone as love him. Simple enough?
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About three out of every 4 Democrats* is religious. In a room of one hundred democrats, you should expect to find about 75 who are religious. So, what makes you think that liberals need religion explained to them?



*I know that not all liberals are Democrats, nor are all Democrats liberal, but this is the closest relevant statistic I know exists.
 
Re: Teaching liberals why we have religion:

CrabCake said:
About three out of every 4 Democrats* is religious. In a room of one hundred democrats, you should expect to find about 75 who are religious. So, what makes you think that liberals need religion explained to them?
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don't know what planet you've been on.
Ever heard of the religious right that is so reviled by Democrats
Ever heard of the war on Christmas
Ever heard liberals say they fear the religious right more than radical Islam.

Ever read Ann Coulters book "Godless"??Though liberalism rejects the idea of God and reviles people of faith, it bears all the attributes of a religion. In Godless, Coulter throws open the doors of the Church of Liberalism, showing us its sacraments (abortion), its holy writ (Roe v. Wade), its martyrs (from Soviet spy Alger Hiss to cop-killer Mumia Abu-Jamal), its clergy (public school teachers), its churches (government schools, where prayer is prohibited but condoms are free), its doctrine of infallibility (as manifest in the "absolute moral authority" of spokesmen from Cindy Sheehan to Max Cleland), and its cosmology (in which mankind is an inconsequential accident).A Pew survey from January was the latest marker in that trend: The polling showed that since 2003 the number of Americans who say the Democratic Party is “friendly toward religion” has fallen from 42 percent to 30 percent. Over the same period, the number who say the Democrats are “unfriendly to religion” has doubled, from 12 percent to 24 percent.

By contrast, 42 percent of Americans say Republicans are faith-friendly and 21 percent say they are unfriendly to faith.

Some delegates in Philadelphia said it’s time for the party to do more to change that dynamic. They said they are viewed too often with suspicion by party officials if they speak about faith or if they talk about hot-button moral issues such as abortion and religious freedom, or on behalf of faith-based programs or school choice.
 
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